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Masked Koopa

Tweaks for finished/reworked characters.

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I think there's no denying that some characters who have already been reworked, or were released as "finished" could use some changes here or there to make them more coherent and useful. Here's what I reckon should be done.

Wigfrid:

 - Fireproof Falsetto:

  • Now grants fire immunity instead of resistance.
  • Now grants resistance to overheating damage.

It's no secret that this song is a contender for one of the more useless items in the entire game. Spittlefish require sailing out to a seaweed and having an ocean fishing rod with appropriate bait and lures, and while it's not expensive per se, it is a huge hassle that should be rewarded with something a little more applicable. While one could argue this reduces Willow's niche, the limitations of when a battle song can be used wouldn't make Willow less likely to be picked.

 - Goodies:

  • Wigfrid can now eat ice cream.

If she's going to make an exception for mushy cake she should make an exception for ice cream. Her diet should be a consistent thing players can keep track of, rather than something that gets changed on a per-needed basis.

Wurt:

 Merms:

  • Merms will now attack any non-Merm that hits a Wurt player, excluding players.

While this may seem to be overpowered, it is already incredibly cheap to hire a Merm with any form of food, and let them take a single blow for you. It would provide a marginal boost to actual viability, and mostly just remove that weird inconsistency where Merms don't seem to treat Wurt as one of their own. If Beefalo get angry at things attacking their young, Merms should too. Unlike spiders, Merms won't hold grudges, so there will be plenty of reason to hire them instead of just tanking an enemy's damage.

 - Merms:

  • Bugfix(?) - Merms will teleport back to their homes if unloaded and not allied to a player. Merms summoned by the king of the Merms will vanish.

The fact that this still hasn't been fixed is honestly ridiculous, especially for a paid character. Merms are clearly able to find their way home, and it's just really unimmersive to have to babysit a Merm all the way back to it's home because you lead it to a nearby forest to chop trees. While you can get around this by making Merm settlements on-location, it's silly to have them follow you so easily through wormholes and teleportations if them getting "lost" is to be intended. These changes could also easily be extended to other followers as well. 

 Wetness:

  • Wurt will now gain wetness while walking on marsh turf.
  • Marsh turf will no longer boost her speed.
  • Wurt's base movement speed will be boosted by up to 20% (diminishing) while wet.

Merms are noticeably faster than pigs, and it seems a little odd not to give Wurt some way of attaining that ability, while her boosted marsh speed it too explicitly early-game. It would probably be fine if she were a singleplayer DS character, but in DST using marsh turf instead of roads isn't a good option when playing with friends, meaning it ends up as an underutilized mechanic. I think that directly giving her a bonus for getting wet would open up a new dimension of possibilities in terms of using water balloons or jumping off of boats to try to gain wetness, or adding a patch of marsh turf that you can walk around in every so often to get your speed up. It would carry the downsides of a greater vulnerability to cold/freezing while exploring the swamp early game, but make it a safer place for Wurt during the summer. It also wouldn't step on the toes of the existing survivors much either. Wormwood has plenty of farming related perks, total sanity control, infinite living logs and a mobile source of AOE damage to where there's plenty of reason to play him other than his speed, Wolfgang is used more for his insane damage, and WX gets a better speed boost with cold immunity and light as well. 

Woodie:

 - Weregoose

  • Weregoose now has a base movement speed of 10.

Unlike the other Wereforms, the goose brings little to the table the longer the game goes on for. The Werebeaver can amp up the logging efficiency with Warly buffs, and logs are just generally great to have a lot of, especially if you don't want to deal with Treeguards. The Weremoose may be similar to a Darksword and crown, but it also brings with it a form of AOE damage and kiting in the form of the charge, as well as great synergy with jellybeans, Wortox or Wigfrid allowing him to tank with 90% reduction at no armour cost. The goose on the other hand, is really only used for the lunar island, because late game the speed boost is hopelessly outclassed by walking canes or beefalo, as they can provide higher speed without the downside of setting your hunger to 0, and being locked into a form with no armour or way to attack. The goose should be a viable form of transport even in the late game, especially considering it has no application in combat, unlike beefalo or the walking cane/mag.

 - Weremoose

  • Weremoose no longer has a speed penalty.

While it is relatively minor, and the form is very cheap compared to gathering armour and weapons, the lack of options and relatively low amount of late game scalability means the moose drops off more than a combat focused form should. While the charge does mitigate this to a degree, the speed penalty really only serves to make kiting with the moose more irritating.

Walter:

 - Poop pellets

  • Now affect an area of about 1 tile around them.
  • Any Wormwood inside the area will be healed for 1 hp.

A fundamentally interesting mechanic is sadly made nigh useless by limiting them to a single target, meaning they cannot be used effectively against bosses that use swarms of enemies, like spider queen, bee queen and dragonfly. Giving them a relatively small range would still require them to be timed well for maximum effectiveness, but make them very handy nonetheless. Letting them heal Wormwood would also enhance those neat multiplayer-focused perks like with Wicker's books and Wurt/Maxwell, by letting players heal wormwood for an extra 8 hp by investing a little more time, as well as allow a form of remote healing, however limited.

 - Freeze rounds

  • No longer cost a moonrock.
  • No longer require a prehastilitator to prototype, instead requiring an alchemy engine.

Moonrocks are too much of a slow-starting resource for such a basic item to have much application. They start off incredibly valuable, being used for the celestial portal, lunar idols, lazy deserters, etc, all items much more important than what is for all intents and purposes just an ice staff that doesn't drain sanity. By the time moonrocks can reasonably be spared for this item, it has already long outlived any usefulness it might have had, as sanity mitigation will almost certainly have been sorted out by then, meaning ice staves will be just as good. Especially when considering the existence of the pan flute, the freeze rounds need to be a cheap enough item to be worth crafting, and I think this change would make it accessible enough to where the cost of a spear makes a significant enough difference for these to be worth making, and for freezing to be considered a more major aspect of Walter.

 - Slow-Down Rounds

  • Now give 15 rounds
  • No longer cost a moonrock.

Same as the previous, moonrocks do not carry a linear enough value for them to be a reasonable ingredient for an item that is relatively niche. Very high value early game, practically worthless late game, only an appropriate ingredient for an ammunition type for a very short amount of time. Purple gems are quite valuable early-game, as they are often obtained through combining 2 other gems, meaning the returns on this recipe are a little low. These changes would make it a much more tempting option and let people better make use of the easier ability to kite melee-focused foes.

Winona:

 - Hunger consumption

  • Can now pick up items, dig, chop, mine, till, pitchfork and hammer 50% faster than other survivors, at the cost of hunger.
  • Being hungry slows said tasks down by 25%.

While some people find the hunger mechanic to be irritating when crafting, Winona being an efficient worker when fed would synergize well with her ability to craft useful structures, as efficient food gatherers/teams would be able to eliminate her downside to more quickly gather all the needed materials to actually create her structures, as well as make her fantastic for general late-game basing. This would make her an appealing option beyond just her structures, and let her take advantage of food in a different way to Wolfgang.

 - Food consumption

  • Now eats 50% faster than other survivors.
  • Can eat stale food with no penalties (but not spoiled food(!)).

To make the hunger cost of crafting less of a downside, Winona should be able to mitigate her need to eat on the job. It would be quite thematically appropriate with her not wanting to waste time with lunch breaks, and being eager to get back to work. Her toughness should also let her overlook stale food, as she is more tolerant of bad food than other survivors, and giving this trait to a character that actually needs food on a regular basis would be nice, since it's more of a bonus on WX-78.

Spotlight

  • Tripled light radius.

While not exactly expensive, the lack of temperature control means this item drops off really quickly, especially given the existence of lanterns and miner hats. An actually decent range would make this item fantastic for early base building at night, as well as a neat boon for fighting deerclops or hounds, or even something that can be made use of in the ruins. 

Warly:

 - Asparagazpacho/Hot dragon chili salad

  • Now last for 8 minutes instead of 5.
  • Now last for 16 minutes when used by warly.

These recipes have very useful effects, but are ultimately too short-lived for how high their opportunity cost is. A boost to a day's worth of duration would make them more competitive with thermal stones and fishes, and make the lack of heating/cooling time something that can be used a little longer. Giving Warly an extended effect would ensure benefits to players who choose not to just mass-produce and bundle Warly food, and can be tied to him "enjoying the food more" because of his refined taste.

Fish Cordon Bleu

  • Now only requires 1 frog leg.
  • Now lasts for 8 minutes instead of 5.
  • Now lasts for 16 minutes when used by Warly

Having this be a viable alternative to the eyebrella would be nice, and the need to farm frogs and go fishing would ensure the eyebrella remains much more practical for most players. Giving Warly an extended effect would ensure benefits to players who choose not to just mass-produce and bundle Warly food, and can be tied to him "enjoying the food more" because of his refined taste. It would also make him another character less bothered by rain, similar to Wurt/Wormwood, which can be great for the first spring, since not everyone can have an eyebrella.

 - Puffed Potato Soufflé

  • Now gives 30 hp instead of 20.
  • Now gives 35 sanity instead of 15.
  • Now takes 15 days to spoil instead of 10.

This is a highly expensive recipe for how incredibly useful the used ingredients are. The two potatoes have a theoretical value of 40 hp when cooked, and can be invested into pierogi, which will ultimately be easier to get the vast majority of the time. The two potatoes can also be combined with twigs and ice/mushrooms/other filler to create a dish that also gives 15 sanity, but at a much lower cost than this recipe. Even creamy potato puree is a better investment of the ingredients, as it already has said 15 day spoil time, but unlike Soufflé, it isn't Warly exclusive. These changes would give it a big advantage in terms of spoil time, giving you 50% more time to make use of your potatoes, as well as the superior source of sanity as compared to fancy spiraled tubers, albeit requiring a bird cage or pengull thievery to attain. 

Monster Tartare

  • Now gives Webber/Spiders 5 sanity and 10 hp.
  • Now takes 15 days to spoil instead of 10.

While by no means a bad dish for Webber, the lack of upsides beyond the high hunger gain make this a little underwhelming for how specific the character combination must be to make use of this particular dish, especially considering meatballs can be made at a better efficiency using any form of filler. Players should be rewarded for taking advantage of this unique combination a little more, similar to how Wickerbottom's books are useful for Wurt or Maxwell, or how The End is Nigh is good for helping out WX players. The longer spoil time will help compensate for the fact that this dish is best used on characters separate to the chef.

 

If I forgot any aspect of the reworked characters that are underwhelming, or you think I'm underselling the value of some of these perks, please let me know! I couldn't really think of anything that needs changing about Wendy, since most of the ghost potions seem to have some sort of use, excluding perhaps the movement one. Willow meanwhile doesn't really strike me as particularly unfulfilled in terms of potential, even if her perks are kinda meh (at least in my opinion).

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5 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Woodie

I like how the base speed of the moose is slower but gets a charge to compensate. It feels balanced.

I would want to buff the goose and moose speed, but I think the main issue is that the forms don't change at all throughout the game, moose is just as strong day 1 as day 1000. I think a good alternative to "upgrade" the forms would be to allow Magiluminecence to be worn while transforming. This would probably not be enough for the goose in the late game (especially as one would probably be using a backpack of sorts) so I think an additional speed buff wouldn't be game breaking. 

The beaver I don't use whatsoever. Bearger is too easy to exploit and the risk, food, health and sanity loss just isn't worth it for slightly faster harvesting. Heck, it probably takes longer having to walk back and pick it all up. Maybe a speed buff and an ability to "eat" the resources to put them in the inventory would be enough, I don't know.

Woodie doesn't have much going for him in the late game, but I don't know how to fix that really.

Add another use for Lucy (maybe leaving her on the floor nearby increases transformation duration 30% or something), invincibility frames while transforming (Wortox gets to have them while teleporting!!) and a downside for Woodie and I think that's all I could ask for.

It's a bummer that Willow has virtually no interesting viable use for fire whatsoever, despite her whole character revolving around it, but that's more of a problem with fire as a whole than her. 

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I like it except for a few things:

Winona getting a speed boost so easily might be a bit too strong. This is more of a Wolfgang perk.

The reason why survivors take a penalty to stale food is because the food is rotting. Its not that Wx-78 doesn't mind, I think his machine body just burns it all up the same.

The reason why so many people like the ice rounds is because they freeze targets faster. 1 round is equivalent to 2 ice staff uses. I like the moon rock reduction but being a prestihattinator craft makes sense and they're not hard to come by. 

I like everything else though. 

 

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Walter's slingshot is slower than an ice staff, that's why it freezes twice as fast.

Stale food != rotting food, hence why I specifically made it so she can only eat it with no downsides when it's stale and not spoiled. Think stale bread - it's still perfectly edible just not enjoyable.

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16 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Wigfrid:

 - Fireproof Falsetto:

  • Now grants fire immunity instead of resistance.
  • Now grants resistance to overheating damage.

It's no secret that this song is a contender for one of the more useless items in the entire game. Spittlefish require sailing out to a seaweed and having an ocean fishing rod with appropriate bait and lures, and while it's not expensive per se, it is a huge hassle that should be rewarded with something a little more applicable. While one could argue this reduces Willow's niche, the limitations of when a battle song can be used wouldn't make Willow less likely to be picked.

Everyone’s so focused on fireproof falsetto, and like sure that would be nice, but honestly I don’t care that much.

The songs that I think are worth attention are the instant effect songs: Rude Interlude and Startling Soliloquy. These are only realistically usable on boss minions do to how inspiration works. It would be so cool if you could use these on normal mobs and it would add such unique and interesting game play. 

There are a number of solutions to this. I say just take it out of her sanity or whatever when she doesn’t have any inspiration.

If anyone has ever *actually* used either of these songs against something other than a boss minion, please let me know. 

Spoiler

I’d also mention ornery beefalo (klei put a Wigfrid on one in a short again btw) but with how that went over last time I made the suggestion...

 

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16 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Asparagazpacho/Hot dragon chili salad

All of this is completely wrong ever since RWYS. It is easy to amass enough to keep an entire server completely regulated for multiple seasons with just one farming session.

16 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Fish Cordon Bleu

Cordon bleu is extremely useful in niche situations such as clearing the ruins (if you're doing it when it's raining), but I agree that as a general purpose recipe for staying dry it is not that. However, I don't think this is the way to make it general purpose. I think Warly getting 2x duration on food buffs would be the right way, since then it would last 10 minutes on Warly allowing him to utilize it to stay dry normally while other people would still mostly only benefit situationally or lategame. This would also encourage staying on Warly more instead of encourage switching off of him more, you're really doing the opposite of what you did to Winona to Warly.

16 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

 - Puffed Potato Soufflé

You are really exaggerating how hard eggs are to get. 1 monster meat is 1 egg so you can make potato souffle. Warly can't eat potatoes so that "40 health" you're talking about is more like 0 on him, and even if tubers are slightly cheaper you'll gain way more sanity eating a mix of tubers & souffle than just tubers. It's a good recipe, especially on Warly.

16 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Monster Tartare

Webber's perk is that he doesn't lose sanity or health from monster foods. Specific dishes shouldn't act differently for specific characters.

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1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

All of this is completely wrong ever since RWYS. It is easy to amass enough to keep an entire server completely regulated for multiple seasons with just one farming session.

Cordon bleu is extremely useful in niche situations such as clearing the ruins (if you're doing it when it's raining), but I agree that as a general purpose recipe for staying dry it is not that. However, I don't think this is the way to make it general purpose. I think Warly getting 2x duration on food buffs would be the right way, since then it would last 10 minutes on Warly allowing him to utilize it to stay dry normally while other people would still mostly only benefit situationally or lategame. This would also encourage staying on Warly more instead of encourage switching off of him more, you're really doing the opposite of what you did to Winona to Warly.

In the case of Asparagazpacho, it was moreso the ice cost than the asparagus cost that made me find it overpriced, I just think it would make more sense to keep it consistent with dragon chili salad as to requiring 2 seasonal ingredients instead of four. While smaller amounts of ice are easy to come by, 48 ice per person to deal with a whole summer seems a little unreasonable considering the requirements to keep it (or the ingredients) fresh, as well as all the other things you'll want ice for, and all the other things you'll want to get done in winter. 

I do think you're onto something with making the food buffs last longer on Warly though, I think I might adjust my suggestions around that.

 

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

You are really exaggerating how hard eggs are to get. 1 monster meat is 1 egg so you can make potato souffle. Warly can't eat potatoes so that "40 health" you're talking about is more like 0 on him, and even if tubers are slightly cheaper you'll gain way more sanity eating a mix of tubers & souffle than just tubers. It's a good recipe, especially on Warly.

Eggs are not hard to get, but have a high initial setup cost, considering it requires 6 gold an an alchemy engine, as well as a visit to the swamp, silk to make a bird trap, and then you'll still have to actually get your monster meat (of course you'll probably have some from the spiders but still). By comparison, you can also use eggs and your potato to make pierogi - you can make 2 pierogi out of those same ingredients by just getting a little more monster meat and 1 other filler of choice. It's the only Warly recipe where the only real use is on Warly himself - I probably wouldn't have issues with it if he had access to other such dishes, but as it stands it's really just there if you want to be a potato farmer as Warly. I think making the output of the dish more equal to the cost, even if Warly himself can't make use of them, is a good idea, especially given he might want to make his dishes for other players.

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Webber's perk is that he doesn't lose sanity or health from monster foods. Specific dishes shouldn't act differently for specific characters.

I think players should be rewarded for using unique inter-character dynamics, and your rule is already broken by favorite foods. And if you don't think that counts, Wurt also doesn't lose health or sanity from eating kelp, something that isn't listed in any of her traits. Right now meatballs are just much better the majority of the time, which I think is a shame.

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Everything seems spot on (specially for Wurt) with the only exception being the speed changes suggested for Winona which, IMO, make no sense for her.

I think she should be able to turn to a portable state some structures, so she can carry and use her catapults, generators and spotlights, then move them around when she needs to. After all, disassembling and being able to re-assemble complex structures requires high mechanical and engineering knowledge. And nobody else should be able to do that.

This opens up a lot of gameplay possibilities, specially not have to create catapults everywhere and be able to move them around when needed instead. Or even carry some around at all times to quickly deploy when needed.

 

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Wigfrid already has an alternative for Ice Cream with Jelly Salad.

Wurt's proposal sounds interesting but the Marsh Turf wetness gain could be an annoyance if someone wants to decorate or expand a swamp base.

I don't think Weremoose speed should be buffed.

As many have mentioned, making Winona faster and able to eat stale food seems unbalanced.

While I don't think the recipes for dishes need a change, buffing the time effect can be more useful. Puff Potato Soufflé could recibe a buff since it's quite a downgrade from Creamy Potato Puré. Monster Tartare is decent since it can fill as much as Meatballs.

Everything else sounds interesting and quite good.

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By popular demand, I have removed the speed boost from Winona, haha.

I also adjusted the changes to the temperature foods/cordon bleu as I think Warly getting an extended benefit from the is a great idea, similar to how Wurt benefits more from fish.

On 5/10/2021 at 2:17 PM, Just-guy said:

Wigfrid already has an alternative for Ice Cream with Jelly Salad.

Wurt's proposal sounds interesting but the Marsh Turf wetness gain could be an annoyance if someone wants to decorate or expand a swamp base.

It's less about giving her access to ice cream, and more about ensuring consistency. Jelly salad is already way more accessible and easier to farm, but I think any sugar based foods should be edible by her.

The only time Wurt will care about being wet is during her first winter, and at that point you should have a thermal anyway (or you can just not go into the swamp during your first winter). During your first spring you'll probably be wet most of the time anyway, and once you reach summer it'll be of benefit for cooling you down. After that you'll be able to grab some Sunfish and expand your base to your heart's content. I'm aware it wouldn't be great for anyone else which is why I specified her as being the only one to gain wetness.

On 5/9/2021 at 8:54 AM, ShadowDuelist said:

Everything seems spot on (specially for Wurt) with the only exception being the speed changes suggested for Winona which, IMO, make no sense for her.

I think she should be able to turn to a portable state some structures, so she can carry and use her catapults, generators and spotlights, then move them around when she needs to. After all, disassembling and being able to re-assemble complex structures requires high mechanical and engineering knowledge. And nobody else should be able to do that.

This opens up a lot of gameplay possibilities, specially not have to create catapults everywhere and be able to move them around when needed instead. Or even carry some around at all times to quickly deploy when needed.

 

Not a bad idea mind you, but maybe a bit ambitious for this sort of scope. I tried to limit myself to relatively simple mechanics to maximize the chance of klei taking an idea or two.

On 5/8/2021 at 12:21 PM, Friendly Grass said:

Everyone’s so focused on fireproof falsetto, and like sure that would be nice, but honestly I don’t care that much.

The songs that I think are worth attention are the instant effect songs: Rude Interlude and Startling Soliloquy. These are only realistically usable on boss minions do to how inspiration works. It would be so cool if you could use these on normal mobs and it would add such unique and interesting game play. 

There are a number of solutions to this. I say just take it out of her sanity or whatever when she doesn’t have any inspiration.

If anyone has ever *actually* used either of these songs against something other than a boss minion, please let me know.

I was considering adding them to this post when I started, but I wasn't sure how to do it without needing to have a full overhaul of the inspiration system, which seemed a little beyond the scope of what I was trying to do with this post, mostly simple stat changes. The idea I sort of had was that inspiration would only fall down to around 0.7 segments, allowing players to "bank" some, and then to make the instant use songs cost only 0.35 or so inspiration. They're not as conceptually useless as fireproof falsetto, just inhibited by the need to build that meter up.

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On 5/10/2021 at 4:17 AM, Just-guy said:

Wigfrid already has an alternative for Ice Cream with Jelly Salad.

Wurt's proposal sounds interesting but the Marsh Turf wetness gain could be an annoyance if someone wants to decorate or expand a swamp base.

I don't think Weremoose speed should be buffed.

As many have mentioned, making Winona faster and able to eat stale food seems unbalanced

Totally agree

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Just now, Friendly Grass said:

Just to be clear, you yourself have actually successfully used the instant effect songs for spiders, merms, and pigs?

Please elaborate.

yes. For example, i like to kill spiders at dusk because in that way you dont waste time unless you are overwhelmed (thing that doesnt happend if there isnt many spiders) because they come to you and you can kill them all by kitting and doing 1 or 2 hits (with wigfrid using 90% of weapons you kill them with 2 hits). As wigfrid you can do the same but without being carefully since, if many come to you, you can use the song and use the CC time to kill few of them. The song only needs 1 bar which is easy to get with a hambat (more damage=more bar)

same can be applied for merms and pigs. I dont base at pigking but when i pass throw, and more if im playing a character like wigfrid, i like to kill the village so, instead of being carefully of dont getting aggroed my many of them you just go  yolo because with few hits you can CC them

Also, when she was refreshed i tried few things to see the potential, and one was fighting in the swamp with merms to get fish and frog legs for health to fight beequeen (i think was beequeen) i bring that song and wasnt too bad. Not that useful because of how merms run getting out of the range but can help to have more window to hit more

For spiders was so useful with that farming method. Anyways wigfrid is already so powerful and easy so i dont think she needs more. That doesnt mean that the songs could have some love to be more useful in boss fights but with a little of practise it has their very good uses and are an effect for free making them a very good way of saving resources or time (like being less damaged in beequeen fight or protecting the team against klaus deers spells). Maybe for mobs seems less useful because people usually only kill few but i dont see the point of expecting being able to use the songs to kill 3 pigs or 5 spiders when, for that, wigfrid has her other powerful perks but for killing +20 spiders or +10pigs/merms it has uses

Maybe klei was afraid of making too much changes to her core gameplay but if was on me i would remove entirely her perks with 0 inspiration and, for every level in the bar, she would get damage, defense, leech life, sanity, etc making you choose between the effects of the songs or raw stats.Right now inspiration is just an useless bar half of the time with 0 interaction with wigfrid but we all know reading wendy 1st rework commends what would happend if klei decided to make something cool but balancing wigfrid in the way

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16 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

It's less about giving her access to ice cream, and more about ensuring consistency. Jelly salad is already way more accessible and easier to farm, but I think any sugar based foods should be edible by her.

She doesn't eat Ice Cream because she has sensible teeth:

Captura.PNG.07905e8bd1c7d2cdc0b3a8410d0d0702.PNG

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