Spot things wrong with my industrial section plz

[giygus]

Pretty new to the game, first time trying to build "heavy industry", I guess you would call it.  I am going to list the things I can tell/feel I did wrong.  But would you please take a look at this area and spot anything I have not noticed?  Any other advice is greatly appreciated!

1.  The metal forge HAS to go.  It will need its own heat management system, the poor wheezeworts can't handle the coolant output for long.  Especially while   they are eating the heat from everything else. (didn't realize the coolant got so hot).  Watching the metal statues near the forge heat up so fast made me   laugh though.
2.  Speaking of weezeworts, the little cooling box was built badly, autosweeper arm can't feed them all.  Maybe it could be a bit bigger as well.  The whole   weezewort setup was an experiment of its own.  I think it will work OK for the other equipment though (NOT forge).
3.  Needs another carbon skimmer, built lower, move them both down perhaps. 
4.  I never even powered up the plastic makers.  Didn't realize the steam would want a pipe, just thought it would spray out like the polluted water everything   else generates.  Unsure how much heat the machines will put out.  Working idea right now is rejigger the forge coolant loop to take care of them.

That's everything that occurred to me watching it run for a cycle or 3.

Thoughts?

[gabberworld]

plastic can be get from glossy dreckos, also you really need close that area by better walls, as you heating this atm everything

 

[yoyo13]

Wheezwort cant keep up but u got better, crude oil, so u can use it to keep temp stable, feed it to your rafinnery than to your petro gen, and then it turn to steam and then.... 

[goboking]

 

8 hours ago, giygus said:

 The metal forge HAS to go.  It will need its own heat management system, the poor wheezeworts can't handle the coolant output for long.  Especially while   they are eating the heat from everything else. (didn't realize the coolant got so hot).  Watching the metal statues near the forge heat up so fast made me   laugh though.

The heat added to a refinery's coolant depends on the type of metal being refined.  Refining gold doesn't produce nearly as much heat as refining, say, steel. 

Rather than trying to cool the coolant with wheezeworts, you can destroy it instead.  Hot polluted water can be used to irrigate pincha pepper plants, for example (though you'll want to watch out for coolant used in the refinement of steel, as it gets quite hot).  Another option is to vent the hot coolant into space, though that's quite wasteful and should only be used as a last resort.

You can also cool the coolant in an aquatuner before refilling the refinery.  Using the heat generated by the aquatuner to power a steam turbine allows you to recoup some of the power necessary to run the aquatuner.  More importantly, it deletes significant amounts of heat from the system.  You'll eventually want to explore a climate control system that utilizes aquatuners and steam turbines to cool not just your industrial area, but the hot water captured from steam vents if irrigating farm tiles and gasses if using liquid oxygen and hydrogen in your space program.

 

8 hours ago, giygus said:

 I never even powered up the plastic makers.  Didn't realize the steam would want a pipe, just thought it would spray out like the polluted water everything   else generates.  Unsure how much heat the machines will put out.  Working idea right now is rejigger the forge coolant loop to take care of them.

The polymer press' pipe is for carbon dioxide, not steam.  The steam is vented into the surrounding space and quickly condensates (unless the surrounding temperatures are extremely high).  The press itself produces quite a bit of heat, so I'd attach them to heat sensors until you get a handle on climate control.  Unless you really need lots of plastic quickly, I'd scale back to a single press until you're better able to manage the heat generated by your industrial zone.

 

Other quick and dirty techniques to help manage a base pre-aquatuner/steam turbine setups are:

• Build industrial areas in cold biomes.  This will eventually wreck the biome, melting the ice and snow, but it can serve as a stopgap until you've got a proper climate control system in place.
• Build an aquatuner in a large pool of water.  You don't want to boil the water until you've got steam turbines in place, so use a heat sensor to kill the aquatuner if the water gets too hot.
• A cool slush geyser can be make heat management a non-issue.  If you've got one on your map, run the cold water through radiant pipes in your industrial zone, then destroy or repurpose the water elsewhere.
• In a pinch, you can build temp shift plates out of ice or polluted ice.  You can also fill storage compactors next to your power generators and industrial machines.  The ice will melt and the cool water will lower the surrounding temperatures for a bit.  Since you're using gas and petroleum generators, I'd stick with polluted ice since you've already got a pump for it.  Be warned that building temp shift plates is a labor-intensive process and that the ice might melt en route to it's destination, creating a mess in your base.

 

[Craigjw]

5 hours ago, yoyo13 said:

Wheezwort cant keep up but u got better, crude oil, so u can use it to keep temp stable, feed it to your rafinnery than to your petro gen, and then it turn to steam and then.... 

If your input oil is a generous 30c, that's a reasonable idea, however if your oil is >70c and you aren't using exotics like niobium or thermium, then most your machines will probably break due to the 75c breaking temperature of most machines.

I generally use an Aquatuner with steam turbine to cool these areas, using either water or supercoolant, as the coolant for an AT as they have the better shc than petrol or oil. This cooling loop generally services quite a large area of industrial stuff, I normally set the temp to about 5c for the coolant.

For the forge, I use this as a source of heat for state transitioning oil to petrol, which produces twice as much petrol as an oil refinery and doesn't require dupe power.  The forge uses petrol as it's coolant, heating it to around 470c, this is sent around a loop, through a oil to petrol conversion chamber, phase changing oil to petrol, the petrol then overflows the chamber and exchanges heat with the incoming oil, both cooling the petrol to around 130c and heating the oil from 95 to ~400c.  

Here's an example.

In the above example, I show two examples, one with a forge and one with magma.  The forge that can be seen on the right are cooled by an aquatuner, which is somewhere else entirely.  You can see one of the coolant pipes that runs vertically, just to the left of the sweeper.

The only stipulation with this, is that you must make some metal daily. In the end, I had to build a dedicated forge, as it was too efficient and I needed more metal than the thing required, I think I needed to forge about 10 iron bars or 3 steel bars daily for it to run constantly with an output of 10kg/s of petrol, with the only power requirement of one forge and pump.

The dedicated forge I built afterwards, the area was on the same cooling loop as the above example and the forge coolant just powered a steam turbine making forging less power hungry overall.

If you decide to build an oil to petrol converter, submerge your oil vent.  The above example, I have been running for about 2000 cycles without a single incident, which is far more reliable than designs which drip the oil in from above.  You can tell where people have issues with dripping it from above, they've had to make the heat exchange channels 2 tiles high, to allow dupe access to mop up bits of oil that have spilt out of the conversion chamber and now contaminates the oil.  submerging the vent prevents this completely.

[gabberworld]

i would not use for cooling the petrol, unless if its very hot area.

simply because petrol cant steal enoh energy away than polluted water ,nuclear waste or even the super coolant can todo

[Steve8]

Wheezeworts used to be able to cool everything. But that was OP. So their power was reduced. You can still use them for spot cooling like keeping the heat in a farm under control. But not for industry.

For early game metal refining you just can pump up water from a larger polluted water pool in a slime biome and then dump it right back. The pool will heat up over a time, but depending on its size you can work with it for a bit. Afterwards the water can be electrolyzed away. Once you have access to the oil biome, the oil there can be used in the same way, but the heat there is much less of an issue.

For a permanent industrial area use petroleum as coolant for the metal refinery, run it through a steam chamber with radiant piping and destroy the heat with a steam turbine. That also gets you back some of the energy invested or even lets you be power positive. The same steam chamber can house an aquatuner to run a proper cooling loop (using polluted water or water!) through your industrial area.

You may want to put the oil refinery in its own sealed of area. It produces natural gas and in your setup that gets mixed into the regular atmosphere. Instead you can build a liquid locked area and house the oil refinery together with fertilizer makers

A note on the coolant: water is better for regular cooling than petroleum because of its much higher specific heat capacity. It stores more energy for each degree of heat. It should be your go to for standard situations. Polluted water is great for its low freezing point, but even in an industrial area water or salt water can be fine. In the metal refinery itself however you use petroleum for its high vaporization point of ~540°C.

[Craigjw]

4 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

i would not use for cooling the petrol, unless if its very hot area.

simply because petrol cant steal enoh energy away than polluted water ,nuclear waste or even the super coolant can todo

You aren't doing it correctly, plus the reason isn't due to petrol not being able to absorb enough energy.

The main reason why petrol isn't used is because the aquatuner uses a constant power drain to cool a single packet of liquid by 14c regardless of it's shc, cooling petrol with an aquatuner is less efficient than using water.  A single packet cooled by an aquatuner, using water will absorb 3 times more heat.  using petrol, the net result is that the aquatuner would run about 3 times more for the same cooling. 

However, Just about any application that you can cool with water, will be able to be acceptably cooled by petrol regardless of how efficient the system is overall.  I've cooled Iron & magma volcano's and water vents using petrol in the aquatuners, so unless you have something else that has an even larger heat output than my example, your reasoning does not stand up to trial.

If I don't have supercoolant and want temps of 0-50, I'll use water, as it has the same properties as pulluted water, just a ton safer and won't pollute my nicely vacuumed out clean areas if I spill a pipe while re-routing it etc.  using polluted water as coolant instead of water is just foolish if you don't need it below 0.

In the past, when I've wanted a large area of my base cooling, then I'll use an heat exchange with a separate loop for the aquatuner,  The main base cooling loop will cycle water through a heat exchanger.  The heat exchanger will be cooled by an aquatuner, running polluted water initially, but then when I get a little bit of supercoolant, I swap out the polluted water to SC.  I get the benefit of aquatuner cooling efficiency with supercoolant and I don't need to drain the main loop at all.

I have used this method several times in order to maximize my use of minimum amounts of supercoolant and maximize the efficiency of the aquatuner/supercoolant.

[yoyo13]

My bad, i didnt know poly press overheat at 75C, so its useless and in regard to petrol vs PW, sure oil take less energy, but it does way more faster  wich matter more in a short loop.

1 hour ago, gabberworld said:

i would not use for cooling the petrol, unless if its very hot area.

simply because petrol cant steal enoh energy away than polluted water ,nuclear waste or even the super coolant can todo

 

[sheaker]

Maybe You can use something like this design?

 

[yoyo13]

4

8 minutes ago, sheaker said:

Maybe You can use something like this design?

 

Yours is handly but quit slow 

i use this atm nothing special, but dupe can work non-stop.

[gabberworld]

59 minutes ago, yoyo13 said:

4

Yours is handly but quit slow 

i use this atm nothing special, but dupe can work non-stop.

you seems use polluter  water same way  like i todo in my base. i also use that for metal making

 

better solution would be something like this but for that you need first make good materials for not over heat

 

[giygus]

2 hours ago, Craigjw said:

The main reason why petrol isn't used is because the aquatuner uses a constant power drain to cool a single packet of liquid by 14c regardless of it's shc, cooling petrol with an aquatuner is less efficient than using water.  A single packet cooled by an aquatuner, using water will absorb 3 times more heat.  using petrol, the net result is that the aquatuner would run about 3 times more for the same cooling. 

Wouldn't water vaporize into steam and damage the liquid pipes?  The whole reason I was using petro and not water or oil was its higher temp ranges.

[Steve8]

56 minutes ago, giygus said:

Wouldn't water vaporize into steam and damage the liquid pipes?  The whole reason I was using petro and not water or oil was its higher temp ranges.

But you only need that in the metal refinery itself. For the rest water is perfectly fine

Here is a good tutorial which also shows how to build that stuff in game.

 

Also shows you how to cool the plastic press. A water cooling loop through granite floors does wonders. Even without radiant piping

[degr]

Main mistake with industrial block - attempt to keep it ~22C. It should be ~140 (if you did not produce plastic inside, it could be 200).

1. make vacuum
2. make refinery from ceramics (275 overheat temperature)
3. spill water
4. Build long enough radian pipes for your metal refinery, and make steam.
5. build steam turbines on top
6. make enough steel
7. build generators and other staff inside of it
8. make slicksters farm to remove CO2

 

Spoiler

550 cycle:

Each refinery use petroleum. Long enough radiant pipes make all environment hot. This radiant pipes touch ground of hot room, and polluted water immediately transform into steam.

I build it from top to bottom, from left side to right.

Spoiler

150 cycle

200 cycle

250 cycle

350 cycle

 

 

 

 

[gabberworld]

1 hour ago, giygus said:

Wouldn't water vaporize into steam and damage the liquid pipes?  The whole reason I was using petro and not water or oil was its higher temp ranges.

there is no any big difference between water vs pollute water, except the temp range ,

they both have kind off same values 

soo yes use polluted water if you have

[Occam Blazer]

Refining many metals actually produces power, so don't let that heat go to waste. You have plastic and steel - now is no the time to faff with wheezeworts. Every time you make iron or steel you miss out on some free power. (-:

When I start the "mid-game" (after food, oxygen and atmo-suits are sorted) I build a simple manufacturing building. It's almost always a modest sized steam room with some radiant pipe for the refinery coolant and an aquatuner to keep the place cool. Two or three turbines will convert all that refinery heat into power.

Setup in the current game:

Spoiler

I used to automate everything so the refinery would keep a minimum backstock of each material on hand, but now I just glance at resources when I build something to see if I need to send a dupe into the production facility. I use a sweeper to load up raw materials, but that's about it - everything else is dupe labor.

I mean, look at this janky layout. I decided to add a third turbine because reasons and here we are 500 cycles later slapping on a molecular forge and calling it good. I think all that refined metal is copper or gold - I don't remember which. All you need to bootstrap the refinery is some steel and a little radiant pipe.

Sometimes it gets a little crazy, but I like the following stackable refinery design. It supports five refineries dedicated to a single material, each with its own, coolant holding tank, and backstock management. The coolant processing has two hot coolant buffers for coolant waiting to get into the steam room, two cold coolant buffers for liquid waiting to get back to the refinery, and coolant temperature manangement. I even built it in survival.

I also keep power production separate from refining. The two applications need just a little different handling and there's more than enough space to sprawl.

Spoiler

I rarely make a petroleum boiler, but this playthrough I decided to have a go again. It's still a pain in the ass, but I wanted to use polluted water to make oxygen for this run.

Look at this nonsense. The building isn't even fully enclosed! I also ran it for about 300 cycles with just one carbon skimmer and the bottom of the base is all grey.

Francis John has a great manufacturing setup tutorial.

[Steve8]

1 hour ago, degr said:

Main mistake with industrial block - attempt to keep it ~22C. It should be ~140

It's not a mistake  They're just different playstyles. A hot industrial area may be more efficient, but that doesn't make a cool one wrong.

And before trying a hot one people should try out a cooling solution. Aquatuner and steam turbine cooling is still needed in plenty of other applications. And cooling industry is a great way to learn it.

[giygus]

1 hour ago, degr said:

I build it from top to bottom, from left side to right.

How to draw a horse, by Degr:

1. Draw 2 circles
2. Draw the rest of the horse

Ez, right?

I have very little idea what I am looking at.  And what I CAN understand, I have no idea why you would do it.  14 plastic makers?!? Why?

But seriously, there area few things I have been learning:

1. Water coolant is OK for regular power production and industry.  Oil or Petro is only needed for really hot things like the refinery.
2. Ceramics can be used to build machines with?  Or do you mean the cooling pipes should be ceramic so they don't melt?

And thats about it so far.  Ill keep looking into peoples builds.

[Steve8]

It's best to ignore such excesses. One or two plastic machines are enough. You can also use zero if you ranch dreckos instead. And there are a lot of people who will tell you absolutely need to do this and that. It's not true. Some things are obviously dictated by the physics of the game, but in other areas you have plenty of choice on how you approach things

In general there are two ways to build industrial blocks

• Run everything cool with a large water cooling loop cooled by an aquatuner
• Run things hot in a steam environment and use the steam to create further power (through turbines that also cool down the steam)

The second one is interesting as you don't need to use lots of power for cooling and you get even more power out of it. The heat from the machines becomes a good thing. You can also do some nice things like ranch molten dreckos slicksters inside the steam room. But it's also expensive as everything needs to be built from steel. And you still need some cooling! The steam turbines themselves need to be cooled after all. So you still need an aquatuner (it just needs to do less work). For that reason it's probably a better idea to not to do this right away but learn to build a cool brick first. It will teach you how to use an aquatuner and steam turbines. And what materials to use for cooling loops, which is something you can also in other areas of the game. Once you've figured that out you can try other things later on.

[giygus]

21 minutes ago, Steve8 said:

It's best to ignore such excesses. One or two plastic machines are enough. You can also use zero if you ranch dreckos instead. And there are a lot of people who will tell you absolutely need to do this and that. It's not true. Some things are obviously dictated by the physics of the game, but in other areas you have plenty of choice on how you approach things

In general there are two ways to build industrial blocks

• Run everything cool with a large water cooling loop cooled by an aquatuner
• Run things hot in a steam environment and use the steam to create further power (through turbines that also cool down the steam)

The second one is interesting as you don't need to use lots of power for cooling and you get even more power out of it. The heat from the machines becomes a good thing. You can also do some nice things like ranch molten dreckos inside the steam room. But it's also expensive as everything needs to be built from steel. And you still need some cooling! The steam turbines themselves need to be cooled after all. So you still need an aquatuner (it just needs to do less work). For that reason it's probably a better idea to not to do this right away but learn to build a cool brick first. It will teach you how to use an aquatuner and steam turbines. And what materials to use for cooling loops, which is something you can also in other areas of the game. Once you've figured that out you can try other things later on.

I have a dedicated cooling aquatuner built in another part of my base.  The Weezewort cooling was a (unsuccessful) test.  I think it the weezes will work fine for non-power/industrial cooling, such as cooking and the like.

I do have a glossy drecko farm, about 6-8 of them at any one time.  I want a lot of plastics to start building the transit tubes, but I didn't really build my base with them in mind, so they are less useful to me know then I thought they would be. 

I think you mean Molten "Slicksters", right? 

[Steve8]

46 minutes ago, giygus said:

I think you mean Molten "Slicksters", right? 

Yeah. Ooops

8 or so glossy dreckos are really enough. You can also starvation ranch them by moving the new eggs into their own room and just provide some shearing stations. They are born with scales and you can shear them at least once before they starve. That alone results in an absurd amount of plastic

Personally I like ranching so I don't even build polymer presses much anymore. But they aren't to difficult to handle if you have the cooling in place already.

Quote

I think it the weezes will work fine for non-power/industrial cooling, such as cooking and the like.

The heat the industrial machines put out is simply on another scale. The unit "kDTU" doesn't really tell you much by itself, but you can compare different machines with it.

Quote

I have a dedicated cooling aquatuner built in another part of my base

Well, then you know what to do. For me the biggest lightbulb moment was realizing that you don't have to run the refinery coolant directly through an aquatuner or anything like that (which only cools by 14°). But that you can dump the heat directly into a steam room.

 

Also, a simple alternative to carbon skimming is to dump the excess CO2 into space. You still need a lot of pumps though as petroleum generators create a huge amount of it. 500 g/s means one pump or 1.7 skimmers per generator

[gabberworld]

38 minutes ago, giygus said:

I have a dedicated cooling aquatuner built in another part of my base.  The Weezewort cooling was a (unsuccessful) test.  I think it the weezes will work fine for non-power/industrial cooling, such as cooking and the like.

I do have a glossy drecko farm, about 6-8 of them at any one time.  I want a lot of plastics to start building the transit tubes, but I didn't really build my base with them in mind, so they are less useful to me know then I thought they would be. 

I think you mean Molten "Slicksters", right? 

i think i started build transit tubes somewhere 4000 cycles , other stuff seem for me more important

[yoyo13]

No one mentionned it, but in  Space out dlc drecko produce phosphorite for rocket oxidizer with 1.1 ratio, enough to make a 12 hex round with petro engine.

 

[degr]

2 hours ago, giygus said:

Water coolant is OK for regular power production and industry

No need to cool your production chamber, let it be hot. Make metal refineries from ceramics, generators from steel. It could endure +275C.

2 hours ago, giygus said:

Oil or Petro is only needed for really hot things like the refinery

yes, use petroleum for refineries. I found crude oil may be not enough, especially on start of this "hot box"

2 hours ago, giygus said:

Ceramics can be used to build machines with

ceramics can be used to make metal refinery. Metal refinery made from ceramics could work in +275C environment.

2 hours ago, giygus said:

14 plastic makers?!? Why?

I was out of plastic, and badly need around 20 tons of it to make ladders, transition tubes and beds for 20 dupes. In same time there were 15 tons of petroleum, in liquid tanks, so I process it as fast as I can. Why not, actually?

>draw the rest of a horse

I upload image with liquid pipes schema, may be it would be more verbose.