'Dont like it, dont use it' is not always a good argument

[Magheat2009]

So lets take this argument to its extreme to realise the problems in it. By the reasoning of 'don't like it don't use it', Printing Pod should offer you Niobium, Fullerene and Isoresin from the get go, you could chose to not take in those care packages if you wish so, others can have the 'freedom' to play the way they want. So, does anything seem wrong in what I have just proposed?

What is wrong, is that in the name of choice, you have been asked to design the game yourself. Game design, is an art, and works around how human brains work, what is grind to the mind, what is reward. 

This is what I find frustrating about the current iteration of germs in the game, I do not know what I am supposed to do with them, ignore them or pretend that they cause harm. I do not know what the correct way to play the game is. I keep flip flopping, ruining the imersion of the mechanic. 

Don't like it, dont use it, works in scenarios where the intended way to play the game is clearly implied. Every ONI player understands playing in sandbox  will make them miss out on a lot of the game. No sweat clearly implies it is a toned down less stressful version of the game. Both these things provide great flexibility to players. It might even be implied in more subtle ways like POI materials, destroying POI is more likely to be considered something they should not do than getting something the printing pod offered.

 

This was posted in this subforum, as the substance of the post is of most relevance here due to the ongoing discussion around and development of Spaced Out.

[Gurgel]

Sorry, but you are wayyy off there. The argument is not "put in everything and the kitchen sink, because people can just not use it". The argument is "well-defined, non-essential features that some people like and some people do not can just be ignored by those that do not". The example was the glass in the teleporter windows, a very, very minor thing.

Also as to "the way the game is intended to be played", I am not even going to grace that with an original answer: 

 

[babba]

I find it is a dead end, hollow phrase. I have never spent life time with people which would use such a phrase.

if someone would eat a pizza with me and I mention "The ham is not good, xyz is wrong." and the person with me says "Don't like it, don't order it"... I would be gone in 3 seconds, forever.

In a Bud Spencer movie... Terence would give Bud a special look after someone would mention that phrase to them. They would pretend for 10 minutes that nothing happened and they would talk about the weather. Then the physical workout fun begins

Dumb and dumber 1 was a great movie by the way, my opinion.

[JRup]

30 minutes ago, babba said:

xyz is wrong

xyz as in pineapple. hmm.

My response to the phrase pretty much summed up in one pic:

Spoiler

We can also say that latex companies dislike the phrase as well.

 

[Magheat2009]

10 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Sorry, but you are wayyy off there. The argument is not "put in everything and the kitchen sink, because people can just not use it". The argument is "well-defined, non-essential features that some people like and some people do not can just be ignored by those that do not". The example was the glass in the teleporter windows, a very, very minor thing.

Also as to "the way the game is intended to be played", I am not even going to grace that with an original answer: 

 

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. I indicated towards the end there that POI glass windows is an example of cases where 'don't like it don't use it' might be a valid argument. This post was not a countinuation of any other discussion. 

[Primalflower]

Is there a specific case ingame that you are referring to when you say this? 

[spkthed]

ONI is legos for adults. What's the right way to play? The way you enjoy. What's the wrong way to play? To not have fun. 

That's literally all there is to this

[babba]

18 minutes ago, spkthed said:

ONI is legos for adults. What's the right way to play? The way you enjoy. What's the wrong way to play? To not have fun. 

That's literally all there is to this

Well said. So many things and ways to combine and to have joy + forum fun

I still haven`t built a big monument...We had asked so often, years ago - I was so happy to see them built in some player screenshots. I hope I can soon start a fresh save which lasts a while or for long, now that Klei seems to be pumping water in to the dlc classic map(s). So many new sauna possibilities, can`t wait to construct my first nuclear waste pool.

Would love to eat a big mac now !

[Gurgel]

8 hours ago, Magheat2009 said:

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. I indicated towards the end there that POI glass windows is an example of cases where 'don't like it don't use it' might be a valid argument. This post was not a countinuation of any other discussion. 

I somehow missed that. My apologies.

1 hour ago, spkthed said:

ONI is legos for adults. What's the right way to play? The way you enjoy. What's the wrong way to play? To not have fun. 

That's literally all there is to this

That nicely sums it up. Some people seem to have trouble with others using this approach though and feel a need to tell them what they should enjoy and what not. 

[sakura_sk]

2 hours ago, spkthed said:

ONI is legos for adults.

I recently found out that I definitely didn't know how to play with legos, though.. 

Spoiler

 

 

[Sasza22]

I think it all becomes an issue if we get easy ways to circumvent an entire tech tree with little work. A good example would be the times when we could build stuff out of abyssalite. A regular abyssalite pipe was better for insulation than insulated ceramic pipes. There was no reason to build insulated stuff ever. This is why it had to go.

Now some things kinda do the same but not quite. Free glass makes building a glass kiln early not worthwhile. A teleporter on the vanilla start makes early rockets useless. But those are both different since both rockets and more glass get more useful eventually so it`s more a matter of balance. Both can be balanced better so ye won`t feel like crippling ourselves by not using that, unlike abyssalite that needs to be super insulative or it would break the game.

[babba]

Hihihihihi @sakura_sk

The nice thing is reading that all kind of ages play the game, including little children. Klei made the game in a way that anyone can play it, regardless of their age.

Some asked for mini dupes and mating, Sims style. Still no wheel chairs and crutches in the game !

   ONI base decorators and decorinas

https://simpsonswiki.com/wiki/Glamorous_Godfrey

   ONI big map builders and builderinas

   Mecha Builders for the game

https://muppet.fandom.com/wiki/Mecha_Builders

[Oxygenbreather]

22 hours ago, Magheat2009 said:

This is what I find frustrating about the current iteration of germs in the game, I do not know what I am supposed to do with them, ignore them or pretend that they cause harm. I do not know what the correct way to play the game is. I keep flip flopping, ruining the imersion of the mechanic. 

Well, I actually liked it the way before they overhauled it (back in the base game).. where if you followed general hygiene dupes would not get sick.. and if they do, it was a way more serious issue...  

PS: about the printing pod stuff. I consider it a good idea you have to "unlock" things first.. otherwise it would become too stale..

[Magheat2009]

2 hours ago, Lbphero said:

Is there a specific case ingame that you are referring to when you say this? 

While I am not refering to any one perticular case, beside germs, the destructible rocket interiors windows tiles is another example where 'dont like it dont use it' imo starts to get into problematic territory.

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Magheat2009 said:

While I am not refering to any one perticular case, beside germs, the destructible rocket interiors windows tiles is another example where 'dont like it dont use it' imo starts to get into problematic territory.

why...? thats like...one of the easiest ones to ignore and just not use if you don't like to, which I dont and have thus far never done in a survival game..

[spkthed]

32 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I think it all becomes an issue if we get easy ways to circumvent an entire tech tree with little work. A good example would be the times when we could build stuff out of abyssalite. A regular abyssalite pipe was better for insulation than insulated ceramic pipes. There was no reason to build insulated stuff ever. This is why it had to go.

Now some things kinda do the same but not quite. Free glass makes building a glass kiln early not worthwhile. A teleporter on the vanilla start makes early rockets useless. But those are both different since both rockets and more glass get more useful eventually so it`s more a matter of balance. Both can be balanced better so ye won`t feel like crippling ourselves by not using that, unlike abyssalite that needs to be super insulative or it would break the game.

This is an interesting point but we're really getting into min max territory. Like does it matter which kind of pipe you use? At the end of the day we are really talking about more or less power being used to heat or cool things which in turn breaks down into cycles and optimizations. Did it have to go? No. Did a rebalance improve the game? Sure thing!

I think this is what is causing the  'do not like it do use it' discussions and at some level, why one side here is talking past the other.

This said there is definitely joy in building the perfect system, I get it

[babba]

3 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

I think it all becomes an issue if we get easy ways to circumvent an entire tech tree with little work. A good example would be the times when we could build stuff out of abyssalite. A regular abyssalite pipe was better for insulation than insulated ceramic pipes. There was no reason to build insulated stuff ever. This is why it had to go.

Now some things kinda do the same but not quite. Free glass makes building a glass kiln early not worthwhile. A teleporter on the vanilla start makes early rockets useless. But those are both different since both rockets and more glass get more useful eventually so it`s more a matter of balance. Both can be balanced better so ye won`t feel like crippling ourselves by not using that, unlike abyssalite that needs to be super insulative or it would break the game.

You had a really good point with the fun of finding exciting map seeds. I`m glad Klei reads the forums and picked up on that, as it was a strong point of the base game They also added sufficient renewable water spawns,with a mix of temperatures, to dlc classic terra big mac map BTW and re-implemented rockets flying their entire path through maps, so I see no longer a need to have a negative review rating on the dlc, as base game content is practically and in reality coming to the dlc - I still miss ( radioactive?) Regolith and it would be nice to be able to switch off the teleporter spawns in the options. Also I agree fully on your mentioned insulation topic, the changes Klei made with that issue.

With the "free glass"...I see these points:

> The map quantity of possible and map spawned buildings/items to destruct is limited and relative small. As I play 1000 cycles I tend to use 40-200 tons of glass by playing the game and I`m not even doing fancy decoration things.

> I find destructing items and cashing in resources, like jumping in to Mario coins. Finding stuff can be fun , without the bonus cash it would be just a tedious non-fun destruction task for me. I would actually enjoy having 2x more glass items to destruct, as taking the long glass stabs apart can be fun. If there would be gravitas gold tables to take apart, I would love that . Destructing lots of spawned furniture apart and not receiving any resources for doing that, is no fun for me.

[evilcat19xx]

On 4/17/2021 at 2:36 PM, Magheat2009 said:

So lets take this argument to its extreme to realise the problems in it. By the reasoning of 'don't like it don't use it', Printing Pod should offer you Niobium

I 69% agree with your points. 

No solution in the game should be dominant. In the classic game, I always used to optimize my gameplay. For example, why bother producing other foods when you have mushrooms! Most of the recreation stuff were unnecessary. The whole medicine research branch and rooms were useless and so , many other examples.

On 4/18/2021 at 11:05 AM, spkthed said:

ONI is legos for adults

I think this is the difference between two groups of Oni players^^^^

First group: most of the people you see on this forum are looking at the game as Legos (sandbox mode/ creative mode). 

Personally, I always looking for a set of objectives. That is where Oni lacking. 

[babba]

15 minutes ago, evilcat19xx said:

...

Personally, I always looking for a set of objectives. That is where Oni lacking. 

@pether suggested events on the star map in this thread...Maybe there could be "Dangerous" zones on the star map, which would offer objectives to complete and/or master.

"The Dorken" flying in/on Dork Cube`s - Art from @minespatch

[Gurgel]

1 hour ago, evilcat19xx said:

I think this is the difference between two groups of Oni players^^^^

First group: most of the people you see on this forum are looking at the game as Legos (sandbox mode/ creative mode). 

Personally, I always looking for a set of objectives. That is where Oni lacking. 

I think I am in the 3rd group: "other".

I almost never use sandbox, I like build things for real (i.e. with dupes and under constraints) and I do like some level of challenge. (For variable values of "challenge". I got a colony on Oasisse to permanent sustainability with just a salt-water geyser and found it not very hard...)

I do agree that more story and real "strategic" objectives for ONI would be nice, but I am not sure we will get that. At least not with this DLC. Maybe a future one?

[Sasza22]

On 4/18/2021 at 8:56 PM, spkthed said:

This is an interesting point but we're really getting into min max territory.

Yeah i feel it comes down to this eventually. Like the glass window scenario reminds me of DST where veteran players just start the game with hammering pig houses for early planks and cut stone. They are losing a source of pigmen but it doesn`t really matter. It`s mostly a way to skip the early game they don`t find that interesting.

Similar in ONI some of the things we argue about just let advanced players skip the early game or skip some wait time. On the other hand some of those things affect balance in a way it makes certain tech useless.