Rad ping pong

[sakura_sk]

A "how to make the most particles without frying dupes" -probably...

I was messing around with radiation and HEP (HEP as a critter "evolution", nuclear waste shooting HEP and more..) and realized that radiation germs and radiation are connected.

And then, I started experimenting looping HEPs...

@Pulstar gave me an idea with this post

What if looping around HEPs could produce so much germs that radiation could reach that of a nuclear waste.. but in my control (no meltdown included sorry @babba)

I found that what produces germs is the HEP itself , so I thought I would loop the HEP around minimum distance possible in order to have the max of contamination. (After the 3rd "testing" meltdown, little blobs of nuclear waste had more radiation than the reactor itself)

Spoiler

I also managed to make a puddle that instant kills dupes that touch it... 

So I made a simple loop around a wheezewort and two blobs of ethanol. I expected to see the particle generator to hit 50 HEP in the direction of the left redirector and the two particle redirectors would ping pong the HEP until it degrades (I noticed that HEP degrade by 1 each travel tile)

But I was wrong... 

As soon as the particle hit the left redirector it started looping in there and never hit the second redirector. So that got me thinking... What if I submerged the "in" of the redirector in the liquid?

Magic happened....

 First particle going from 40 rads to 42 (that is only from the right blob where the particle generator sits
 

 Third particle ping pong

 After the 5th ping pong I let a dupe deconstruct and reverse the generator - redirector builds in order to produce more HEP per cycle

5 cycles later I deconstructed the redirector again and rebuild the particle generator to where it was before, although now it produces even more HEP

I obviously need to have several buddy buds to suppress radiation germs and ...probably ethanol wasn't the best liquid to use... If that blob evaporates.. bye-bye colony..

But... infinite HEPS in a blob is possible 

[babba]

Keep the dupe frying up

The game has so many crashes and freezes, I stopped playing. I know I need to start fresh anyway again for more future content and world generation coming - Still haven`t been in a rocket yet. Touch wood for the future.

Crash fixes, Regolith, World Generation, Rocket Automation/Interior Improvements, Big Maps...Keep it coming Klei

[Hokaeru]

@sakura_sk great ! Can you please explain what is the difference between radiation and radioactive germs is ? Are germs a way of "stocking" radioactivity into matter ? Also when HEP goes through liquid it loses energy right ?
Your build relies on the fact that radioactive germs do not spread outside the liquid but can be harnessed by the HEP emittor if I understand correctly ? And the nuclear science station does not get radioactive germs at all when hit with HEP ?  
I am trying to think of a way that would work without having to deconstruct the emitters

[sakura_sk]

@Hokaeru I take advantage of the fact that radioactive germs don't spread from liquid to gas (at least not in ethanol, I haven't checked if polluted water would spread germs while off-gassing) and particle generator uses its green hexes part to produce HEPs.

HEP loses energy (I described it as degrade) each tile they travel (liquid, gas, pneumatic doors) until they reach atomic collider which stores them until they consumed for research. Even in the last build I expect 47-48 HEP out of the 50 default the generator produces. HEP also produces radioactive germs to everything it touches. ~500* germs (*more testing needed) to liquid or gas that it passes through, or in the tile it hits (probably manual/mechanized airlocks too but I haven't tested that yet). What I noticed in my testing is that germs are produced while HEP travels, not when it hits receivers of redirector and atomic collider. 

Radioactive contaminant germs that produced by HEP (or a nuclear meltdown), seem to produce radiation in a ratio 1-1000, every 1000 germs=1 rad (don't know if it is intended but yes, you can stock radioactivity with germs)

Radioactive germs also degrade in gases while in liquid they don't (maybe not intended...?) so if you continuously pass HEP through a liquid, germs are added every time (or maybe the small mass of liquid I put is also a factor..?).

Here though is where "magic" happens. If you direct a redirector to itself, HEP loops in two tiles until it disappears. Having liquid in one of these liquid tiles produces non degradable germs. 

You can deconstruct the particle generator and put it in the spot of the redirector only once (when you are satisfied with how many rads are produced in the redirectors corner) but reversing their positions multiple times increases the production of rads/germs in the liquid blob tiles.

Radiation will spread when you start putting HEP in the atomic collider (germs in the air) that's why a use of buddy buds is recommended. In this compact build there wasn't much radiation spread through the air while deconstructing-changing position of generator and redirector (I don't know what I'll do with the second liquid blob that's left yet...). Maybe at some some point they will make that blob radiate like shine bugs, but until then it will be my 30gram high radiation source 

[cpy]

There is radiation in game? Is it in like test version or something?

[pether]

1 minute ago, cpy said:

There is radiation in game? Is it in like test version or something?

yes, it is currently on public_testing beta branch, should go live in 10 days

[cpy]

1 minute ago, pether said:

yes, it is currently on public_testing beta branch, should go live in 10 days

Looks like I have to backup current version to roll back after update.

[Hokaeru]

Okay thanks for the explanation !
Instead of deconstructing, can you just change the direction maybe ? 
And instead of buddy buds, perhaps can you just have your station in vacuum ?

[sakura_sk]

2 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

Instead of deconstructing, can you just change the direction maybe ? 
And instead of buddy buds, perhaps can you just have your station in vacuum ?

I deconstruct it because the redirector is the one that multiplies germs, meaning radiation increases more in the other liquid tile and you need to put generator there to have more rad/cycle

I only fear vacuum because of temperature increasing (particle generator makes a lot of heat...) otherwise you could also put it in vacuum.

[Hokaeru]

Okay, I have tried to reproduce your experiment, with a slightly different design (and the research station in a vacuum), and the problem I encountered was that radioactive germs die at a 50% per cycle rate, did they just add this or do your production overcome the loss ?

[sakura_sk]

11 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

the problem I encountered was that radioactive germs die at a 50% per cycle rate

In liquid..? Gas and solid it says "half life 1 cycles, 50% dead/cycle " but in liquid it doesn't (not in my save at least..). Did I break the game somehow and I didn't notice..? 

Spoiler

 

 

[Hokaeru]

Here is my setup (less efficient in travel distance, but you can just build it and then shift from pingpong to research mode). The viscogel germs have half-life of 1 cycle. Either you broke the game, either visco-gel behaves differently than other liquids. 

You can still have an atmosphere and cool the upper part, and have a layer of petroleum or something to cool the science machine in case you need it. So you could just have to bring oxygen masks to research in theory.

[JRup]

18 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

In liquid..? Gas and solid it says "half life 1 cycles, 50% dead/cycle " but in liquid it doesn't (not in my save at least..). Did I break the game somehow and I didn't notice..? 

One thing to note and I hope this is to everyone's benefit is that "germ population control" is borked at the moment - at least for radioactive contaminants. With this we get that once the liquid you choose to "seed" with radioactive contaminants reaches the overpopulated state then half life becomes infinity cycles. I tested this several times with 300g of petroleum - crude and even nuclear waste.
Do enjoy your permanent contaminant cultures.

[sakura_sk]

I just discovered it's the quantity of liquid. For water it needs to be less than 500-480 grams in order to have infinity germs

2 minutes ago, JRup said:

Do enjoy your permanent contaminant cultures.

I knew it shouldn't be possible! 

[Hokaeru]

This is the unfortunate end of a short journey 

[sakura_sk]

Oh! Before I forget... @Hokaeru be careful with your build. HEP is a hazard if the point it enters the collider doesn't change... I found that out by accident... (Stinky's accident... ) Fortunately while testing 

If the design of the station doesn't change (point of entry 3 tiles high), dupe sensor when HEP is fired is necessary otherwise there is always a chance a dupe will be struck down by HEP ...

[pether]

2 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

If the design of the station doesn't change (point of entry 3 tiles high), dupe sensor when HEP is fired is necessary otherwise there is always a chance a dupe will be struck down by HEP ...

I love it, I hope it stays like this

Do I understand correctly that duplicants conducting research will always stay at the HEP port?

[sakura_sk]

Just now, pether said:

Do I understand correctly that duplicants conducting research will always stay at the HEP port?

Duplicants always find a way to hurt themselves... I should know better by now... 

[RageLeague]

I don't know. My setup has dupes approaching the atomic research station from the right, and they seem fine. No one has died from HYEP! yet.

Then again, I am playing on builder mode, which drastically reduces research time, I think. My HYEP! generator doesn't fire very often, so it is possible they are done with the research before they get killed.

[The Plum Gate]

Klei and their nefarious port placement tendencies. 

This one takes the cake.

Anyone found some automation around this?

[JRup]

4 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said:

Anyone found some automation around this?

Does the particle generator's port count? (Toggles shoot/no shoot)

[ghkbrew]

2 minutes ago, JRup said:

7 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said:

Anyone found some automation around this?

Does the particle generator's port count? (Toggles shoot/no shoot)

Yup, it'll even continue to collect particles when disabled by automation.

Motion sensor -> Not gate -> particle generators

[sakura_sk]

1 minute ago, ghkbrew said:

Motion sensor -> Not gate -> particle generators

My actual base. But I don't think it is completely "dupe-proof"

[ghkbrew]

2 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

My actual base. But I don't think it is completely "dupe-proof"

I don't know how much lag time the motion sensor has, we might need to cover a larger area with the sensors or add some doors to slow the dupes down, or they might be able to run into the death-ray before the automation triggers.

[The Plum Gate]

I was thinking of a weight plate system.

Also, some vacuum system corridors with a glass sight eye, since it seems like most radiation passes through glass quite well, so should HEPs.

I played with debug a bit with the collectors and directors, and just bounced my HEPs around in a loop, they eventually run out of energy and dissipate.

I may be over thinking this. I think a locked entrance door, and one way exit door type setup - when its firing - might do the trick. Clear room and fire.

"Well, that's going on the ceiling." Is the first thought that came to mind with the directors.