[Experimental] - 441504

[Kevin]

Hey Grifters,

Work is progressing on this update's features - you can gain and buy mettle upgrades, and you can use flourishes (although you can't yet buy new ones). The Achievements are being tested (they're meant to be weird things, not stuff you'd do by normally playing - we have other systems for that). Smith day 3 stuff is getting done behind the scenes - you'll be able to play it in experimental as soon as a critical path of content is in for it, but we won't be officially releasing it until our January update.

Anywhoo, here are today's changes:

UI

• Reduce bloom on defend_icon, it drowns out the number.
• Show playtime on GameOverScreen.
• Add play time to Run history details.
• fix backwards check to save when exiting during convo
• Preliminary version of the Flourishes screen. Doesn't allow unlocking flourishes yet. No gamepad support
• Adding Mettle count to the Compendium screen

GAMEPLAY

• Permit statically tagged plot_armour to show up as a patron.
• Remove plot_armour from sparky, jeol, arint, flekfis.  For the latter two at least, the tag is redundant since they are cast plot armoured by ROOK_STORY.
• Added 4 new mettle upgrades to increase flourish gains in both combat and negotiation
• Fixed bug where mettle upgrades weren't being applied properly at the start of a new game
• added a hat shop to the pearl
• early work on side_smith_eden_deep_undercover
• Clear 'talk_to_investigator' quest mark once you show the poison incriminating the assassin.

CARDS

• Perseverence, Partners in Crime, and Premium Quality have a 'consumed' state when they are no longer available.
• Fix potential crash with min damage exceeding max_damage.
• 'Delegator' should apply to bounties as well.
• Buffed all_rounder slightly
• cha_ching now only lasts one turn
• added the auto_deal flag to Smith's chain cards
• Added manual_desc flag to simmer_plus
• Fixed specialty
• Fix crash with batter up

View full update

[RageLeague]

29 minutes ago, Kevin said:

 

• added a hat shop to the pearl

 

That's the only thing I care about in this update.

Also, I don't remember Jeol or Sparky ever having plot armor.

Edited November 21, 2020 by RageLeague

[minespatch]

So.... Smith can wear hats?

[ZeppMan217]

Hope the run timer could be seen somewhere during the run, too, and not just at the end.

[bryank724]

3 hours ago, Kevin said:

• Fixed bug where mettle upgrades weren't being applied properly at the start of a new game

 

Hallelujah!

[Scrumch]

I looked it up and apparently the hat store's a Day 3 thing?

Content.AddLocationContent{
        id = "PEARL_HAT_SHOP",
        name = "Pearl Exquisite Millinery",
        plax = "INT_SMITH_MERCHANTSHOP1",
        show_agents = true,
        indoors = true,
        work = 
        {
            proprietor = CreateMerchantJob( PHASE_MASK_ALL, "Proprietor", CHARACTER_ROLES.PROPRIETOR, "WEALTHY_MERCHANT"),    
        },

        patron_data = {
            patron_generator = generate_patrons,
            num_patrons = 
            {
                [DAY_PHASE.DAY] = 3,
            },
        },
    }

 

[RageLeague]

3 hours ago, Scrumch said:

I looked it up and apparently the hat store's a Day 3 thing?

Content.AddLocationContent{
        id = "PEARL_HAT_SHOP",
        name = "Pearl Exquisite Millinery",
        plax = "INT_SMITH_MERCHANTSHOP1",
        show_agents = true,
        indoors = true,
        work = 
        {
            proprietor = CreateMerchantJob( PHASE_MASK_ALL, "Proprietor", CHARACTER_ROLES.PROPRIETOR, "WEALTHY_MERCHANT"),    
        },

        patron_data = {
            patron_generator = generate_patrons,
            num_patrons = 
            {
                [DAY_PHASE.DAY] = 3,
            },
        },
    }

 

The day=3 is part of the patron data. It means that it accepts 3 patrons during the day(and 0 during the night)

[pacovf]

Ok so I enjoy flourish cards because they’re one more way to deckbuild, and they’re fun as your characters “ultimate”. They do make most consumable items feel worse, since they occupy a similar position in terms of game balance (help you push through a difficulty spike), but flourish is free while consumable items are really expensive. Consumables not being worth-it (with rare exceptions) is an old problem, but this is making it even more obvious 

I’m completely confused however by mettle. It serves a very similar purpose to grifts, in that it’s a meta-currency that makes your character stronger. The difference is that it’s per-character instead of global, and usually requires you go out of your way to acquire it (while grifts tend to happen with normal play). This is not a very strong distinction, which is compounded by the fact that, outside flourish cards, many of the benefits from Mettle are the same as those from Grifts, with just some numbers tweaked.

So what’s the goal of this new currency? How does it enhance gameplay in a way that other existing mechanics don’t? 

[Scrumch]

I see mettle grafts as weaker perks that are a permanent gain. Something like Good Health III I feel is mandatory for P6 Rook and especially Sal because of their lower health totals (even if I get lucky and roll Compression Gear). In terms of availability, you complete grifts a lot faster initially than you gain mettle - the last few grifts take ages to do so those super powerful final tier perks like persevere and partner in crime feel very rewarding to get. Mettle on the other hand is dolled out at random, you can't really control how much you'll get per run aside from the small amounts bosses yield, I feel it's meant to be a more gradual change that will slowly improve your runs. That way I can actually try some of the none-mandatory (imo) perks, as my base stats have been increased by mettle. Maybe mettlesome got added to give more of a reason to murder people lol

Though I do feel the mettle gain is way to slow. Some of these cost 100 mettle, in runs where I can barely earn 20. 

Also flourishes, are very handy but I don't use them like how I use consumables. You can only have one flourish per battle (maybe another 1 if you start with max metre) but you can choose when to use it. Item cards are subject to the whim of the card dealer but they're multi use (even more so with the specific Perk) and offer a wider range of abilities than the flourishes seem to. I've only seen Smith's full set of flourishes but it's definitely missing late-game important stuff like a cheap stun, a heal for allies, piercing damage, etc.  Tripwire, healing vapours, slurry, krill ichor and a ton of others can be bought in advanced for a tough fight - or just gotten from killing people (Spark canon is really good imo). Most stuff being expensive is to be expected in P5+ but considering Bargaining, Haggle Badge and a few other things - it's more than doable to get a few strong item cards while having enough money for grafts. Currently I kind of just sit on my flourishes until I really need them, but with most item cards I'm a lot more lax in my usage.

 

[RageLeague]

I feel like I've already posted this once before. Now that there's a new thing. I feel like this is more relevant.

Also, the way mettle is set up make it seems like some sort of drug. You are greeted by this dodgy character, who offers this substance of unknown nature to get you hooked up. Then she introduces you to her shop, where she sells this substance to you at a ridiculous price. You then becomes addicted to it, and constantly wants more of it, spending all of your hard-earned shills on mettle instead of important stuff like friendship and weapons. While this substances indeed make you stronger, it does have a psychological side effect apart from the addiction: you become more aggressive, and starts to kill more and more people for it. As the time goes on, it becomes part of your mind, and you want to talk about it every time you have a chance. Thus, it begins a never ending cycle of addiction(until you unlocked everything that is. Still, have you seen how much mettle you need to fully unlock everything?)

butheythatsjustatheoryagametheorythanksforwatching

Edited November 22, 2020 by RageLeague

[pacovf]

11 hours ago, Scrumch said:

I see mettle grafts as weaker perks that are a permanent gain. Something like Good Health III I feel is mandatory for P6 Rook and especially Sal because of their lower health totals (even if I get lucky and roll Compression Gear). In terms of availability, you complete grifts a lot faster initially than you gain mettle - the last few grifts take ages to do so those super powerful final tier perks like persevere and partner in crime feel very rewarding to get. Mettle on the other hand is dolled out at random, you can't really control how much you'll get per run aside from the small amounts bosses yield, I feel it's meant to be a more gradual change that will slowly improve your runs. That way I can actually try some of the none-mandatory (imo) perks, as my base stats have been increased by mettle. Maybe mettlesome got added to give more of a reason to murder people lol

I can't say I've found Rook's P6 to be so hard as to *require* extra health. It's nice to have, but that's it. Other perks will increase your odds of completion more than that. I also don't find this to be a good reason why both Mettle and Perks should grant extra health or resolve. It's muddled game design. 

11 hours ago, Scrumch said:

Also flourishes, are very handy but I don't use them like how I use consumables. You can only have one flourish per battle (maybe another 1 if you start with max metre) but you can choose when to use it. Item cards are subject to the whim of the card dealer but they're multi use (even more so with the specific Perk) and offer a wider range of abilities than the flourishes seem to. I've only seen Smith's full set of flourishes but it's definitely missing late-game important stuff like a cheap stun, a heal for allies, piercing damage, etc.  Tripwire, healing vapours, slurry, krill ichor and a ton of others can be bought in advanced for a tough fight - or just gotten from killing people (Spark canon is really good imo). Most stuff being expensive is to be expected in P5+ but considering Bargaining, Haggle Badge and a few other things - it's more than doable to get a few strong item cards while having enough money for grafts. Currently I kind of just sit on my flourishes until I really need them, but with most item cards I'm a lot more lax in my usage.

 A few items are correctly priced, like Brain gills, noodles, the stun cards, etc. You don't have to buy them, but you don't feel like you're throwing away your money if you do. But most, like Lumin grenade, might as well be called "handicap your run by buying this" (grafts and social boons are always a *much* better return on your investment). They're in an odd place in which the devs don't know if they want to balance them around the possibility of getting them "for free" by murdering someone (that's roughly where I feel they are), or spending a small fortune to buy them (never worth it).

One reason why you might be using items more than Flourish is because many item cards take a card away, so inherently reduce your options and so you're more drawn to playing them. Flourish cards don't, so when you use it is because you actually want to use them then. This is a strike against item cards though, it shouldn't be interpreted as items somehow filling a different niche.

10 hours ago, RageLeague said:

I feel like I've already posted this once before. Now that there's a new thing. I feel like this is more relevant.

You did show this before, and I watched it then. The thing is, progress in a roguelike through accumulation of a meta-currency that improves your stats is just a hollow provider of satisfaction. It's a skinner box, no different from what most MMO do. Roguelikes don't need this, because the ultimate fun in this genre is not winning, it's trying different approaches towards winning (whether they succeed or not being less important than the variability).

Gating variety/complexity behind progression like, say, Binding of Isaac does, is perfectly reasonable. You don't want new players to be confused by some of the wackier items, or overwhelmed by too many mechanics at once. But once the player has enough runs behind them and they start seeing the "starting" items too often, unlocking them breathes new life into the game. This is good, and this is what Griftlands does with card packs and to some extent perks.

Gaiting powerlevel of your character behind progression is harder to justify. You can really only do that when it is thematically important that the player fail repeatedly, like in Hades (where meta-progression is a proper game in itself, and affects your decision-making during your runs!) or, to some extent, Rogue Legacy (they don't do much with the idea, but it's there). Otherwise it will just feel like the devs trying to stretch game time for longer than the gameloop would naturallly allow. Griftlands certainly doesn't need this, it's already flush with content: lore/worldbuilding, card variety, difficulty levels, mutators/daily runs...

While grifts/perks do make your character stronger in Griftlands, I can understand why you would gate them: they're extra complexity that a new player might not be ready for. They also introduce more variety in runs, with some of them affecting the way you want to play the game (more pets, more items, more grafts, etc); there are also stat gains in there, but at least if you pick them you have to give up a "real" perk, so there is some decision-making. Then Mettle gives permanent stat boosts (second, boring kind of meta-progression), but also unlocks Flourish cards (first, fun kind of meta-progression), and also upgrades those Flourish cards (once again, the boring meta-progression).

 

Anyway, my overall point is, why do we have 2 different meta-progression currencies, when you unlock them in similar ways, and they unlock similar things? Either merge them into one, or have a better distinction into how you get them and what you unlock with them. Maybe grifts / perk points would be limited and exclusively be obtained by doing achievement-worthy tasks, and would be used to unlock run-defining perks and  new flourish cards (remove pure stat-increase perks), while Mettle would be unlocked mostly just by playing and would only be used for stat gains and to upgrade the unlocked flourish cards.

My X cents here.

[ZeppMan217]

51 minutes ago, pacovf said:

it's trying different approaches towards winning (whether they succeed or not being less important than the variability).

I've not used anything other than Diplomacy Sal with Influence finger guns, Prepare Rook with Turtle coin and Matter of Fact, and Smith with Renown and Rescind in months. Those approaches work, reliably, in both the Campaign and Brawl. The perks don't matter because 2 slots are always occupied by -XP for starter and non-starter cards. I don't hate variety but these things work, they win.

Granted, combat's better in that regard, at least for Sal and Smith. I can't justify playing non-Burn Rook, it's just all around good.

What I'm trying to say is, meta stuff does not affect variety, the card balance (or the lack of) does. This is also true for Hades, which has talents (perks) that are just better than the alternative.

Edited November 22, 2020 by ZeppMan217

[pacovf]

Right, but do you have fun trying the same builds time and time again? Do you think adding Mettle will contribute to your fun playing those same decks once more?

I agree that balance is very important to reward trying new things, not arguing that point. It’s funny because I wouldn’t consider almost any of the decks you’ve mentioned as top-tier. I don’t think Griftlands balance is very far off, putting aside some cards that are undraftable.

[Scrumch]

I feel all of the current deck builds for the characters work (I already mentioned Sal's first two decks needing some tweaking). I'm surprised there even is a tier list considering most of my loses were from my own poor planning (I am SO glad crits are not a thing in this game).

If we're going to bring up Hades I may as well make the comparison that Social Boons = God Boons (Very strong potential but highly build reliant and up to chance), Perks(Grifts) = Keepsakes(Nectar) (A permanent upgrade you choose before the run and can only be strengthened through time, Hades allows you to switch it each floor - Griftlands lets you keep 3 at the same time), and finally Mettle = Darkness (A currency you accrue at random intervals that you can use to slowly strengthen your character). Both these games have overlap in the powerful perk/keepsakes and weaker but more permanent mettle/darkness upgrades (e.g. Good Health and the Cerberus collar both give large health bonuses when you have that slot filled while the Mettle Health Upgrades and Thick Skin give you a permanent bonus).

Granted, the Hades Mirror upgrades each have an alternate version (some of which I find kind of pointless imo) so there is that added level of strategy - but that is to be expected from a full game v.s. something still in active development. And I'm basically comparing apples to oranges here at this point, the two games are VERY different.

Nearly all of Griftlands' marketing is based on that 'thematically important that the player fail repeatedly' thing - most of the shorts clearly take place in alternate timelines where one of the Grifters has done something different, heck the first thing you see when you boot up the game is a message telling you that you will die a lot! There's a few interactions that even mention the deathloop. Don't Starve has this same Deathloop be a core part of it's world, so it's not out of the question that it's being done here too. I personally think the slow-burn progression is a good addition to a game you're going to be dying a lot in - Klei masters Rougelikes but this is the first of their games with such a system in it so I really want to see how it turns out.

I do agree that both Perks and Mettle Grafts could be tided up some, though.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Scrumch

[pacovf]

I disagree with a lot of what you say (I think Hades is the exception rather than the rule in which meta-progression works), but I appreciate the time you’ve put into explaining your position. I think I’ve done a reasonable job at explaining mine too. As far as I’m concerned, it’s up to the devs to figure out what they want out of this new mechanic, I just wanted to put my opinion out there.

[ZeppMan217]

13 hours ago, pacovf said:

Right, but do you have fun trying the same builds time and time again? Do you think adding Mettle will contribute to your fun playing those same decks once more?

I agree that balance is very important to reward trying new things, not arguing that point. It’s funny because I wouldn’t consider almost any of the decks you’ve mentioned as top-tier. I don’t think Griftlands balance is very far off, putting aside some cards that are undraftable.

No, I'm not having fun doing the same builds, but they work, and the Brawl grafts do add some variety.

As for Mettle, it all looks like perks to me, cept they're upgradable instead of having redundant (yet stackable) versions of themselves.

I like the idea of signature cards, provided they're well balanced to support the various playstyles and there's enough variety between em. The meta stuff though, I really don't care for it.