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ONI and Apple Silicon (M1) ?


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3 hours ago, Rainbowdesign said:

Hey @babba i got 2255 with the passmark measure util.for my mobile CPU

I just wanted to know it means my CPU is as good as a desktop CPU with the same score or if Mobile CPUs are weaker anyways for the reasons you mentioned.

And also if the frames hover like 20 mid game is normal experiences for that or if there might be more problems.

I am Wishing you a nice time in the game too dear babba.

Hey :p

2255 is ok and well. You only need to look at the single threading number passmark value of your test ( which you did ), it will determine your ONi performance in comparison.

If you have spare money for a nice Xmas pressi and have time, location and fun to setup a new desktop...

AMD Ryzen 5 5600X averages at passmark cpu 3372 score for great launch price of ~usd 300

3372/2255(your cpu) = 1.49 = 49% percent ONi framerate speed increase

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

If we are lucky we will get a new cpu with score of 4400 at the end of 2021 at a decent cpu price,

which would be 4400/2255(your cpu) = 1.95 = 95% percent ONi framerate speed increase.

So if you want to wait for one year and have fun and monies to setup a new ONi desktop computer then,

its an estimated doubling of ONi framerate at end of 2021 ( if cpu on market with passmark 4400 at decent launch price )

----------------------

Your mentioned Intel Core i5-8259U @ 2.30GHz # Passmark user average is 2247 ( you reported 2255, perfect match )

As its in a notebook other components and/or heat will typically more or less bring your ONi FPS down ( lets guestimate 20-40% really depends on your system ), in comparison to a typical desktop system. However, the CPU itself is decent for ONi. A grid desktop mainboard and grid desktop cpu can take on massive amounts of wattage more with good cooling. The "TDP" ( a flimsy industry value ) of my modified i7 7700k system would be practically be something like TDP 200, which can be up to 10 fold compared to notebooks. My aircooler already weights 2 kilos and is half the size of a desktop mainboard - 2kg cooler, that the weight of a typical standard notebook. Thats 2 kilos metal just to get rid of cpu heat :biggrin-new:

So if one wanted to build a really good gaming notebook it would have to be 1 cubicmeter big because of thermals or lets say 0.25 cubicmeter with monster turbofans and/or or watercooling pipes going through. Also the notebook board cant draw decent grid connected power, so it would have to be a desktop board built in to a notebook. At the end you come out with a desktop haha. Power drain and heat are 2 big topics for great gaming performance.

Your notebook cpu:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i5-8259U+%40+2.30GHz&id=3299

Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-8259U CPU @ 2.30GHz
CPU First Seen on Charts:  Q2 2018
Description: Intel Iris Plus Graphics 655 Class: Laptop Socket: FCBGA1528 Clockspeed: 2.3 GHz Turbo Speed: 3.8 GHz Cores: 4 Threads: 8 TDP Down: 20 W Typical TDP: 28 W3

I hope my detail feedback made you happy my friend :afro:

BTW everybody who has a desktop mainboard in a pc case is a thermal criminal in my eyes :lol:

@Gurgel@mathmanican @Rainbowdesign >>> I want to send you cpu`s and radioactive pizza in shared ONi gameplay, we should do a colony party playing all together ! :bee::bee::bee:

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I don't think Desktop vs Laptop PassMark score scales at all with real life ONI performance.

Desktop i use an 7700k, listed score is 2768

Notebook i use an 10750H, listed score is 2745

Should be about equal eh ?

 

In reality i get 2-3 times the framerate on desktop, on 3440*1440.

While on the Notebook i have to run at 1080p, because native 4k only gets me <20fps

 

One reason might be, that while the 7700k runs at 4,8GHz all day long, the 10750H drops to 2.6? base clock after a short time, even with fans at 100%

 

That 5900X looks tempting tough.

Courious to hear if it really is the fastest thing for ONI for the foreseeable future.

 

 

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Should be about equal eh ? > No, as mentioned in my post. Notebooks suffer too many systematic component and technical problems. I would always play with a $1000 well setup desktop than with a $4000usd gaming notebook. On an airplane I once got a comment to switch my hairdryer off "Its too hot man, stop pumping out all that heat". Also wearing special trousers on planes to avoid leg burns is a hassle.

Wishing you a nice time in ONi, dear @StB155 :p

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"Apple’s new M1 processor beats Ryzen 9 5950X and Core i9-10900K in Geekbench 5 single-core performance"

Sounds worth investigating to me.

While less relevant to ONI as I was told but still interesting note :

"Apple M1 chip outperforms Nvidia 1050 Ti and AMD RX 560 cards in benchmarks"

These are titles from articles reviewing the said chip.

We can expect greater performance with desktop and higher end systems as Apple will transition all their Macs within 2 years.

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Its a nice notebook low power chip :p

Keep in mind that notebook chips with 20-30 watts rated TDP are different to desktop cpus practically draining 150-300 watts from the grid.

I do stand your enthusiasm :afro:

Much was written on other cpu performance details already...Talking about the caches: Desktop Ryzen5 5600x has 35mb well designed cache ( l2+l3), whereas the Apple arm m1 has 12mb l2 cache optimized for low energy consumption multi core cache sharing. Games and other stuff depend strongly on fast and large caches, if they are designed well.

If Arm chips are someday sold competitive as hardcore gaming competition to Intel/Amd, then ONi may run with Apple Arm chips ok. 10 years ?

Low power chips have the advantage that less breaks if no cooling fans required - More $ margin for Apple and shareholders.

If one wants to run ONi or other games fast...Desktop board + top 10 passmark single thread cpus which practically suck 150-300 watts from the power grid. It is really like coming to an oil tanker offering to fuel it with a bucket and the crews eyes pop out. However, having better and better Arm chips on the market will kick the butt of other chip manufacturers, selling in the same class level.

Low power notebook chips are a contradicting philosophy vs high power consuming max speed gaming chips.

I do hope you can play ONi, its a great game :adoration: Let us know once you get ONi running on Arm Apple, it would help the Apple community.

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55 minutes ago, babba said:

If Arm chips are someday sold competitive as hardcore gaming competition to Intel/Amd, then ONi may run with Apple Arm chips ok. 10 years ?

i would estimate a more accelerated timeline than that. 3-5 years would be my guess?

57 minutes ago, babba said:

I do hope you can play ONi, its a great game :adoration: Let us know once you get ONi running on Arm Apple, it would help the Apple community.

I may be investing in the new M1 MBP. I hate being an early adopter and would rather wait until M2, but my current MBP's speakers are blown and it doesn't feel worth it for me to get it serviced or to try to service it myself since it's several years old at this point.

 a part of me also would love to get a new desktop (not that insane MacPro but the iMac pro) bc i much prefer desktops to laptops for high CPU things i do (video editing, realtime audio/video manipulation, and let's face it, ONI), but the practicality of having to take a bunch of that work on the road has made the sacrifice of laptop performance worth being as mobile as possible

If I do end up getting the M1 MBP, i'll def be playing ONI on it, and will likely post up comments/thoughts/comparisons about ONI performance on it vs what i use now.

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1 hour ago, darknotezero said:

If I do end up getting the M1 MBP, i'll def be playing ONI on it, and will likely post up comments/thoughts/comparisons about ONI performance on it vs what i use now.

YES please :-P The MB Pro should suffer less from thermal throttling under intense and extensive tasks (if at all) compared to the MB Air ;)

I'm thinking to get a Mac mini to replace my 10yo iMac.

Not a thorough benchmark but it seems to run fine - keeping in mind it's not optimized only translated by Rosetta2 :

(can skip t 1:38)

 

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1 hour ago, darknotezero said:

i would estimate a more accelerated timeline than that. 3-5 years would be my guess?

Hard to tell - Apple has a history to change to completely different chips. The future fate of the Arm company could be the fate of Apple changing to completely different chips again or not. We will know in 10 years what happened ;)

Cities Skylines: Its a beast, I used to play it on launch day on an MSI GT70 in a carribean hotel room. Great memories. Its another one of these games where I built a home pc for a game in the launch year, its extremely demanding.

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I think you're mostly right @babba, but I don't think that wattage is a good way to compare CPU cores across different architectures. There's just too many differences between ARM & X86 to draw any meaningful conclusions from power draw other than battery life. This is doubly true for comparing a CISC vs. RISC core, since RISC cores are supposed to provide better power per watt. Ditto with GHz; even within X86 flat line core speed doesn't tell us as much as it used to, given how much work CPUs do to optimize performance above and beyond what clock speed implies.

Your point about cache is well made though, and I think in general the M1 isn't going to outrun high end gaming chips on a per-core basis. But the M1 will beat out a pretty surprising chunk of the Intel market for natively compiled code based on what we've seen; and it'll outrun dang near everything Apple has ever made before.

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Thank you for your friendly written input. :p

One thing to consider is that a good pc power alone supply often more weights more than a notebook...and I was never a friend of glued up system notebooks which are basically designed to be thrown away, me being a friend of expandable and compatible architecture and components.

I`m also no friend of notebooks in general, no matter what OS or components inside - Its all too flimsy and built for the moment. :beaten:

However, a notebook being used as a mousepad is always welcome :biggrin-new:

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Things that kill peformance the most: single thread bottlenecks.

I've seen games that can use 8 threads no problem and I've seen games that WASTE 8 threads no problem.

Examples:

The good: Stationeers i've seen use up to 10 threads and increasing performance a lot compared to less threads.

The bad: ONI old alpha: main thread limits peformance of whole game and other threads are not lifting it enough. But now it's much better than early version of game, now oni uses about 3-4 threads.

The ugly: Need for speed heat: 2 cores: 30FPS threads loaded to 100%, 4 cores: 60FPS threads loaded 100%, 8 cores 60FPS thread loaded 100%.

I mean what the hell is NFS doing? Mining crypto with anything above 4 cores?

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On 11/24/2020 at 12:29 AM, babba said:

I was never a friend of glued up system notebooks which are basically designed to be thrown away, me being a friend of expandable and compatible architecture and components.

ME TOO. i'm still heavily invested in Apple and like what they do for my purposes (been using them for almost 30 years now) but when they started to steer all of their computers both laptop and desktop towards nonupgradable or replaceable, i was pretty unhappy.

I think they realized that with the Pro line when the trash can mac failed, but then they went all extreme with the new Pro. It'd be nice to have a more entry-level Mac that doesn't cost an annual salary that i can upgrade the internals myself.

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That is not coming back any time soon.

And to be fair, it is almost impossible with how small and tightly packed devices have become.

Thanks to Intel, just upgrading the CPU, is no longer a thing since years anyway.

New CPU needs new chipset/mainboard, for every generation.

And since Apple now puts everything inside one chip, you won’t be upgrading RAM either.

 

I would actually be fine with it, if their prices for buying a decent spec in the beginning would be remotely reasonable.

+230€ for 8GB Ram, and another +230€ for 512 instead 256GB SSD is just ridiculous.

I kind of get it with the MBair, because the base model has all you really need for an decent price.

And if you need more, you might as well go straight to the MBpro, which is basically the same thing, just with an fan and the touchbar added, for 400€(?) extra. Which would be OK, since it is the first device since ever that at last got appropriate cooling for „pro“ use.

The problem is that MBpro also only has 8/256 in base config, and with half decent 16/512, you are at 2000€ again.

For basically an MBair with an fan, which is now basically an ipad without touchscreen and one extra USB-C connector.


On the other side, if you think about what pile of garbage you got for about the same money until very recently (2020 i7 MBair), 

compared to that, any spec new M1 Macbook is great value.

 

What really sucks regarding upgradability, is that you can‘t put an additional M.2 SSD in the MACmini.

For the Macbooks you can argue with room, cooling or battery life. But on the mini, there is really no excuse.

 

 

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On 11/18/2020 at 12:42 AM, babba said:

My intention is not to upset you, but its always the same with Apple folks. M1 is a nice efficient, power saving, notebook cpu for Apple world. ONi requires a Ferrari Testerossa, brute force power on 1 core.

Handing you a nice donut and a free beer from me ;)

If it would be great, I would love to tell you. The idea for Klei could be to launch a version with 1/16 map size, if they want to support such specs, just considering cpu speed specs alone and nothing else. There is a reason why proper gaming notebooks are called "The heavy concrete bricks".

 

On 11/25/2020 at 1:20 AM, PickPay said:

So it has happened ! This info is collected on a spreadsheet with many other games, I don’t have any details but it’s at least running

1214914707_Capturedecran2020-11-25a01_27_09.thumb.png.e5245bd2b7d81122469779d9e7e7e5ee.png

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1er-NivvuIheDmIKBVRu3S_BzA_lZT5z3Z-CxQZ-uPVs/htmlview#gid=0

 

Hmm...

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Still unable to recover my saves. Anyone willing to share an advanced base for testing ?

Here are my results so far at 1920x1080 (small sized base, cycle 197 - 8 dupes) :

- Loading main menu is pretty fast as well as the save itself.

- Slight stutter when immediately resuming game after loading the world but that's normal.

- Steady 60 fps at the heart of the base

- Scrolling around the map is super smooth.

- Same performance at fast speed (x3)

- Slight freeze in the morning when the game performs an auto save, again normal.

- Accessing different overlays drops the framerate a bit for a moment, couldn't measure as they don't seem to work in windowed mode.

       The Farming Overlay is slightly slower and the Materials Overlay was clearly taxing compared to others (maybe drop to 40 fps)

- No crash or glitches so far.

I'm quite pleased with the performance at this point but will have to see with a heavily loaded world what the limit of this M1 is.

Mac mini M1.png

Capture d’écran 2020-12-05 à 11.10.38.png

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@babba thanks, likewise.

I’m still curious how it will perform with a big base (which is never my play style).

I was wondering if I should post a new topic with results so anyone interested would find it right away or maybe there aren’t any ONI players considering playing on a M1 :o

I thought at least the devs would care to know...

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I tried Quarantine Zone 888 and the Mac mini struggles !

It took a while to load the save :O

I can't trust the tool I was using to display framerate as the game feels much slower than what it says. (display 35-45 but is more like 15-25fps)

Scrolling stutters. Bottom left of the base made the computer freeze even, not sure why.

At 3x speed it's too much and does some "skipping"

That said overall it's still playable though. I've never played on such a base on my PC and don't have access to it but I believe any computer would suffer.

 

Then I tried Prison 2 cycle 3048 even though it's a tiny map it was a lot to handle for the Mac mini. Performs a lot better than the previous map but not quite 60 fps. 

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@PickPay

Would be cool if you could run Passmark and post your score result in "Single threading". Can you get Windows stuff running on your machine ?

https://www.passmark.com/products/performancetest/download.php

Then you can compare your result in Single Threading Score with the top 8 desktop cpu`s of the list,

namely No4 low budget cost, high performer amd ryzen 5 5600X for launch monies $299

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

image.thumb.png.6a87755bc86430b9150547b28eed2e19.png

 

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@babba

Bootcamp (Apple's feature to boot a Mac natively under Windows) is no longer supported.

Someone managed to run ARM version of Windows and Parallels (virtualization) should run but neither options are optimized.

There's also Crossover which doesn't require a Windows installation to run apps  but I haven't tried it.

I could run Geekbench or Cinebench but those tests have been done by everyone else.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu_benchmark-cinebench_r23_single_core-15

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