ONI and Apple Silicon (M1) ?

[babba]

If you could get Cinebench Single Threading CPU Render Test running on your machine and post result screenshots, that would be really cool But dont stress yourself out, perhaps just enjoy the game my friend You got it running and thats great.

7 minutes ago, PickPay said:

@babba

Bootcamp (Apple's feature to boot a Mac natively under Windows) is no longer supported.

Someone managed to run ARM version of Windows and Parallels (virtualization) should run but neither options are optimized.

There's also Crossover which doesn't require a Windows installation to run apps  but I haven't tried it.

I could run Geekbench or Cinebench but those tests have been done by everyone else.

It`s MS vs Apple...The old game.

Apple shuts down Bootcamp, MS doesn`t want to support Apple Arm.

Whatever, if you get Passmark running with the test - Your the king

[PickPay]

6 minutes ago, babba said:

If you could get Cinebench Single Threading CPU Render Test

I provided a link to a generic table in my previous post I edited

[babba]

1 hour ago, PickPay said:

I provided a link to a generic table in my previous post I edited

I verified your post with several internet sources, its correct.

Good CPU. Perhaps you can get another 10-30% out of your cpu if you remove the case and apply a custom cooling solution. However, I understand if you don`t want to trash your Apple warranty and have fuzz. I get goosebumps just thinking of not modifying a system, the Apple Glue-everything-up thing is so not my world. I bet throwing the case away, applying liquid metal with a great cooler on top could yield up to +30% speed out of the chip as you got ONi running with a hardcore built map.

Apple knows why the cpu has no turbo mode for a single core, its in a tiny usual Apple box and cant breath.

If you keep that thing I would throw the case away at the end of the warranty time and then apply a custom cooling solution. That`s the nice thing with AMD, very long mainboard cpu range compability support and one can just put a new chip in. No Apple nonsense component locks or warranty-ends-because-you touched-a-case-screw-excuses. I`m so glad the 2 decades of Intel domination are over, no more constant new board purchases because of new Intel chipset requirements, lets hope AMD does not follow Intel footsteps with mainboards.

But I do understand the Apple in a box fun, Xbox, Playstation and notebooks...On smartphones I use the jailed up Google Android and I don`t mess with the phones processor Peace of mind.

Also having the Apple M1 processor and future follow up cpu`s...kicks AMD and Intel in the butt - That`s good competition

Maybe ONi multicore support improves over the next few years, we will all benefit from some better multicore crash free coding - Touch wood

 

From a junk website full of ads...

https://www.pcgamer.com/cinebenchr23-adds-thermal-torture-test/

Cinebench R23 benchmark adds thermal torture test - "The longer runtime test modes are optional, not compulsory."

[Kiathos]

Hello,

Thanks for this thread that have inspired me and give me some hope to play sometime when I'm not at home.

I have just bought a Macbook with apple M1 - 16Go ram for work.

I have try to make a fair comparison between this MacBook and my Alienware computer for ONI.

Config: ONI without Space out activated - around 30 mods (blueprint, additional overlay, etc)  - Party of 20 dupes at Cycle 571

I have try with my 4K monitor and without to see the difference and make a fair comparison with a "real" gaming computer.

• Apple M1 2560*1600 - Loading save : 25 sec
• Apple M1 4K - Timing for Extra zoom out (all the map) : 26 sec
• PC i9 9900K 64Go RTX2080 ti 4K - Timing for Extra zoom out (all the map) : 25 sec

• Apple M1 2560*1600 - Timing for Extra zoom out (all the map) : 25 fps
• Apple M1 4K - Timing for Extra zoom out (all the map) : 20 fps
• PC i9 9900K 64Go RTX2080 ti 4K - Timing for Extra zoom out (all the map) : 45 fps

• Apple M1 2560*1600 - Timing for Extra zoom out (all the map) + Temperature overlay : 14 fps
• Apple M1 4K - Timing for Extra zoom out (all the map) + Temperature overlay : 10 fps
• PC i9 9900K 64Go RTX2080 ti 4K - Timing for Extra zoom out (all the map) + Temperature overlay : 20 fps

• Apple M1 2560*1600 - Play slow : 35-40 fps
• Apple M1 4K - Play slow : 35 fps
• PC i9 9900K 64Go RTX2080 ti 4K - Play slow : 50-55 fps

• Apple M1 2560*1600 - Play medium : 30-32 fps
• Apple M1 4K - Play medium : 30 fps
• PC i9 9900K 64Go RTX2080 ti 4K - Play medium : 45-50 fps

• Apple M1 2560*1600 - Play fast : 28 fps
• Apple M1 4K - Play fast : 25 fps
• PC i9 9900K 64Go RTX2080 ti 4K - Play fast : 35-40 fps

With a not too big base (20 dupes here), the game is absolutely playable (like never on Mac before). It's a stunning result for me. The game use Rosetta to emulate x86 ! The potential is real. The next few years will be fun for hardware. 
In 4K, I think Graphic is a lot of work for apple M1 chip. Still on my old MacBook, even 1080p was not really playable.
I haven't tested yet on Space out but I expect the game to work very fine. With multiple small maps (I hope they will increase it, it's too small...), we can expect less performance problem related to single thread frequency and a better use of multiple core.

In attachement screenshot of manage processes when game play at fast speed on both PC and apple M1.
 

 

 

[PickPay]

21 hours ago, Kiathos said:

I have try to make a fair comparison between this MacBook and my Alienware computer for ONI.

Thanks a lot for sharing your results. Glad the MB is viable for you to game on

I'm not sure what your measures about zooming mean. Also you didn't note the resolution the PC runs at ?

I can't tell for sure about the intel processor but the GFX card is top of the line (before 30xx series) which I know matters less but anyway overall the M1 does fairly well.

[Kiathos]

About the zoom. It's not important but it's a good stress test for the game. If you use debug or have the Max zoom out mod, you can see all the map at the same time. This seems to be the baddest performance you have with the game. Th'at's why I have include but it's not important very important for the game. (I still like to zoom out more than what Klei give by default)

The Pc was in 4k resolution also.

The future for Apple seems very good. It's still far better to play on a good pc now. Also, have Adaptative sync or Gsync is useful and that is not available on Mac side.

 

[Gurgel]

On 12/17/2020 at 1:06 AM, Kiathos said:

Config: ONI without Space out activated - around 30 mods (blueprint, additional overlay, etc)  - Party of 20 dupes at Cycle 571

These results are very interesting. Sure, the M1 is somewhat behind, but it is not outclassed at all. And that is with some translation loss, if I understand the set-up correctly. Hence native performance may still be 5...10% higher or so. 

I would expect they still need two or three generations to catch up fully, but that is not a surprise. With these numbers I have no doubt they will catch up though.

[teh_hunterer]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:42 AM, babba said:

ONi is a CPU demanding heavy game, it runs well on CPUs which draw +100 watt power and with systems which shift a lot of heat away with good cooling ( optimal: no case, +1kilo air cooler or water cooling ).

With these specs, if you would get ONi running in native mode, I would recommend to play with 1/16 of the games maps size, to reduce the amount of required calculations. If the game could utilize all the pocket calculator cores it would be a better story. Using extensively more cores creates more calculation overhead and makes the game crashier, as too much needs to be calculated in a fixed given amount of time without strong multiple core dependencies.

5 GHz on 1 core, drawing 200 watts of practical power runs the game good, that`s the reality I am afraid. Would instantly fry the tiny A company notebook case. You need a proper gaming notebook which emits hairdryer heat out of the back and the 2 kilo battery is flat after 20 minutes on a fully excavated and built ONi map

Not to be rude, but you seem to be heavily out of touch here and don't seem to know what you're talking about. What matters here isn't power draw or ghz, but actual performance.

The M1 chip roasts CPUs that pull 5-10x the wattage. Look at Geekbench scores. I play ONI on a Ryzen 2600 over 60fps on huge maps, and the M1 is objectively a MUCH faster CPU than that, drawing a third of the wattage (13ish watts vs 65 watts).

Geekbench:

Intel Core i9-9900K: Single core: 1321 - Multi core: 8650

Ryzen 5 2600: Single core: 966 - Multi core: 5246

Apple M1 MacBook Pro: Single core: 1744 - Multi core: 7618 - all that performance with a combined wattage between the CPU and GPU of 18w-20w.

If ONI is running worse on the M1 it's because it's x86 code and not running natively on the M1 chip which is ARM, plus games on the Mac just don't tend to run as well as they do on Windows (with the same hardware), which is pretty well known.

I think everyone else here is too polite to call it, but your posts in this thread are pretty much unhelpful misinformation.

[babba]

It does make a difference if a cpu gets water cooling or a few kilo heavy air cooler ( without system case ) plus 500-1000 watt power supply and good mainboard for max power draw. Doesn`t matter which cpu is taken. I find it nice to modify hardware, in order to get 20-50% more effective calculation power out of a system.

A good cpu reference is the AMD Ryzen 5 5600x, high single thread performer at usd299 launch price.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

In other posts in this thread it is confirmed that the Apple M1 is a good cpu. It will push Intel and AMD to further invest in new cpu developments. The more cpu competition - The better.

For system enthusiasts it could be joy to add additional cooling and power supply modify m1 cpu`s/system and perhaps try to change voltages. bypass cpu power draw limitations and software/hardware Apple locks. If an Apple system has the cpu soldered to the mainboard and if one likes the Apple Software world - The Apple user is happy. Apples success is the easy system use, people using a stock system with rarely ( being able to ) hardware modify it for more calculation speed.

In a perfect world, one could take any cpu and drop it in to any board The success story of the "PC".

Inclusion is always good, the more players can play ONi, the more income for the devs and the more game content for all of us So Apple system owners helping each other with ONi issues, that is great. It is nice that it nowadays is a bit more possible to speed compared non x86 cpus with other other cpu architectures.

Merry Xmas

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_m1-1804-vs-amd_ryzen_5_5600x-1750

[teh_hunterer]

I'm just not sure what you mean with all this. What's your point? You could throw more power or cooling at the i9 9900k to get a bit more performance, but look at the numbers. Single core performance geekbench score of the 13 watt M1 is 1744, and the 95 watt i9 9900k gets a respectable but completely outclassed 1321.

So it's not about ghz or power draw, it's about actual performance. You seem to be interested in pushing systems beyond factory settings and paying for it in terms of heat and power draw. I am more interested in architectural improvements that give you more performance with less power usage and heat, at the cost of more money and no customisation. And that's a fun thing to talk about, but nothing said really seems that relevant to the original question asked in the thread,

I am very interested to see how well Apple Silicon performs if ONI receives an update to make it natively compatible. Though Mac versions of games often suffer severely degraded performance compared to Windows versions, which is unfortunate. I'm sick of having to keep my big loud PC tower that I built around and maintained in order to get the best experience in games. I always keep an eye on things like Apple Silicon because I would love to have a small passively cooled device be able to provide the kind of gaming traditionally only possible on desktop PCs and traditional consoles.

[babba]

1 hour ago, teh_hunterer said:

II am very interested to see how well Apple Silicon performs if ONI receives an update to make it natively compatible. Though Mac versions of games often suffer severely degraded performance compared to Windows versions, which is unfortunate.

The game mainly utilizes a single core. Do you currently find the game running too slow on the Apple m1 cpu? There have been user forum posts that ONi can run fine on the m1. In general good single core cpu perfomers run the game well.

The base game and the dlc are currently two different games. The dlc version runs fast in the beginning, due to starting initially with a smaller map - Compared to the base game, which has a bigger single map initially accessible to the player. The devs are busy and behind schedule on implementing dlc content and on merging the dlc with the base game, in view of your native arm/apple os question.

https://doesitarm.com/game/oxygen-not-included/

In this thread some Apple users have stated that they are happy with how the base game runs. If one wants to play huge maps, the faster a single core runs, the better. The devs have considered slower systems by starting with smaller maps in the dlc. The devs perhaps have merged the dlc and base game foundation rework sometime between Summer-Winter 2021, as a guestimate. The dlc can run fine on passive cooled computer systems, depending on how much gets excavated in the game maps and how many dupes and creatures are hopping around. The faster one makes a system, the more can happen at high frame rates in the game.

Perhaps @PickPay @Kiathos or some other Apple user can give you some more practical Apple feedback on the base game or dlc 

On 11/17/2020 at 11:20 PM, PickPay said:

Any plans on optimizing the game for the new architecture ? So far the M1 chip is pretty impressive, both the CPU as well as the GPU which easily beats any integrated graphics.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Again, you seem to be deliberately missing the point in order to keep posting barely relevant replies. You clearly had 0 actual information to offer in your original response to the OP, but you still sat down to post a wall of text reply that at best added nothing to the discussion and at worst muddied the waters with incorrect or useless info.

Instead of trying to appear relevant or useful to the casual observer, perhaps you should consider whether you actually have anything to add.

[babba]

Just now, teh_hunterer said:

Again, you seem to be deliberately missing the point in order to keep posting barely relevant replies. You clearly had 0 actual information to offer in your original response to the OP, but you still sat down to post a wall of text reply that at best added nothing to the discussion and at worst muddied the waters with incorrect or useless info.

Instead of trying to appear relevant or useful to the casual observer, perhaps you should consider whether you actually have anything to add.

I see you came to the forum to be offensive and not thankful, which is sad. Wishing you a nice time in the game nonetheless.

[PickPay]

I stayed focused on the subject to avoid arguments even though the discussion went off topic a few times already... 

Anyway I'd still like to know if Klei plans on a M1 specific update. I'd understand if they didn't do it for the base game perhaps though since the DLC is under development it could receive optimizations.

I noticed a recurring bug with all the Overlays that won't display properly after the auto save. I don't know if it's M1 Mac specific as I can't test on my intel Mac at the moment.

[babba]

@PickPay Free beer and coffee from me

Are you happy with the m1 performance and the base game or dlc frame rate ? Reading the past posts it seems to run good ? ...Which would be great It will take Klei some busy time to merge the base game with the dlc, as a guestimate summer-winter 2021 until its all under the hood.

[gabberworld]

just remember, they develop game in the Unity engine, this gind optimization what you ask comes from them usually not from game developers

[PickPay]

@babbaPerformance with the base game is great so far (again I don't build huge bases). I don't have the DLC yet.

@gabberworld ah interesting !

[babba]

1 hour ago, PickPay said:

@babbaPerformance with the base game is great so far (again I don't build huge bases). I don't have the DLC yet.

@gabberworld ah interesting !

Cool

If interested...This is a good way to stress a cpu with the game:

1.) Start debug 2.) Make 100% empty, full-size-base-game-default-map-size 3.) Make every map tile a magma-copying-ladder tile 4.) Fill 50% of the map with lava, the other 50% with water, covering the ladders 5.) Add 100 dupes falling from the top. # Then start the simulation and see how a system is FPS coping. If the system does not crash then the cpu is running in a stable computer system and/or one did not experience a Klei game crash bug.

If Klei wanted to make native Arm cpu/os support they would announce it. They are busy to present all dlc content to the players and merging the dlc and base game over the next 6 months ( IMHO 1 year ) as they are reworking the base game. In my opinion it will be a superb game package for me in 1-1.5 years, once all rockets are back in the game (dlc) I will start playing it again....All rockets will hopefully be back in the game in 3 months, praying. In the worst case I have to wait half a years for all base game rockets to be back in the game. Its a very small team which has no time for fancy os things, they are very stressed doing the mentioned above in 2021.

[PickPay]

I’m not expecting them to do extra work. But they could at least say : « yes » « no » or « we will see »

they already know this much they just have to communicate, unless I missed the information somewhere. It’s not some « fancy OS thing » it’s supporting the future of a platform or not. Unless they did internal tests just the fact I brought this topic up and did testing is enough in my opinion to take a minute to reply.

It’s called professionalism.

[babba]

https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook