TripleM999 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Lifegrow said: Yeah, just like I said - "It's borked af" I would say, it was borked before, now it is borked another way. The heat equalizing was a solution, which could itself invalidate some exchanger builds cause of its horizontal instant heat movement. The swapping would introduce the same problem with its rapid heat movement. The main problem in my opinion is, that indeed gas to gas conductivity is much too low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Lifegrow said: "It's borked af" I'm disappointed. You could have done much better. Maybe you held it in a little so you wouldn't get banned. 5 hours ago, Lifegrow said: a collection of expletives to express the mood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 Just now, mathmanican said: I'm disappointed. You could have done much better. Maybe you held it in a little so you wouldn't get banned. It's a nonsensical cavalcade of ineptitude, rash decisions and blunderbuggery. Better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lifegrow said: Better Much. Though I did miss seeing this till after I posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 So, @klei.ruby I often ask for your insight, any thoughts ? Edit : by the way, this puppy scales dramatically... Seems to be single element predominantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleM999 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I have to admit, i have trouble to imagine, how or where the changed mechanic would influence your mostly vertical builds significantly different than before the patch. Vertical heat exchange was terrible before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, TripleM999 said: I have to admit, i have trouble to imagine, how or where the changed mechanic would influence your mostly vertical builds significantly different than before the patch. Vertical heat exchange was terrible before. I disagree, i'd regularly use the fact that heat rises and cold sinks - condense from the bottom, boil at the top etc. Now that all goes to cock if things can exchange temperature over (and i'm not kidding) 300+ cells distance. It's nonsense, and we shouldn't be happy to accept changes like this. What's next? We wouldn't be happy if this were a physical object - imagine if the contents of your sweet little slickster ranch suddenly were blasted 300 tiles northwards, there'd be riots! Anyone who settles on this as normal acceptable game mechanics is either braindead or one of those "i'm more of a fan of exploitable game quirks than solid game design" kind of people - both of those type of people can take a running jump as far as i'm concerned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleM999 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Sorry, had not got a chance to look at your video. 1 hour ago, Lifegrow said: Ok : the plot thickens - little video uploading now, @mathmanican @TripleM999 you may want to see this... Ok, THIS is really funny. And now, that you showed this, i remember some similar weird stuff happened in my big SG thingy. From time to time big chunks of liquid methane were teleported to the top of my cooling chimney. This seemed at that time connected to flaking, as it left behind a 5kg NG bucket. Maybe that could be an explanation, though a strange one. The hotter NG on top of the fresh liquid methane would flake of a 5kg tile, but then this liquid has no place to go (as down it is constrained by the metal tiles). Could you please check, if at the moment, the liquid methane is teleported, a 5kg pocket of NG is at the tile, where the liquid was before? And it is not a consequence of the reworked gas dynamic, but the reworked flaking, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Lifegrow said: blunderbuggery That extra blob of liquid, that teleports to the top. I wonder if that blob is connected to the fix they made to CO2 being forced to appear in specific spots. I doubt it was just a specific one element change. They made a change to the way gasses appear into the world. Could this change affect condensation as well (if there is no liquid currently there to condense into)? It does not appear to be a gas mechanic. And I don't think it is related to flaking either, @TripleM999, but who knows. (The methane blob was 53.7 kg, of course we didn't get to see the bottom if it was at 5kg). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 @mathmanican @TripleM999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleM999 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 14 minutes ago, Lifegrow said: @mathmanican @TripleM999 WOW... it is flaking. And it drives the liquid as high, as flaking conditions are present (like liquid over 5kg). The liquid everytime is displaced one tile higher by the new child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 I told you guys it was borked. (grabs soap box) "THEY'LL TRY AND TELL YOU YOU'RE CRAZY, THEY'LL SAY THINGS LIKE "This is closer to real calculations than previously *snort* it's always been like this *sniff* I've had no problems with my builds..." - BUT NAY! NAY SAYS I. WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, TripleM999 said: it is flaking I agree completely. @klei.ruby, this definitely appears to be the issue. Thanks @Lifegrow for capturing it fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, mathmanican said: I agree completely. @klei.ruby, this definitely appears to be the issue. Thanks @Lifegrow for capturing it fully. You're welcome, now I must sleep. xox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Lifegrow said: "THEY'LL TRY AND TELL YOU YOU'RE CRAZY, THEY'LL SAY THINGS LIKE "This is closer to real calculations than previously *snort* it's always been like this Well, you are showing that "flaking" is borked in a "gas heat transfer is borked" thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, mathmanican said: Well, you are showing that "flaking" is borked in a "gas heat transfer is borked" thread... *AHEM* On 7/14/2020 at 6:14 AM, Lifegrow said: As far as how damaging this is, I really have no idea of the full implications yet - it's only when we find more builds-behaving-badly, and explore the broken things in detail that we finally start to understand what causes x to happen. I was recently toying with a build using liquid CO2 to condense steam - not a tricky concept, and one we've no doubt all done before at some point. This time however it was definitely impacted by this change, and in the specific build I was working on, I ended up needing multiple radiators/tempshifts/bridges and unnecessary malarkey to simply average out the temperature of gas within a 20x10 room. That isn't the ONI I left 6 months ago, something has been fundamentally broken. This is all part and parcel of the same janky gas mechanics that started this thread sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleM999 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 The visuals though remind me of the violent delayed boiling in a test tube (i learned today, bumping is the english term for it). So not fully broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0xFADE Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 That is some quantum chicanery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneFinn Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 hours ago, TripleM999 said: WOW... it is flaking. And it drives the liquid as high, as flaking conditions are present (like liquid over 5kg). The liquid everytime is displaced one tile higher by the new child. so the "pocket" of cold liquid gets propelled upwards on its own evaporated exhaust gas like a little bottle rocket? As much as I recognise how broken this is the imagery is fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Lifegrow said: This is all part and parcel of the same janky gas mechanics that started this thread sir! Of course. Just pulling your pig tails as an immature little school boy would do. (Mostly, I was in the mood for another string of expletives.) I'm a little more serious today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Another rad discovery @Lifegrow! Can we call it the Flake Fountain? In case anyone is confused about what flaking is or why it's doing this: the insulated tile walls are currently hotter than the boiling point of methane, so shortly after methane is generated, 5kg at a time of methane is converted to natural gas, taking heat from the adjacent tile without regards for conductivity (it happens with insulation insulated tiles too). Anyone who has built their liquid hydrogen conversion room with such walls has probably been confused by their hydrogen boiling like crazy for a few cycles. This will stop happening once the tiles cool down. The new observation is the upwards instant chain reaction. If this is new, it's probably because they changed where the child spawns. I believe flaking is calculated left to right then bottom to top. So the first flaking is bottom left, and merges the remaining liquid to the right. Then the right one displaces up, then later on the next row above is checked. The orders of operation that result in the Flake Fountain seem to go something like this. G = Ordinary Natural Gas L = Ordinary Liquid Methane P = Parent Liquid Methane (currently being calculated) C = Child Natural Gas (5kg, was just calculated) Game state left number, tile calculation right number (F = final rendered game state) 0F 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1F GG GG GG GG GG GG GG GL GP GC GG GG GG GG GG GL GP GC GC GL GG GG GG GL GP GC GC GC GC GC LL PL CP CC CC CC CC CC CC CC This example assumes the surroundings are above-boiling-point solids and there is more than enough liquid mass to continuously flake. In this situation it keeps flaking until the liquid reaches the ceiling, and then once more, placing 5kg at the top, moving the remaining liquid to the 2nd tile below the ceiling, and compressing the third tile below to 10kg gas. This is why the drop appeared on the 2nd tile below the top in lifegrow's first video. Spoiler If the room is one tile wide, the liquid will not delete the fully compressed gas and ends up 3 tiles below instead. And um.. oops. I broke something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, nakomaru said: And um.. oops. I broke something. This last one is just the fact that if gas turns to liquid inside an airflow tile, then it will teleport upwards until it finds a place to spawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneFinn Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, mathmanican said: This last one is just the fact that if gas turns to liquid inside an airflow tile, then it will teleport upwards until it finds a place to spawn. Yup I have a cool steam vent powered teleporting ethanol waterfall (mostly just for fun, although it allowed me to use a rust biome as a heat sink before I had turbines) in my current playthrough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleM999 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 58 minutes ago, nakomaru said: And um.. oops. I broke something. I have seen this before... And i'm hoping to so (ab)use this in near future. If i understand it right, the gas will condense, and teleport upwards... so no chance to solidify, regardless of temperature, the cooler is driven with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Yeah, that build is the first one I saw utilize it too, but I didn't realize it would teleport like solidifying dirt or exhaled CO2. (They tried to fix CO2, and I've seen liquid stay in airflow tiles.) Oh, now I see. kbn demonstrates it explicitly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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