Heated door deletion bug

[OxCD]

Hi all

Have fun everyone :

 

Prickly point is I don't know yet if it's affecting all thermal setup including contact door we already have, which could be... a lot.

@mathmanican Christmas time !

Have a nice day folks

[Gurgel]

I see some big cooling contraptions coming up!

[yoakenashi]

Speaking of heat deletion to 20 degC:

 

[psusi]

Not surprising really, given that we know that doors are really a pair of metal tiles that are deleted when opened and spawned back in when closed.

[mathmanican]

5 hours ago, OxCD said:

Have fun everyone

This is probably a consequence of the "fix" to the metal cannon. You can't melt doors for free metal anymore. Instead, you can temp reset things. So I guess this is the new water sieve.  There are still lots of other ways to destroy heat as well.  

[suxkar]

5 hours ago, OxCD said:

Hi all

Have fun everyone :

 

Prickly point is I don't know yet if it's affecting all thermal setup including contact door we already have, which could be... a lot.

@mathmanican Christmas time !

Have a nice day folks

Are you joking? I have a trillion setups based on doors conducting heat

[mathmanican]

4 minutes ago, suxkar said:

Are you joking? I have a trillion setups based on doors conducting heat

Agreed. This bug will pretty much be death to any build that uses doors to start/stop heat transfer.  Death might be too strong, but you'll loose a lot of heat having to continuously reheat the metal door...  Sad day.  

[suxkar]

1 minute ago, mathmanican said:

Agreed. This bug will pretty much be death to any build that uses doors to start/stop heat transfer.  Death might be too strong, but you'll loose a lot of heat having to continuously reheat the metal door...  Sad day.  

I've just cheked my Francis John(TM) petroleum boiler, the temperature on the door doesn't seem to flicker AT ALL!

[OxCD]

59 minutes ago, suxkar said:

I've just cheked my Francis John(TM) petroleum boiler, the temperature on the door doesn't seem to flicker AT ALL!

Then there must be some other conditions that I didn't identify yet.

[wachunga]

In practice I don't think this is really a big deal. It ought to be fixed of course, but we shouldn't stress all that much about it.

 

When closed, doors are just 2 normal solid cells with a facade covering them. Clicking a door will first give you info about that facade, clicking more will bring you to the underlying cells eventually.  These 2 cells can have different temperatures, the temperature of the facade is that of the cell with the power port. When set to open, the door averages these 2 temperatures and starts the opening animation. Once open, the 2 cells are removed and the facade gets it's temperature set to that average. When set to close, the closing animation starts. Once closed, the 2 cells are added back with the temperature of the facade.

The bug seems to be that the average value comes from the beginning of the opening animation but the cells remain and can interact with the environment until the animation completes. You can make a door create heat by cooling them down while opening the door.

Which brings me to why I don't think this is a particularly huge deal. In actual play, the temperature of the door at the start of the animation won't be much different than the temperature of the door at the end of the animation.

Powering the door ought to lessen the impact of the bug I would think. The faster the animation completes, the less time there is for the door's temperature to diverge.

 

Edit:

It appears that sending a green automation signal while the door is in the closing animation will skip the animation for purposes of the cells. They spring into existence even with the animation still playing. Not sure if there is a greater implication of this offhand. 

 

[psusi]

2 minutes ago, wachunga said:

The bug seems to be that the average value comes from the beginning of the opening animation but the cells remain and can interact with the environment until the animation completes. You can make a door create heat by cooling them down while opening the door.

Ahh, makes sense.

[wachunga]

There appears to be another bug in addition to what I described in the previous post.

 

I'll refer to the 2 cells in the door as the "door cell" for the cell with the power port (the door displays this cell's temperature) and the "off cell" for the other cell.

When a door first receives a green signal, the off cell instantly changes it's temperature to that of the door cell. During the remainder of the animation, normal temperature exchanges seem to apply. Depending on how the door is orientated, this instant change in temperature can either create or delete heat. If the off cell is the cold side of the door, heat is created. If the off cell is the hot side of the door, heat is deleted.

The greater the gradient in the door's temperature, the greater the creation/deletion. My test example is an iron ore door with -80C thermium on one side and 120C thermium on the other. At equilibrium, one door cell is 108C and the other is -68C. 200kg of iron ore going from -68C to 108C creates 15,800 kJ of heat. Or that could be deletion. Assuming of course there is no other buggy behavior which reverses the creation/deletion, which may not be a safe assumption.

Building a contraption to both maintain a large temperature gradient and harvest the heat created/deleted is another story.

 

Edit:

I was making a save to easily demonstrate this behavior, but loading a save does the bug. The off cell gets the temperature of the door when loading a save regardless of what it's temperature was when saving the save. So you'll have to take my word for it or construct and run the test yourself.

[wachunga]

I was bored and made a test save to show the macroscopic effect of the bug(s).

Top left shows heat deletion. Top right shows heat creation. Bottom two are controls. Flip the switch, let it run for about a cycle, and then flip the switch again. Give it a bit to equalize some then compare the top builds to their controls. For the left side heat deletion, it's most apparent in the temps of the tiles but shows up in the reservoir liquid as well. For the right side heat creation, it's the reverse.

Door Bug.sav

 

To minimize the bug, I would advise using a highly conductive material for the door like aluminum ore or steel. And build it with plates like so:

Taken together there is little difference in temperature of the 2 door cells and thus the bug doesn't do very much.

Or perhaps better yet, from a bug avoidance perspective:

I like plates with my door transfer though.

[Yalp]

I did some testing on the Temperature Amplification a while back. The data is not really fit for presentation, but if someone is interested, knock yourself out:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Bscu7Ny1YLwRqYseTN7ObOM2u6w5x9CNCPEBBXf7hw/edit?usp=sharing
(See second tab for one of the test builds)

Some of the more theoretical setups allowed to amplify the energy by a factor of x200. With Plastic it was even off the charts (x400 in an even older test).

The more applicable builds/materials for a TempAMP with reasonable heat transfer are more in the x5 - x15 range irrc.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of variables and results will greatly depend on them.

 

I also played around with combining the TempAMP and the Metal press in the last patch...

Making one run of steel in the Metal Refinery would allow you to make around 150 t of Tungsten, some Niobium, and about 600 t of steel (liquid at 2430°C)...

I planned on making a proper video on it, but it never happend, so here's the raw clip:

Spoiler

(This was done in Survival Mode, only QoL Mods)

 

 

[OxCD]

@Yalp do you still have the .save of this build ? I would be really interested to have a deeper look into...

 

[Yalp]

23 minutes ago, OxCD said:

@Yalp do you still have the .save of this build ? I would be really interested to have a deeper look into...

I do tend to keep saves.

Start = starting state, res = result

eff = was testing with for timings

 

Edit: 
Packed the files, didn't expect it to look as messy as it did .

 

TempAMP.rar

[wachunga]

@Yalp I greatly applaud your thoroughness!

 

Pretty sure I follow along with everything, but it's a lot to take in. Anything about the results that jumped out at you?

How far back was this? In the days when plastic had crazy high conductivity, or after it was changed?

I've always known doors were a bit weird, but never dove into any great depth until now. Obviously you were aware, any good previous discussions on the subject?

Also I would like to say that I use 1,000,000kg thermium blocks in my testing as well  .

 

[Yalp]

49 minutes ago, wachunga said:

Anything about the results that jumped out at you?

For the most part it was just confirming assumptions. Minimize heat transfer within the door to minimize heat 'loss'. So Iron is king if the temperatures allow it.
I did expect a timing between 0.2 (1 in-game tick) and 0.5  to be most efficient, but apparently 1.1 s came out on top. This might be different for other Δt.

 

Musing on it for a bit; I wonder if you could run a (almost) whole map full of steam turbines from a single volcano and a chain of TempAMPs ...

 

1 hour ago, wachunga said:

any good previous discussions on the subject?

Nothing that stuck out to me. I'm not as active (lurking) on the forum as I used to though.

 

1 hour ago, wachunga said:

Also I would like to say that I also use 1,000,000kg thermium blocks in my testing  .

This is the way. Just don't forget the TSP .