Exploit karma

[lee1026]

Different exploit: previewing your map via tools not included and be able to beeline for everything that you want. 

[Gurgel]

13 hours ago, lee1026 said:

Different exploit: previewing your map via tools not included and be able to beeline for everything that you want. 

Naa, that is just selecting one (of many) futures proactively!

[Bluefoxfire]

Exploits, to me, truly become a problem when people try to force others to use it via peer pressure style tactics, like how they make it sound like if you don't use (E) then you're a scrub. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Or it somehow corrupts your game code and makes it unplayable or the like(mods don't count for this).

[Zarquan]

2 hours ago, Bluefoxfire said:

Exploits, to me, truly become a problem when people try to force others to use it via peer pressure style tactics, like how they make it sound like if you don't use (E) then you're a scrub. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Or it somehow corrupts your game code and makes it unplayable or the like(mods don't count for this).

I don't think I've seen things like that.  I see people suggest exploits to improve builds, but they don't apply pressure if you specifically say you are avoiding specific exploits.  In fact, in my experience, if something is generally done with an exploit and you find a way to do it without, the community is usually happy with it. 

[Gurgel]

12 hours ago, Bluefoxfire said:

Exploits, to me, truly become a problem when people try to force others to use it via peer pressure style tactics, like how they make it sound like if you don't use (E) then you're a scrub. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Well, some people do that. One of the reasons I have 12 people here on ignore. This is a standard conformity mechanism IMO, where people try to justify their own choices and try to elevate themselves at the same time by convincing as many others as possible to do the same as they did. A customary tactics is denigration of different choices. The whole thing boils down to some leadership idea and safety in numbers (of followers).

For ONI, it is basically so far off the nature of the game that it can really be a problem, I agree. My approach is to ignore those that do it and to do my own designs. There are plenty of people here that do the same. Also, I think this problem has no good external solution (like moderation). Many people are just wired to follow some "leader" and some people just crave to be that leader, regardless of actual skill or insights. (Refer to daily politics for examples...) This works pretty much the same in small things and in large ones. The only thing you can do is to develop resistance to peer pressure and also to maintain good sense in addition, because sometimes (not very often) the direction you are pressured in is actually the right one.

[TheMule]

On 4/24/2020 at 1:15 AM, Bluefoxfire said:

Exploits, to me, truly become a problem when people try to force others to use it via peer pressure style tactics, like how they make it sound like if you don't use (E) then you're a scrub. Yeah, that kind of thing.

I find that what happens is exactly the opposite. People apply pressure to have other people stop using what (according to their very personal opinion) are exploits.Even the word 'exploit' has a negative ring to it. This very thread started with a post that defined geysers as exploits. Explicit citing 'karma penalty'. Making it sound like if you do use them, you're a cheater.

[Gurgel]

3 hours ago, TheMule said:

 Explicit citing 'karma penalty'. Making it sound like if you do use them, you're a cheater.

That too, both factions exists. Some go so far to do virtue signalling (one of the most stupid acts imaginable) in their supposed purity. In a single-player game. 

Now, in anything multiplayer, cheating is bad because you harm others. But in single-player, the whole idea if "cheating" does not even work. 

[Zarquan]

Personally, I think everything's an exploit. 

I'm currently using the electric potential and semiconductor exploit (among others) to communicate with other players of this game right now.  When I am done with that exploit, I will use the 12 cm light wavelength light-box (microwave) exploit to heat myself some food that has been preserved using coldness caused by heat pump exploit in my freezer.  Then, I will use a cylinder-with-one-end-open exploit to contain liquid water (which should otherwise only fall down and get everywhere) which I will then drink to hydrate while I eat my lunch.  Some people from 800 years ago would burn me as a witch or something for using this many exploits.

After that, I will probably play the game and exploit the farming mechanic to get my duplicants food, exploit the digging mechanic to get myself materials and space, exploit the numerous volcanoes on the map to generate petroleum and electricity and rock, exploiting the electolyzers to my duplicants can breathe, exploit ladders so they can move around vverticaly, exploit doors and tiles to then further exploit the room mechanic to keep my duplicants happy, etc.  The list goes on.

I pride myself on my Exploit Karma Golf, where I go for the lowest number possible (except Youtube channel hacking, that's just wrong), as I live in an age of technology and revel in it.

[lee1026]

There are exploits that make the game a lot easier that is absolutely beyond the pale for most players through.

 

For example, if I press "backspace" I get to spawn a lot of things into existence. I don't think people will appreciate it very much if I answer any "how do I achieve X" questions with "press backspace and just spawn it".

[Zarquan]

31 minutes ago, lee1026 said:

For example, if I press "backspace" I get to spawn a lot of things into existence. I don't think people will appreciate it very much if I answer any "how do I achieve X" questions with "press backspace and just spawn it".

There is a difference between things perceived as faults in the physics laws of the ONI universe and the debug tools are specifically outside the rules of the physical universe.

That said, almost anything created in debug can be created in survival.  I build most of my builds in debug to test them before I build them in survival.  In fact, many of the builds you see are built in debug, but that is just because it is faster to build and experiment in debug, not because it can't be done in survival. 

For example, I created a petroleum boiler that I tested with up to 90 kg/s petroleum.  My heat source was an unlimited lava source that could spout magma on a heat sink.  How did I get that?  I spawned it in with debug.  Is it necessary?  No, you can use 2 volcanoes (if the math is correct) or another heat source.  But the infinite lava spout was convenient for testing, so I used it because the heat source wasn't the thing I was showcasing.

[psusi]

2 hours ago, Zarquan said:

Personally, I think everything's an exploit. 

And when everyone's super.... no one will be.

 

[lee1026]

Deeply, deeply, off topic, but anyone's actually got an example of a post that describe in detail how to do use the battery transformer properly?

[psusi]

13 hours ago, lee1026 said:

Deeply, deeply, off topic, but anyone's actually got an example of a post that describe in detail how to do use the battery transformer properly?

 

[TheDeamon]

On 4/18/2020 at 12:18 AM, Xenotrix said:

What about mechanical filter? I use it everywhere. How many karma i lost?

  Hide contents

 

You mean there are other types of filters? =P

Given my poor experiences with power blips causing filters to not work reliably, I basically default to mechanical filtering on everything unless I simply don't have the space or time to fuss with it.

[watermelen671]

Okay...but where does "using the dev generator" land on the karma scale?

[psusi]

3 hours ago, TheDeamon said:

 

Wait, what the heck is that?  I thought a mechanical filter was when you let the hydrogen sort to the top and the oxygen to the bottom of a SPOM.  What are those two bridges and valve supposed to do?  It looks to me like you have a permanent loop of a small amount of water circulating around through the valve so that the bridges can only add more water to the loop, not any other liquid, and whatever leftover that the valve doesn't let through overflows to the vent.  That's kind of genius.  Why does it have a second intake bridge though?  I would think just the one on the right would be enough.

[TheDeamon]

26 minutes ago, psusi said:

Wait, what the heck is that?  I thought a mechanical filter was when you let the hydrogen sort to the top and the oxygen to the bottom of a SPOM.  What are those two bridges and valve supposed to do?  It looks to me like you have a permanent loop of a small amount of water circulating around through the valve so that the bridges can only add more water to the loop, not any other liquid, and whatever leftover that the valve doesn't let through overflows to the vent.  That's kind of genius.  Why does it have a second intake bridge though?  I would think just the one on the right would be enough.

It "overflows" out the input of the mechanical valve, but as you're using an input as an output, you probably want to use a bridge elsewhere in the system to prevent things from "getting confused" and trying to flow in a direction you don't want it to go.

Beyond that, you're correct, it's a permanent loop of 1 gram(or less) of a selected material that perpetually runs around the loop and prevents anything else from entering the loop. So if the supply line backs up and stops moving, you don't need to worry about a filter gate triggering and allowing the wrong thing through a shutoff valve.

[psusi]

2 minutes ago, TheDeamon said:

It "overflows" out the input of the mechanical valve, but as you're using an input as an output, you probably want to use a bridge elsewhere in the system to prevent things from "getting confused" and trying to flow in a direction you don't want it to go.

I think you are talking about the bridge on the way to the vent.  I get that.  I'm wondering why there is a second bridge on the right sending liquid from the main pipe to the valve loop.

[TheDeamon]

7 minutes ago, psusi said:

I think you are talking about the bridge on the way to the vent.  I get that.  I'm wondering why there is a second bridge on the right sending liquid from the main pipe to the valve loop.

It operates in a counteflow, and because there is already 1 gram of material already in the pipe, It cannot accept "a full payload" from the other pipe. Which is where the second bridge in the line comes into play, and why that portion is running in opposition to the line feeding it.

So for a gas line, Bridge 1 takes it from 1000 grams to <1 gram, the second bridge takes it from <1 gram to 0.
 

 

[psusi]

Ahh, right.. second bridge is in case you get one ( or a few ) full packets in the pipe since the filter can actually only handle 999g per second in the filtered output.

[TheMule]

8 hours ago, psusi said:

Ahh, right.. second bridge is in case you get one ( or a few ) full packets in the pipe since the filter can actually only handle 999g per second in the filtered output.

Beware the both the filter with sensor + shutoff and this with valve+double bridge aren't 100% equivalent of the standard (powered) one. They need extra care when the 'wanted' output backs up. If that happens, the extra packets of the selected element just go past the filter. You can have a detector (double bridge + element sensor) to stop upstream flow, but it's not perfect and some packets can get thru.

They share the same property with the mechanical filter in SPOMs: you can make sure no O2 enters the H2 pump area with the one tile trick. You can't prevent H2 overflow into the O2 pump area. You either stop the electrolyzers or start burning extra H2 with generators.  

 

I find the element sensor + shutoff filter a bit less reliable, but you can easily change the element you're filtering for. The valve + double bridge one is rock solid (once you understand its limitations) but changing (or even priming) it is a bit trickier.

 

Oh, last thing. For both of them, I routinely add another bridge. Both output the 'wanted' element via overflowing the white port of either a valve or a shutoff. Which is technically a input port. It's ok if the pipe goes directly into another white port but if the piping is a bit more complicated you can have problems... for example if you add the green side of a bridge further down the pipe. So I always add a bridge to give direction away from the valve/shutoff. It's become part of the design for me.

And last last thing. If you happen to notice 999g packets coming out of the filter, double-check the orientation of the valve.

[Xenotrix]

3 hours ago, TheMule said:

Beware the both the filter with sensor + shutoff and this with valve+double bridge aren't 100% equivalent of the standard (powered) one. They need extra care when the 'wanted' output backs up.

Yes. Mechanical filter, shown above (gas valve + double bridge), have problem. If pipe blocked, gas skipped filter and walks past. I use extend mechanical filter design in critical place like SPOM.

Spoiler

 

[TheDeamon]

22 minutes ago, Xenotrix said:

Yes. Mechanical filter, shown above (gas valve + double bridge), have problem. If pipe blocked, gas skipped filter and walks past. I use extend mechanical filter design in critical place like SPOM.

Except that is a problem inherent in all of the three filter options.

The Gas Filter will allow packets to continue past it if the output is full, but costs 120 watts when any gas flows through.
The Gas Shutoff will allow packets to continue past if the output is full(and sometimes allows the wrong gas into the output if the input is full), but costs 10 watts when activated, and requires refined metals.
The Mechanical Filter will allow packets to continue past if the output is full, but costs additional time to setup.

I have a few variants I use, mostly because some of my applications for it are geared towards maximizing output, so if the filter output is full, it does get allowed to pass on down the line, if something "downstream" needs a different kind of filtered output, it has its own filter built to address that need.

But in all three cases, overflow conditions would need to be addressed regardless. But I too have been known to loop "overflow" back around to block the pumps in scenarios where I'm not focused on getting stuff out of one place and sent somewhere else. Why spend energy running a pump that doesn't need to run?

[psusi]

1 hour ago, TheDeamon said:

The Gas Filter will allow packets to continue past it if the output is full

Negative ghost rider: when the output of the powered filter is blocked, it stops.

[TheDeamon]

7 minutes ago, psusi said:

Negative ghost rider: when the output of the powered filter is blocked, it stops.

My bad, helps to pay attention to the source I myself cited, Brothgar's video tutorial also demonstrates that. I don't use the things as they're power hogs, but you are correct, they just stop if the output is blocked.