Help in Verdante?

[meepmoop]

I managed to some what handle the terra asteroid, I started a new game in Verdante (first time I do something other then terra/oceana).

In previous games, before I get refined metals I usually stick one electrolyzer in the frozen biome and pump air through there and it lasts me several hundreds of cycles of cold air. I also like to use wheezeworts until i get tuners and steam turbine.

However, now there are no wheezeworts either.

... soooo im kinda stack at the early game. no industry to make cooling, and no cold places on the map where I can make temporary early industry.

rust distiller also produces oxygen at 75C so its a no go... what about oxferns? the new plant that takes CO2 to create oxygen? is it vaiable if I use wild oxfern via pips? does it create enough oxygen for few dupes?

 

any tips or answers to those questions would be great help

[Gurgel]

If you have polluted water or cold slush geysers, you can use that directly or cool an aquatuner with it. For a more painful approach, you can also cool aquatuners with hot water or salt water or even steam. Does need careful temperature management if you only have gold, but I did it on Oasisse. You need to move very carefully, only expand when you are sure, but I ended up using the water from a single salt water geyser for cooling and fresh water. I think I got that up to 6 dupes in the end.

Oxyferns are usually not enough wild. I think you need 13 per dupe. Domesticated, you need 3.5 per dupe or so. You also need to make sure they have the CO2 to work on. I ended up running a wood generator from time to time on that Oasisse map to make sure there was enough CO2.

 

[suxkar]

Your base can survive for a VERY long time with hot oxygen. if your water is not too hot you can use it to cool the area around the electrolizer with radiant pipes, before you let the aforementioned water be transformed into oxygen and hydrogen. Then the hydrogen can be used to cool the hydrogen generators. Francis John uses this setup, works like a charm. Eventually the base will get too hot but it will take hundreds of cycles. You can find the model you are looking for at around 11:00

 

If you want to keep on the active cooling route, rust biomes are almost as cold as cold biomes. You might want to oxygenate the area though, the native carbon dioxyde is a TERRIBLE heat exchanger.

Finally, there should be plenty of water, polluted water and salt water around. Just use a pool as temporary heat sink for metal refinment until you can setup petroleum production. At that point you can get a bit of plastic for steam turbines and you can basically do whatever you want.

On a side note, if you have a magma volcano, you should switch to petroleum boiling, which doubles you energy basically. Have a tour of Francis John's channel, it changed my game experience 

[yoakenashi]

The ice maker is a must in these situations. I am playing Aridio, where the temp is normally above 35C so mealwood doesn’t grow. You can create a cool little farm, and surround it with insulated tile.

[Promethien]

Something people don't realize right away about Verdante is that it isn't as warm as other maps. Even its slime biomes aren't as warm. So you don't need a cold biome to pump your stuff through as a temp solution.

Set up an insulated barrier for an industrial area. Use a pair of water locks and vaccuum if you insist on a perfect seal. Viola problem solved. 

Yes, use oxyferns. No they are not useful wild. My last Verdante I was still using them long after I had set up other air sources. This is because their water to oxygen conversion is the absolute best. Its just slow. You will have to restrict yourself to 3 or 4 dupes until you get an electrolyzer up. You can pump the air from the electrolyzer directly into your base as you'll still be getting a lot of oxygen from the ferns. Just make sure all outlets are far away from your farm and the heat won't be a problem until you can set something else up. 

[KILLABUDZ]

Smooth hatches can refine metal at 50% mass like a rock crusher and generate no heat while also giving you meat.
Dreckos can make plastic and reed for suits.
Get to ranching, then build your first steam turbine and aquatuner and then you can make a thermal block at whatever temp you want.
You can use this to clean water for you by piping in salt or pwater and it will come out of the steam turbine hot but clean, leaving the impurity in the steam chamber.

[meepmoop]

1 hour ago, yoakenashi said:

The ice maker is a must in these situations. I am playing Aridio, where the temp is normally above 35C so mealwood doesn’t grow. You can create a cool little farm, and surround it with insulated tile.

 

1 hour ago, Promethien said:

Something people don't realize right away about Verdante is that it isn't as warm as other maps. Even its slime biomes aren't as warm. So you don't need a cold biome to pump your stuff through as a temp solution.

Set up an insulated barrier for an industrial area. Use a pair of water locks and vaccuum if you insist on a perfect seal. Viola problem solved. 

Yes, use oxyferns. No they are not useful wild. My last Verdante I was still using them long after I had set up other air sources. This is because their water to oxygen conversion is the absolute best. Its just slow. You will have to restrict yourself to 3 or 4 dupes until you get an electrolyzer up. You can pump the air from the electrolyzer directly into your base as you'll still be getting a lot of oxygen from the ferns. Just make sure all outlets are far away from your farm and the heat won't be a problem until you can set something else up. 

 

1 hour ago, KILLABUDZ said:

Smooth hatches can refine metal at 50% mass like a rock crusher and generate no heat while also giving you meat.
Dreckos can make plastic and reed for suits.
Get to ranching, then build your first steam turbine and aquatuner and then you can make a thermal block at whatever temp you want.
You can use this to clean water for you by piping in salt or pwater and it will come out of the steam turbine hot but clean, leaving the impurity in the steam chamber.

thanks, the three of you gave great ideas and guideness.

@yoakenashi I used ice maker rarely before tbh and I like the idea of using it to cool farms and let everything else burn. I guess I put it all in isulation and make templates from ice? this is the way?

@Promethien thanks for the relaxing words I just had so many deaths by heat so when I dont see any ice boimes I already anticipate death...

Im happy to hear oxyferns could be useful. I always liked how they dont really create heat and use less water then electrolyzers, but always was afraid that i couldnt fullfill the co2 requirment 100% of the time and thous be inefficient.. I even thought of making a room and pumping in co2 and using some automation/logic gates to control fertilization.

@KILLABUDZI already have pip farm with 7 wild trees. I have so much wood I thought about running an early petroleum generator, only to find out that 2 distillers would be 480W... creating a net power of 520W but much... much more heat and CO2 then a coal generator. I dont think power from ethanol works well.

Hatches I already started (i have one hatchling from printing pod). but it might take quite time till I get smooth... does it just depending on luck? like I need 2% into 2%? or can I raise it somehow?

Deckos I like but ill probably wait because i want to put them in water locked ranch

@Gurgel I really tried to get gysters and vents and searched the moment I could (after seting up food and toilet). All I found is 1 (hot) steam vent, 1 cool steam vent, 1 copper volcano, 2 salt gysters and 1 polluted water gyster at the end of the map. any ideas? ironicly the pwater and cool steam are the farthest from me.

btw is the map smaller in this astroid? and I have an oil biome next to space. Is it bug?

  @suxkar yea... about water. I have very little of it. i found like maybe 10 kg of it (10 tiles). pumped some into a loop for bathroom. and used some for research and meallice. All the other water is not very close. I would use cool vent for research and meal lice but its kinda far. its 1 biome away from space and I didnt breach it yet only saw it. 1 salt water gyster is right next to the cooper volcano (half burried), and the other salt gyster is also not close (its the farthest down I got till now). the hot steam is not far actually but its still burried and I dont want it to release heat yet. The Pwater gyster is on the right edge of the map, also burried. there are pockets of pwater (in swamps) and pockets of salt water but really not pockets of water at all.

[KILLABUDZ]

21 minutes ago, meepmoop said:

Hatches I already started (i have one hatchling from printing pod). but it might take quite time till I get smooth... does it just depending on luck? like I need 2% into 2%? or can I raise it somehow?

I think there is a guaranteed buried hatch in every suitable biome. Feeding hatches the correct mats increases chance of related morph, so feed metal ore to either stone or normal hatches, it tells you in the info page if you select a hatch then click the little book button at the top of the info box. There is a related achievement "Down the hatch".

[Gurgel]

36 minutes ago, meepmoop said:

 

@Gurgel I really tried to get gysters and vents and searched the moment I could (after seting up food and toilet). All I found is 1 (hot) steam vent, 1 cool steam vent, 1 copper volcano, 2 salt gysters and 1 polluted water gyster at the end of the map. any ideas? ironicly the pwater and cool steam are the farthest from me.

For cooling, the pwater is your friend as it comes out at 30C. Use directly or via aquatuner. 

39 minutes ago, meepmoop said:

btw is the map smaller in this astroid? and I have an oil biome next to space. Is it bug?

They should all be the same side. Oil next to space is probably "irregular oil" or "buried oil" world trait.

Anyway, I think you have a lot of things to try out now

[DarkMaster13]

Verdante has the irregular oil trait built into the map.  You'll always find oil biomes scattered all over which will always have one oil well in them.

No there is no ice biome and most of the normal cooling options are out.  You can still use rust biomes for a little cooling.  The point of the map is to offer new challenges by making your old builds and methods not work anymore.  Ideally you should try to figure out new solutions on your own.

One hint I can give you is to insulate your farms and you should be mostly good with hot oxygen supplies.  Dupes can survive very high temperatures no problem.  Its your crops that will stop growing if you cook the base.  Well, one other option in that regard is waterweed, it'll grow in up to 65 degree C conditions.

[Promethien]

Oxyferns consume co2 and produce oxygen at the exact same ratio that dupes breathe. So not having enough co2 is a literal impossibility. In fact because they are air neutral you need wood burners. Everybody looks at wood burners and at first glance they are awful. They produce large amounts of co2 and don't produce much power. They exist to get your air pressure up when expanding in the early game before you have more oxygen producers going. Don't rely on it as a power source but make one and turn it on for short periods occasionally to increase your air pressure.

Also something unique about Verdante. It has an ABSOLUTELY STAGGERING AMOUNT OF DIRT, NEEDS MORE EMPHASIS, THERE IS A LOT OF DIRT, OMG THE DIRT, ITS EVERYWHERE, STILL NOT EMPHASIZING ENOUGH THE INSANELY HIGH AMOUNT OF DIRT. However it has zero coal. It always has a single hatch though. Ranch that hatch, feed it dirt and get a stable of Sage Hatches ASAP. That stable will keep you in coal power comfortably forever. I am not kidding about the ABSOLUTELY INSANE AMOUNT OF DIRT available on Verdante. 

[DarkMaster13]

1 hour ago, Promethien said:

Oxyferns consume co2 and produce oxygen at the exact same ratio that dupes breathe. So not having enough co2 is a literal impossibility. In fact because they are air neutral you need wood burners. Everybody looks at wood burners and at first glance they are awful. They produce large amounts of co2 and don't produce much power. They exist to get your air pressure up when expanding in the early game before you have more oxygen producers going. Don't rely on it as a power source but make one and turn it on for short periods occasionally to increase your air pressure.

Also something unique about Verdante. It has an ABSOLUTELY STAGGERING AMOUNT OF DIRT, NEEDS MORE EMPHASIS, THERE IS A LOT OF DIRT, OMG THE DIRT, ITS EVERYWHERE, STILL NOT EMPHASIZING ENOUGH THE INSANELY HIGH AMOUNT OF DIRT. However it has zero coal. It always has a single hatch though. Ranch that hatch, feed it dirt and get a stable of Sage Hatches ASAP. That stable will keep you in coal power comfortably forever. I am not kidding about the ABSOLUTELY INSANE AMOUNT OF DIRT available on Verdante. 

There's coal, just not in the starting biome.  All maps have jungle/toxic biomes, which have scattered coal deposits in them.  You are correct about the dirt though.  Any forest start has stupidly large amounts of dirt and sage hatches are absolutely the way to go on them if you are going to ranch hatches.

[yoakenashi]

5 hours ago, meepmoop said:

@yoakenashi I used ice maker rarely before tbh and I like the idea of using it to cool farms and let everything else burn. I guess I put it all in isulation and make templates from ice? this is the way?

I was the same way; I never used the ice maker and typically relied on frozen biomes. There are 4 ways I've used ice:

1. Build ice blocks. It's a second tier research focus, so it is accessibly in early game. The downsides are its 2x2 size and that it requires 400kg of ice. Sometimes 400kg of ice takes a long time to melt; but that is more typical of ice from frozen biomes that may be below -20°C. And when it does melt, there is a lot of water to mop. There's also the issue of artistic dupes wanting to spend time actually sculpting the ice block.
2. Store the ice in a storage compactor ON TOP of your farm tiles (or next to your planter boxes). The trick here is to reduce the storage capacity from 20,000kg to 90kg (each use of the ice maker makes 30kg). The ice will melt quicker than 400kg. The storage compactor is smaller, only 1x2. But you still have issues with mopping water.
3. Store the ice in a storage compactor AND create a water channel under your farm tiles (or regular tiles holding planter boxes). See the spoiler below for a screen shot of my current base that uses this method. This means that when the water melts it flows under the tiles where the duplicants do not walk. Meaning, no soggy feet and higher morale, and no mopping. Just let the water flow down into your water reservoir to be reused.
4. Use the ice-E fan. The cold from the ice is quickly transferred to the environment and there is no flowing water to deal with. The resulting water is contained in a bottle at 5°C, meaning when used in a ice maker it will cool to -20°C much faster (than a water reservoir that is approximately 30°C). The biggest downside to this is that ice-E fans requires duplicant operation.

Spoiler

Forgive the mess and the hydrogen. I'm trying something a little different this game

 

[Lancar]

A nice little early game trick for cooling oxygen is to simply use debris.
I did that on Verdante once, using the rust deoxydizer. I walled it in with meshblocks on top, upon which i dumped dirt i dug up from the map. The large mass of the dirt balls is enough to siphon heat of the produced oxygen for a very long time. More than enough time to get a proper electrolyzer setup going.

[Gurgel]

16 hours ago, DarkMaster13 said:

The point of the map is to offer new challenges by making your old builds and methods not work anymore.  Ideally you should try to figure out new solutions on your own.

My take also. Just felt inspired to start a Verdante map by this thread.

16 hours ago, Promethien said:

It always has a single hatch though. 

Hmm. I think I fed that one to my dupes. Will probably have to wait until I get a replacement via printer.

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 12/10/2019 at 1:43 PM, meepmoop said:

... soooo im kinda stack at the early game. no industry to make cooling, and no cold places on the map where I can make temporary early industry.

any tips or answers to those questions would be great help

This temporary solution works for any map:

Build your industrial sector to the side, or above, your biome.  Spread your industrial machines out a bit and leave lots of natural tiles.  If your machines need a pumped liquid that is under the working temp of the machines, then use granite or radiant pipes through the working area.  In this way you can ignore the heat for a very long time.

 

[meepmoop]

5 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

This temporary solution works for any map:

Build your industrial sector to the side, or above, your biome.  Spread your industrial machines out a bit and leave lots of natural tiles.  If your machines need a pumped liquid that is under the working temp of the machines, then use granite or radiant pipes through the working area.  In this way you can ignore the heat for a very long time.

 

I also had a problem where I didnt have any energy resources.

No coal on the map. only using hatches and even that fuels me 1 coal generator.

no oil pockets (only wells. and even this in 80C+ areas)

I started using ethanol but quickly stopped since it made huge amounts of CO2.

I was stack on hamster wheels for so long time... no neutral gas anywhere.

Does puting a steam generator about hot steam vent can do anything? my other chance magma but I never tried it.

[KILLABUDZ]

1 hour ago, meepmoop said:

Does puting a steam generator about hot steam vent can do anything?

A steam vent yes, a cool steam vent no.

[KittenIsAGeek]

14 hours ago, meepmoop said:

Does puting a steam generator about hot steam vent can do anything? my other chance magma but I never tried it.

I have tried steam turbines over steam vents and ran into issues every time.  @KILLABUDZsummarizes it nicely, but there's a bit more too it.

• A cold steam vent isn't hot enough.
• A cold steam vent puts out a LOT of steam, enough to run a turbine continually even through dormancy -- but it isn't hot enough.
• A single aquatuner running continually will not produce enough heat to run the turbine, except in dormancy.

 

• A hot steam vent doesn't produce enough steam.
• While erupting, a hot steam vent will run the turbine, but you'll waste heat.
• Adding water can improve performance, but you have to use it sparingly because it will drop the temperature QUICKLY.

So, a cool steam vent isn't hot enough.  A steam vent IS hot enough, but doesn't produce enough steam.  Both can work for a turbine, but they both need some extra infrastructure to really work well.

[KILLABUDZ]

 

There are earlier version too that are just less efficient.

[psusi]

Do NOT build ice sculptures or temp shift plates for cooling.  As buildings, they only count 1/5th of their mass, so you are giving up 80% of the possible cooling.

On 12/11/2019 at 11:35 PM, meepmoop said:

I was stack on hamster wheels for so long time... no neutral gas anywhere.

My current terra map also has no natural gas vents and so I was stuck on hamster power for a long time too.  I finally started burning coal to run the metal refinery and then built a mini Rodriguez spom and that started providing some power.  After that I set up the co2 scrubber, ethanol distillery, and petrol gen and that was plenty of power.  Now I have a hydrogen vent tamer making power from the turbine and storing up an insane amount of hydrogen.

On 12/11/2019 at 11:35 PM, meepmoop said:

Does puting a steam generator about hot steam vent can do anything? my other chance magma but I never tried it.

See the thread on the uses of the split turbine for how to tame vents with turbines.

 

[KittenIsAGeek]

14 hours ago, psusi said:

Do NOT build ice sculptures or temp shift plates for cooling.  As buildings, they only count 1/5th of their mass, so you are giving up 80% of the possible cooling.

I disagree, slightly.  Definitely, you're only getting 1/5th the cooling between the ice's temperature and its melting point.  However, once it melts, that 1C water will quickly take up a lot of heat energy from the floor and any buildings it touches.  If you're needing to cool something quickly and you have ice and dupes available, it can be very effective to spam some ice temp shift plates.  At least until you can get a more robust system in place.