Geyser generation needs to be more procedural, less random.

[TheScaryOne]

Just made it to cycle 300 on my first post-launch colony. Found out that half of my geysers are PO2 vents. Four polluted and two hot. This is outrageous. There shouldn't be more than 3 of any one kind of same-material producing geyser, let alone more than three of any SPECIFIC geyser.

I know I can use a save editor to save myself all the time I've been working on this save, but that's bad gameplay.

[OxCD]

26 minutes ago, TheScaryOne said:

Just made it to cycle 300 on my first post-launch colony. Found out that half of my geysers are PO2 vents. Four polluted and two hot. This is outrageous. There shouldn't be more than 3 of any one kind of same-material producing geyser, let alone more than three of any SPECIFIC geyser.

I know I can use a save editor to save myself all the time I've been working on this save, but that's bad gameplay.

PO2 means O2 so you save water (from electrolysis)

PO2 means clay, so ceramic.

PO2 means puft, so slime, so : shrooms, polluted water (distiller), coal (sage hatch), dirt (cooked)

Hot PO2 means free electricity.

Well, I agree it's not that easy. But the fun depends on the playstyle and the challenge you want. Some could really like the challenge to create a sustainable base nearly only from PO2.

[Supraluminal]

22 minutes ago, OxCD said:

Well, I agree it's not that easy. But the fun depends on the playstyle and the challenge you want. Some could really like the challenge to create a sustainable base nearly only from PO2.

Might be good if players get a little more influence over that at world generation, though. I would usually guarantee myself a metal volcano if I could.

[TheScaryOne]

It's not that it's not that easy, it's that it sucks. I see all of these cool builds with slush geysers, or metal volcanos, or any of the esoteric geysers, but instead I have a full HALF of my geysers producing garbage. The two polluted vents I've scanned each produce less than 100g/s per activity cycle so that's what, two pufts or 1.8 dupes? Assuming that all six put out that much, all six will require a sizeable amount of infrastructure to manage (killing slimelung/cooling 500* O2) all for six dupes worth of O2, or just enough PO2 to run a full puft ranch.

[Chintam]

 

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, OxCD said:

PO2 means O2 so you save water (from electrolysis)

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that. PO2 geyser produces 100g/s of PO2 on average. Compared to 3kg/s of a water geyser. Having a water geyser is far better for supplying oxygen.

49 minutes ago, OxCD said:

PO2 means clay, so ceramic.

So a deodorizer converts PO2 to clay with a ratio of 1:1.43. This means that a 143g/s of clay is produced or 85.3kg per cycle. So every 5 cycles, you will be able to build 1 insulated gas pipe. 

 

51 minutes ago, OxCD said:

PO2 means puft, so slime, so : shrooms, polluted water (distiller), coal (sage hatch), dirt (cooked)

Puft consumes 50kg/cycle of PO2 so you'll be able to support 1 puft with a geyser. 

53 minutes ago, OxCD said:

Hot PO2 means free electricity.

The amount of heat available from the PO2 is 1.005*400*0.1 = 40.2 kW of heat which translate to about 39 kW of actual power using a steam turbine. 

 

So yeah PO2 geyser is basically useless but I will agree it's a fun/interesting challenge to use a PO2 geyser.

[OxCD]

It seems that people here are disagreeing a lot on what they grasp, but not on what they read.

17 hours ago, Chintam said:

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that. PO2 geyser produces 100g/s of PO2 on average. Compared to 3kg/s of a water geyser. Having a water geyser is far better for supplying oxygen.

Did I say that it was equal, or better ? I said it was saving water, which is true.

 

17 hours ago, Chintam said:

So every 5 cycles, you will be able to build 1 insulated gas pipe.

I only said it brings ceramic, which is also true.

 

17 hours ago, Chintam said:

Puft consumes 50kg/cycle of PO2 so you'll be able to support 1 puft with a geyser. 

The amount of heat available from the PO2 is 1.005*400*0.1 = 40.2 kW of heat which translate to about 39 kW of actual power using a steam turbine.

See above, and see above again.

 

17 hours ago, Chintam said:

So yeah PO2 geyser is basically useless but I will agree it's a fun/interesting challenge to use a PO2 geyser.

Ironically, I agree with the fact that you agree with me. But, oh wait, is it agreeing with what I wrote ?

"But the fun depends on the playstyle and the challenge you want." This map is challenging, and needs sacrifices over a long game.

 

Then to the OP @TheScaryOne, what apparently you need is something to give you some geysers as a minimum, because it seems you don't want those kind of challenging map (geyser resctriction), as it does not bring fun to you.

Then Cairath has made a tool, to select those kind of settings : https://toolsnotincluded.net/map-tools/map-browser

You should check it out then, if you're not ready to take the risk of having a handicap that big.

Since this tool is existing, I personnaly see no issue with the map gen. Even some are going to... disagree.

 

EDIT : and if you don't want to spoil you other geyser types than the one(s) you're ordered (and it's a good idea BTW) then you should ask @Cairath if he cans make a check box on his website before the search, which can allow you to do not see other info that the one(s) you're demanding.

[Supraluminal]

I like games that support mods, but at the same time I think it's really important not to give developers a pass on important features just because a mod is available to do it. New players in particular are not going to have any idea what mods are available or even what problems they might want to solve with mods.

I'd say some general geyser configuration options would be a welcome addition to the base game. There's already a "Game Settings" menu in the world gen screen, that'd be an easy place to stick something like this.

[OxCD]

@Supraluminal if your reference to a "mod" is linked to my last post (considering no one mentionned it yet before on this topic), please note that the Tools Not Included I'm referring to isn't a mod, but a website.

If it's not relative, please disregard this post.

[Supraluminal]

1 hour ago, OxCD said:

@Supraluminal if your reference to a "mod" is linked to my last post (considering no one mentionned it yet before on this topic), please note that the Tools Not Included I'm referring to isn't a mod, but a website.

If it's not relative, please disregard this post.

Ah, sorry, I didn't follow the link. I see how it works now. But it doesn't really change my point, this is something that could be folded into the game so that it's easily visible and available to all players (and so it won't disappear in a year or two if the person running the site gets bored).

[KittenIsAGeek]

6 hours ago, TheScaryOne said:

Just made it to cycle 300 on my first post-launch colony. Found out that half of my geysers are PO2 vents. Four polluted and two hot. This is outrageous. There shouldn't be more than 3 of any one kind of same-material producing geyser, let alone more than three of any SPECIFIC geyser.

I know I can use a save editor to save myself all the time I've been working on this save, but that's bad gameplay.

If you want to chose your geysers and features, then use the third party tool "ToolsNotIncluded."  https://toolsnotincluded.net/map-tools/map-browser

You can chose very specifically which geysers your map has, which features (volcanoes, geodes, etc) your map has, and even look at a preview overview of the map.

[TheScaryOne]

Doesn't Tools Not Included only work because people upload their seed scans via a mod? What about when Klei patches stuff that changes worldgen? It's not like it's actually unpacking every seed, scanning it, and listing the results.

[KittenIsAGeek]

So because it doesn't work 100% of the time means you shouldn't bother using it at all?  I simply gave you a method of solving the problem you posted about: Inability to pick the geysers you want.  If you think its too unreliable, fine.  Make a suggestion on the suggestion forum for the game to change.

Yes, Tools Not Included relies on user feedback.  Generally within a day or two of a map-generating change to the game, there are a useful number of maps already available.  Currently the search for "Oceana, with Geoactive, Metal Rich, and Geodes, without Large, Medium, or Small boulders, and at least 2 Cool Slush Geysers" gives me 44 results.   Does it have EVERY available map? No.  Does it usually have useful maps? Yes.

I apologize if it sounds like I'm criticizing you.  I'm not.  I'm simply pointing out that I gave a valid answer to your question.  If you want to offer a suggestion to change the actual design of the game, then please, by all means do... on the suggestion forum.  Since you posted here, I assumed that you wanted to know if there was a way to pick your geysers without using a save game editor.  Which there is.

[Qubit]

My .02:

TNI (and Cairath) are awesome.  But the ability to guarantee that specific resource features will appear on your maps ought to be a priority candidate for inclusion in the base game. TNI is an elaborate, developer/community resource intensive, workaround to out-of-the-box ONI’s failing to provide any way to mitigate an RNG aspect of gameplay that often forces the player to decide between resignedly putting further effort into a map that disappoints them versus resignedly tossing away dozens of hours to start over on a new map that they hope will disappoint them less.

Well, failing to provide any way that doesn't involve revealing the map via debug mode first...thus forcing one to decide between no surprise and total surprise.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Its my personal opinion that ONI doesn't need to change the pseudo-random world generation they have designed.  They not only support third-party tools, but have given us examples on how to create our own world generation algorithms.  This gives us a phenomenal amount of flexibility while allowing the designers to continue with their vision. 

That being said.. I also have the opinion that if you think an aspect of the game should change, you should speak up about it.  Explain your change, why you think it is necessary, and what benefits it may have.  However, there is a separate forum for suggesting changes.  If you post about a problem in the general forum, I'm going to assume that you want a current method of resolving your problem.  If you post about a problem on the suggestion forum, I'll assume that you're suggesting the problem needs to be changed.  If you post about a problem on the bug forum, I'll assume that you're saying the problem needs to be fixed.

 

11 hours ago, Qubit said:

Well, failing to provide any way that doesn't involve revealing the map via debug mode first...thus forcing one to decide between no surprise and total surprise.

I disagree with this statement.  Certainly if you only use the straight game without any other mods or outside sources, these are your options.  However, there are mods that let you get much more picky about your dupes.  There are mods that change world generation (such as making sure ALL starting worlds have a sandstone biome).  There are tools, like TNI, that allow you to chose overall general features.  You aren't forced between "I know nothing" and "I know everything."  You, as a player, can decide what changes you want to make to the game, what information you want to learn about the game before you start, and how easy or difficult you want to make your game play.  Klei has done a wonderful job in giving us, the players, the ability to expand beyond their vision.

I feel like I've had this argument before.. 

[TheScaryOne]

In a game like Factorio, you can take your starting resources, put everything in a car, and drive miles and miles away until you find an area with the water/copper/iron/coal/stone you need. In these maps we're stuck with what was put in Worldgen on day 1, and we might not find out until cycle 300. And then there's nothing to do about it.

I suggested this back in beta, but we should be able to vacate our dupes from Base and start over on a new map. Keep my research, keep my dupes and skills, leave everything else. The equivalent of driving miles away in Factorio to find a better start.

Or give us space-tech that lets us rejigger the geysers to something else. It doesn't have to make sense, but it'd make me want to keep playing this cursed PO2 geyser map knowing I could change them into something else.

Tools Not Included is fine, but it's not really letting you pick a seed. It's merely a front end for the old seed exchange threads that used to be all over the forum.

[KittenIsAGeek]

30 minutes ago, TheScaryOne said:

In a game like Factorio, you can take your starting resources, put everything in a car, and drive miles and miles away until you find an area with the water/copper/iron/coal/stone you need. In these maps we're stuck with what was put in Worldgen on day 1, and we might not find out until cycle 300. And then there's nothing to do about it.

I've never played Factorio, so I can't make any comparisons.  However, I suspect that our worldgens in ONI are a lot smaller than in Factorio due to the immense number of calculations that end up being run on every grid of the ONI map.  This makes moving to another location difficult, since there isn't that far to move...

35 minutes ago, TheScaryOne said:

I suggested this back in beta, but we should be able to vacate our dupes from Base and start over on a new map. Keep my research, keep my dupes and skills, leave everything else.

However, there IS a mod called "Advanced Start" that lets you do exactly this.  You could use this mod in conjunction with Tools Not Included to effectively move to another map.  Maybe not quite as smoothly as Factorio, but its an idea.

35 minutes ago, TheScaryOne said:

Or give us space-tech that lets us rejigger the geysers to something else. It doesn't have to make sense, but it'd make me want to keep playing this cursed PO2 geyser map knowing I could change them into something else.

This is an interesting idea.  Not sure how it would work.  Though, it would be amusing to go kick Old Faithful and suddenly have gold pouring out the top instead of steam...

36 minutes ago, TheScaryOne said:

Tools Not Included is fine, but it's not really letting you pick a seed. It's merely a front end for the old seed exchange threads that used to be all over the forum.

Its far more than this.  There's a mod that repeatedly loads a random seed, gets the details, then submits it to TNI.  This very quickly builds up a rather robust database of seeds that is independent of the old "Hey, I liked this seed, you might like it too!" mechanic.  Is every seed there? No, not yet.  Realistically speaking, though, ONI would have to generate a seed before it could tell you if it had the features you were searching for.  This could take a VERY long time, depending on how tightly you controlled your likes/dislikes.  Can you imagine how long it would take to generate, say, 10000 maps, until it found one that matched "3 cool slush, 2 natural gas, zero polluted oxygen" requirements?  It would be far easier to search a database of previously generated maps... which, um.. sounds like TNI.  Huh.  

I mean, I'm not pushing TNI.. I'm just pointing out that it solves many of the issues you posted about.  You can pick which features you want or don't want.  You can preview roughly where they are placed if you want.  If you still want "random, but with features I want" then search for what you want, and pick one of the choices at random without bothering to check anything else.  Or ask the developer to add a tab that only lists the seeds that match your search without any of the extra details.

[OxCD]

3 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

ask the developer to add a tab that only lists the seeds that match your search without any of the extra details.

I overtook you few posts earlier

It's a cool idea, really. I've pinged Cairath above already, so I hope he will come to us about it

[dezuman]

15 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Its far more than this.  There's a mod that repeatedly loads a random seed, gets the details, then submits it to TNI.  This very quickly builds up a rather robust database of seeds that is independent of the old "Hey, I liked this seed, you might like it too!" mechanic.  Is every seed there? No, not yet.  Realistically speaking, though, ONI would have to generate a seed before it could tell you if it had the features you were searching for.  This could take a VERY long time, depending on how tightly you controlled your likes/dislikes.  Can you imagine how long it would take to generate, say, 10000 maps, until it found one that matched "3 cool slush, 2 natural gas, zero polluted oxygen" requirements?  It would be far easier to search a database of previously generated maps... which, um.. sounds like TNI.  Huh. 

Since ONI generates maps completely from seeds, it *should* be entirely possible to figure out the what, where and how many of geysers from a quick analysis of the seed in question, no complete world generation needed. You'd probably need the game source files to make the analysis function though.

[KittenIsAGeek]

6 hours ago, dezuman said:

Since ONI generates maps completely from seeds, it *should* be entirely possible to figure out the what, where and how many of geysers from a quick analysis of the seed in question, no complete world generation needed. You'd probably need the game source files to make the analysis function though.

The seed simply starts the random number generation.  Order matters, therefore all the random things before each geyser need to be determined before the geyser itself can.  So you would have to actually generate the map in order to determine the geysers.  You could simply throw out all the unnecessary information, but time would still be required to run through all the randomly generated components.

[Gurgel]

On 11/7/2019 at 7:21 PM, KittenIsAGeek said:

The seed simply starts the random number generation.  Order matters, therefore all the random things before each geyser need to be determined before the geyser itself can.  So you would have to actually generate the map in order to determine the geysers.  You could simply throw out all the unnecessary information, but time would still be required to run through all the randomly generated components.

Since a PRNG is usually pretty fast, throwing things away until the geysers are done could speed things up significantly. However, it is quite possible that the count of random numbers you need to get to the geysers is in part determined by the random values obtained before, so some logic and storage may still be needed. Other than that, except for some very specific (and problematic) PRNG designs (for example where you always use the same sequence, but encrypt it with a different key in ECB mode or where you simply have a short cycle time until the output repeats), you do have to run through all the numbers, no shortcuts.

Of course, if Klei wants to make this a selection criteria or optimize it, they could simply do the geysers first in the sequence.

[Tonyroid]

I kinda prefer it to be highly random. The unexpected mix is fun. But I can see how it's frustrating if you are committed to a base that you put a lot of time into and you don't happen to get any variety.

[Mantak]

If you dont like, change it.