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Kynoox_    414

For Glowcap and Mushlights I think the light source inside them should last a bit longer than normal

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ADM    940
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Kynoox_ said:

For Glowcap and Mushlights I think the light source inside them should last a bit longer than normal

amiajoketoyou.png.465939ad8798d2917576b165dc3f274b.png

(Joke aside, lightbulbs and other stuff inside last like in an icebox, so we're already pretty helped)

Edited by ADM
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Pedrito    304
5 minutes ago, Kynoox_ said:

For Glowcap and Mushlights I think the light source inside them should last a bit longer than normal

doesn't the glowcap reduce the spoileage time by 50%?, just like an icebox

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Kynoox_    414
3 minutes ago, Pedrito said:

doesn't the glowcap reduce the spoileage time by 50%?, just like an icebox

good to know then

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Electroely    2,248
8 minutes ago, Kynoox_ said:

For Glowcap and Mushlights I think the light source inside them should last a bit longer than normal

 

4 minutes ago, ADM said:

amiajoketoyou.png.465939ad8798d2917576b165dc3f274b.png

 

3 minutes ago, Pedrito said:

doesn't the glowcap reduce the spoileage time by 50%?, just like an icebox

I'd appreciate it if the mushlight/glowcap talk were to happen in another thread, as I'd like to see what others think of / have to add to my original post. 

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Pedrito    304
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Electroely said:

I'd appreciate it if the mushlight/glowcap talk were to happen in another thread, as I'd like to see what others think of / have to add to my original post. 

 

ok then. i agree as with your opinion, as a veteran player i keep playing this game to teach newbies and as a sandbox game

Edited by Pedrito
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Kynoox_    414

I Think darkness already isn't issue at all, we currently have tons of light source: Glowcaps, Winona's Spotlight, Moon Dial, Scaled Furnace etc. The biggest thing is: Darkness is still a big problem for new players in fact they don't know good light sources, because if you reach Late Game you can just set / wait for the Winter's Feast event and farm festive lights in oasis to put in Glowcaps and have infinite light source.

Don't Starve can't be more hard to experienced players due to their large knowledge, if something new appear I'm sure they will find a easy way to deal with it and that new "Hard" thing will become more easier than it should be. It always like this. every mob, mechanic etc someone find a easy way to counter, every time.

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Bird Up    417

I made a post recently and the overwhelming response was that the game was actually too hard. I had to facepalm after reading all through the forums how easy the game was. I don't know if forums discussions are aimed at making improvements to the game, or just criticizing any and all constructive suggestions put forth.

For experienced players, the game is hard if you make it hard. You have to give yourself goals and deadlines to reach certain plateaus. I find it ironic when long time players call the game easy, but at the same time they use like 20+ client mods making it objectively easier.

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Boomsl0l    37

Dunno I feel like they can do some simple things to make the game a bit harder. An example would be to make Charlie one-hit-kill you regardless of HP and armor, that's an example of something that both newbies and veterans alike have to be mindful of, and helps prevent the feeling that once you survive the year you're invincible. I've played with a mod that does this and every time it turns to night I'm practically pooing bricks just incase I haven't been managing my resources good enough.

And I'm sorry (this isn't directed at anyone in particular, but it's a mindset that I've seen floating around survival games in general, and especially DS), but I really don't think Klei should be balancing the game around new players. They need to think of ways that punishes both types of players and gives them the sense that theres always a danger present. If you lack knowledge or skill then you deserve to die, it's that simple. Get better and learn more, or fall behind and perish; it's the very essence of a survival game and survival of the fittest.

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the_revenant    32

Personally, to me it's not about being easy or hard. I'd just like to see food gathering somehow still be a constant task that the player has to work on, no matter how long they've survived.

But you are absolutely right when you say the difficulty in this game is basically based on knowledge since virtually every mechanic is susceptible to exploits or workarounds. You are also probably right when you say the game can't be made any more difficultt for experienced players, at least not in the long term.

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Boomsl0l    37
Just now, the_revenant said:

Personally, to me it's not about being easy or hard. I'd just like to see food gathering somehow still be a constant task that the player has to work on, no matter how long they've survived.

But you are absolutely right when you say the difficulty in this game is basically based on knowledge since virtually every mechanic is susceptible to exploits or workarounds. You are also probably right when you say the game can't be made any more difficultt for experienced players, at least not in the long term.

Honestly I'm not a fan of RNG 99.9% of the time, but in this instance it could be a pretty idea good to make food farms less reliable by giving it a chance to be corrupt and gradually increasing the chance it will be corrupt as the world gets older. It fits in with the lore of the game when you think about it as well... The forces of darkness gets stronger and stronger until eventually you're overwhelmed either by manifestations itself or a depleting food source... That sense of inevitability is actually kind of appealing to me.

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the_revenant    32
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
5
1 hour ago, Electroely said:

And even if he does, he can only carry up to 20 souls. This means that no matter how much time you spend farming bees for souls, even if you heal yourself completely and fill up your hunger to max before being done with, it won't be long before you'll have to come back for more. And to make things worse, every single food item in the game has its effects halved for him. With an effective double hunger drain speed, living off regular food alone can be kind of difficult. You have to spend a lot of time getting food for it to last a little bit. He basically doesn't get access to bunnyman farms due to being a monster. It's often better to just find more stuff to kill for souls. Eating souls drains sanity, and drained sanity means time spent either killing shadow creatures or restoring said sanity. Long story short, Wortox requires significantly more stat management than other characters without access to some great tools and rewards the player cheap healing and Lazy Explorer uses.

I think these two characters are the best examples of how simple downsides can have a massive impact on game game. It would be really cool to have more characters like this, and while it does sound like they're doing that with Warly's rework (not being able to eat non-crockpot food and getting less food from repeated dishes both sound like pretty big downsides) I haven't actually played him to see if it's the same kind of risk & reward.

I agree with you. Wortox and Wormwood are easily one of the best characters in the game currently.

I just want to point out that technically Wortox can carry more than 20 souls at a time. You probably know this but you forgot to mention it. If you play a multiplayer world, one single flower planted in the center of your base will spawn a very big amount of butterflies. Enough for you to catch 20 of them each day. This is useful for boss fights. You use all your 20 souls, then kill a stack of butterfly and you have 20 souls again. And healing a stack of butterflies is kinda easy too. Heck, you can even heal a stack of butterfly with... one butterfly wings. Kappa.

-------

EDIT:   truly wanna know why my quotes keep looking like that.

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Electroely    2,248
1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Most people of course struggle with a game when they've just started out. Unfortunately , designing a game's difficulty around not understanding game mechanics for its difficulty is a terrible approach for difficulty for an experience that's meant to be replayable, when something like a wiki and game subreddits are so easily accessible in 2019.I disagree that bunnymen "not being the logical best source of food at first glance" is an appropiate defense of a choice being so much better than the other ones.

The game relying on its lack of knowledge means that you can merely pop into the game's wiki or have a more experienced player tell you what you need to do in basically every situation. A sandbox game should be designed so that there are multiple things you can do, but also so that you have a REASON to do things differently.

DST has these "false choices"  where you have many ways to accomplish the same goal, but a lot of them are time-consuming or very tedious to pull off, compared to one of them which is usually an overlooked exploit or unbalanced item/mechanic.

The difficulty in this game is very much just memorizing the *correct* way to go about essentially everything, then following it to the letter, as the game is very stagnant and rarely changes up how things work. Same biomes, same enemies, no situation where you'd consider a "lesser" choice, unless you planned to cripple yourself.

I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't necessarily PRAISING the way the game does difficulty, I was just explaining how I believe it works. I didn't mean to say that bunnymen farms not making sense is an excuse for them to be this good (I should have been more clear in my post about a lot of things), just that them not making sense as a food source shouldn't be a reason to nerf them with the direction the game seems to be taking. I do agree with you on everything said here.

 

1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

I disagree. I believe the game could still be reasonably engaging for experienced players without tedious mechanics, although it seems that Klei is well-versed in tedium. Remember disease?

I feel that you're inflating the difficulty of getting a walking cane. Yes, you need to wait 20 days to get it, but....that's not a challenge. You just  need to live 20 days(trivial), and know where MacTusk will spawn(not difficult) and then kill it(harder than the average enemy, but still easy. The challenges you've mentioned rely entirely on a deadline that is trivial to meet , not much else. It's not a challenge, it's the estimated delivery time of the smash amiibo you've ordered in the mail.

One part I meant to include in my original post (but I forgot to) was the main reason I think the game can't be difficult for more players. I could be wrong about this, but I believe that with the way the game controls, ESPECIALLY in DST where there's latency involved, actions requiring precise movement or timing don't really work well. 

I didn't mean to say obtaining the walking cane was difficult. I was trying to explain how it's an item newer players will likely not get. Having to kill a creature that comes with a small army and a ranged attack sounds intimidating. I personally just go after Mactusk himself as soon as I spot him as to not take any damage in the entire fight. I don't actually think it's hard, I just think it works in influencing which players actually get one.

1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Contrary to popular belief, sandbox games other than Don't Starve Together DO exist. And they manage to be difficult , engaging, AND better than DST at being a sandbox. Minecraft and Terraria immediately come to mind, and you could argue they contributed to inspire this game, one way or the other.

(I'm really sorry I really should have been more clear about these things in my original post)
I didn't mean to say that DST can't be difficult BECAUSE it's a sandbox game. I meant that it can't be difficult for experienced players (because of reasons stated earlier) and that it plays like a sandbox game later on with the way it's designed. A very limited one, definitely, but a sandbox nonetheless. You can set your own goals and you're (usually) given a variety of ways to achieve them. Items like slurtle slime come to my mind when I think of DST as a sandbox game. It's rarely ever used by anyone that's simply trying to survive or thrive, but I think it has potential (it's an explosive you can basically farm) and I try to find ways it can be useful.

 

1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

That DST's lategame experience is not difficult is not an intentional design choice: it is a design failure that they've run into. It's not difficult OR good as a sandbox. Thinking about the sanity farm you mentioned...can you think of a reason you'd go out of your way to make it besides "it's kinda cool?". Sanity management is both trivial(shadow creatures aren't that dangerous) and easy(green caps), so you have no reason to make this contraption. It's a contraption that is just plain overkill.

I personally am not sure if it's intentional or not, but the point I was trying to make was that the majority of endgame additions the game has received have, for the most part, reduced the time you'd spend "surviving" by a significant amount, which I think is evidence that the developers are taking the direction I mentioned: survival game for new players, sandbox game for experienced ones.

Also, while I do think that there are contraptions that are overkill, I just want to mention that I don't think the sanity station is one of them. While yes, most players would consider sanity a joke, Shadow Creatures are intrusive and annoying and working towards sanity restoration items (such as green caps) will take some time, even if it isn't much. 

1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Sorry, but it just seems like a justification to keep DST in it's current state to say that "no game can be difficult for experienced players". Don't Starve Together relies ENTIRELY on memory for it's difficulty, so the developers have a reason for not making a tutorial for new players...which is ironic, since you and multiple others in this thread are in favor of new players being supported, which Klei hasn't really taken a step towards. No in-depth tutorial explaining mechanics, all left to intuition and trial and error. Doesn't sound like a new player friendly environment to me. Can you support a design philosophy that the core development team itself seems to oppose you in?

Minecraft and Terraria contraptions push player creativity for some truly amazing solutions to problems. DST is the history exam I sat down an hour to study for that one time.

I never meant to say that no game can be difficult for experienced players. It's just that DST, with the way it's designed and the way endgame content was / is being made, doesn't really seem like it was meant to be difficult for experienced players. I also didn't mean to say that the game should be more supportive of new players. I just think that new players aren't supposed to have access to the late game content because of how it could make the game too easy for them. The end game content that the devs have added to the game in A New Reign reward the player for killing a boss with something that makes the game easier. A lot of players don't seem to consider these bosses difficult as you can build tons of rabbit hutches or catapults or whatever to kill the boss, but I think it's something that that's not something an inexperienced player would try to do.

Both Minecraft and Terraria offer much more complex tools for that kind of stuff. DST just kind of has you build nice stuff that looks pretty with its amazing art style.

1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

The solution here would be to make early game darkness actually difficult, not giving players access to a torch that you can make within 30 seconds of starting a new playthrough that you can use for about 20 minutes before you even need a new one, for FAR longer if you burn trees and just wait out the night. Back to what I said earlier, glowcaps are an in-game item that solve a problem that wasn't really a problem to begin with.

It goes back to what I said about endgame content - I think it's designed for a sandbox setting. Glowcaps are a convenience / decor structure more than anything.

1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

I'm fully expecting people to reply with "mod the game if it's too easy for you bucko". So here's my response:

-I'm criticizing the vanilla core experience of the game, which most new players are going to be part of, as they seem to be a focus of this thread. Most new players won't use mods.

-I actually found DST fun to play when I decided to mess around with server commands and file code, but once again, this is not part of the core experience. A car with a busted engine but well-tuned tires is a bad car overall, but there's something good about it.

I personally think mods are an amazing thing. I'm REALLY glad the game is so moddable. Mods can let you play the game however you want, as long as someone with the necessary knowledge makes the changes/additions instead of the devs. I do wish mods were accepted by the community. I can understand reasons why players would want these kinds of changes to be put into the base game (you can't use server mods on any server you join, mods don't get the kind of constant support official content does, the experience isn't as widespread if it's specifically tailored to your own via mods, etc) but I really do think that mods are a great thing that shouldn't be put out of consideration. 

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Ermac__    33

I think just tune the game's end game content. Make some better, well-designed bosses and enemies, and add scaling challenges further in the world you go. New players rarely get past winter and once they start getting to a year they should be well invested in the game enough to adapt.

 

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Voidbarker    78
1 hour ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

-sneep snoop-

That's why I for one am a proponent of the 2-steps increment of difficulty, akin Terraria's Wall-of-Flesh mechanic: have it more or less how is now for newbies and relaxed-playstyle players, but after a world-changing event, let's say old FW take-down or what new boss-fight would Moon Island offer, you get an up-in-difficulty in all Constant. Mob's AI goes up and their attacks get more complex, maybe even with some RNG patterns too spice up (like Pigs being able to cooperate and having various types of attacks alternating with an RNG component), mobs get more HP, higher attack-dmg, more type of wave-mobs attacking periodically but in an RNG-ish manner, harder variants of attack-mobs appear (Varg-waves, Alpha Hounds, Haul Hounds), calamities to the world like some drought years, some blizzard years (and the special seasonal boss themed for respective calamity year gets amped-up - let's say in a drought year DF goes wandering again through the landscape, scourging everything in path, has new types of attacks and-so-on), true RNG seasons (with varying lengths and recurrent bursts - think Spring coming and then, 2-3-4-etc days later, another chill wintery weather remission suddenly occurs, RNG-based again), etc etc etc. This from my view-point would be superb, making the world truly feel alive, changing, evolving with the players. But also am realistic: Through the Ages I believe proposed this concept that am sure is very demanding at the volume and complexity of work/design level going in it, and that in turn would require hard cash, more so than the current free-yet-dependent-on-skins-sales one can amount to. For now let's see what Return of Them will bring... and have hope it won't be the last major update in the line.

I actually think utilizing the Ancient Gateway for this would be a good idea, and maybe something with the moon as well? I'd love a season randomizing thing, too, there's a mod that does that / may have done that and it doesn't work in the current version(s).

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