Overloading with small power transformer

[Nickerooni]

I thought I understood the power system in the game. But, right here I have a 2 kW wire connected to a single small power transformer. The other side of this wire isn't interesting either - a battery and input from yet another small power transformer.

In the attached screenshot, for some reason, the small power transformer is taking in 4.66 kW! This has even caused my wires to overload. The output side of the power transformer has a lot of batteries, but otherwise less than 2 kW of power consumers as well.

Any clues? I've done this sort of setup tons of times, but I've never chained small power transformers like this. Honestly, the chained transformers is only so that I can adjust the smart battery nearer to my hydrogen power setup.

 

[Eternal Firesea]

The battery is the likely culprit.  They seem to to be able to draw infinite power while charging.  I've had them fry a few of my own circuits.

[TLW]

Yep, transformers don't really work as stated.

You would think that a transformer labelled `1kW` would prevent overloading on a wire with a max rating of `1kW`, but nope.

[abud]

@mathmanican just explain about this few days ago

 

For original question: Battery can draw much power while charging. It is taking power from stored power inside transformer in addition to 1000 that provided by transformer.

 

tips: Make new save with sandbox to do some testing. It will be much easier to understand than in normal playthrough. Recreate your problem there and have fun tinkering with it. After that, you can discuss your experiment with enthusiasm.

 

[mathmanican]

Thanks @abud for the link above. This one appears to be a different story entirely. 

3 hours ago, Nickerooni said:

Any clues?

Here's my best guess (discovered by testing for the last little while). 

• A transformer can output 5 times the actual power stated. My guess is that it outputs 1K 5 times, with 4 of the outputs only allowed to power batteries. More tests needed
• There must be transformers upstream (the high end) that provide enough juice for this to happen. If you connect the transformer directly to a generator, this won't happen. If you draw power from batteries, this won't happen. The power draw has to come from transformers into the overpowered transformer
• The extra power appears to only be available for powering batteries (not transformers or any other consumer, just batteries). 
• With a 1kw transformer, you can see the high side reach up to 5kw. With 2 1kw transformers, you can see it reach up to 10kw. 
• With a single 4kw transformer, if you have 5 4kw transformers behind it, you can reach the full 20kw. Kinda crazy.
  

There's more to learn here.

@Nickerooni, is the high side of your transformer connected to a transformer(s) somewhere? If so, that easily explains up to a 5kw load, which is what you are showing here. 

 

Even better, let's let @martosss explain it.

 

And I cross referenced the bug report from long ago back to this page. 

 

Dang. We missed the 1 year anniversary of that but report by 1 day. 

[abud]

Probably it is best if @Nickerooni can recreate situation in sandbox, so we can see a whole picture of the problem.

I cannot reproduce yours with chaining small transformers @mathmanican

Edit: My bad, I can

[mathmanican]

12 minutes ago, abud said:

I cannot reproduce yours with chaining small transformers @mathmanican

Try connecting your main power source to two 1kw transformers, and then have them connect to a single 1kw transformer.

You can add more transformers on the heaviwatt line (up to 5) and keep seeing a 5kw draw from the single transformer.

[Yunru]

3 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Dang. We missed the 1 year anniversary of that but report by 1 day

Not with the right time zone

[Nickerooni]

Based on the discussion here, it seems like I can just make sure I have a chain of transformers with no battery in between and that will prevent too much power going through. I'm trying that out. The issue is pretty rare. Breaking once every 20 cycles or so. I'm not going to trouble myself to reproduce it in sandbox

The setup I had is

[Battery * 20 + 1500 W draw + power input] (2 kW wire) <- 1000W transformer + [1 battery] (2 kW wire) <- 1000 W transformer + [30 batteries + transformers providing power] (20 kW wire)

The bold wire is the one that broke. It makes sense based on the comments. If the transformer is providing power to batteries and buildings, it can overdraw. I have other ones that aren't doing this, but maybe it's just a matter of time.

I'll fix it by doing (change in bold):

[Battery * 20 + 1500 W draw + power input] (2 kW wire) <- 1000W transformer (2 kW wire) <- 1000W transformer + [1 battery] (2 kW wire) <- 1000 W transformer + [30 batteries + transformers providing power] (20 kW wire)

[mathmanican]

10 minutes ago, Nickerooni said:

I'm trying that out.

Let us know. Sounds promising. If it blows again, then I'll happily build something to help test it out. 

[Nickerooni]

That one in the middle got overloaded.

Going for a new try:

[Battery * 20 + 1500 W draw + power input] (2 kW wire) <- 1000W transformer (20 kW wire) <- 1000W transformer + [1 battery] (2 kW wire) <- 1000 W transformer + [30 batteries + transformers providing power] (20 kW wire)

[SamLogan]

7 hours ago, Nickerooni said:

Any clues?

Yes, uses the right wire :

As indicated here :

Secondly, if you consumme more than 1000 J on the small wire, yes you will overload, because you can send 20 Kwatts on it, it will never overload since you don't ask more than the cable capacity.

 

6 hours ago, TLW said:

Yep, transformers don't really work as stated.

You would think that a transformer labelled `1kW` would prevent overloading on a wire with a max rating of `1kW`, but nope.

In fact, it works like it should but new players don't understand how overload works.

Heres some examples :

I send 600 Watts but ask 1200 Watts on a 1000 Watts, it will overload because I ASK 1200 Watts that over the cable capacity.

The right use :

[Nickerooni]

Thanks @SamLogan, but your advice is for the wrong level of dupe overlord. This was a more advanced issue I was dealing with - issues that cause small transformers to transfer more than 1 kW in short bursts. I just didn't have time to ask it clearly enough. But, I still got great advice on this thread.

[abud]

17 minutes ago, Nickerooni said:

Going for a new try

That last one using high-watt wire, middle should be safe. But about transformer that up there... might burn this wire when all battery in bottom charging (max 5k) draws from top.

 

[abud]

1 hour ago, Nickerooni said:

[Battery * 20 + 1500 W draw + power input] (2 kW wire) <- 1000W transformer (20 kW wire) <- 1000W transformer + [1 battery] (2 kW wire) <- 1000 W transformer + [30 batteries + transformers providing power] (20 kW wire)

Is this correct reproduction of your last try?

1. Your main power, consists of 30 batteries and ends with 1k transformer
2. The chain that you were working on
3. 20 batteries, some generator, plus some consumers (1500w) in closed area

Between 1-2 is long range

It should safe as long transformer in 1 is only that 1k one. It will be 5k for a second when starting charging 3, but fast enough to back to 1k. And I don't think you need chain 2.

 

What is your goal? If your goal is Main base supply (1) send power to network 3 when is 3 low on power only, there is a much easier way. If your goal to send to main grid when 3 have excess power also possible in simpler way. Or both, can provide and can draw from main depends on battery level?

 

[TLW]

9 hours ago, SamLogan said:

In fact, it works like it should but new players don't understand how overload works.

I make no statement as to how it should work. I am stating that the current transformer mechanics - although ultimately grokkable (and I am well aware of them) - are rather unintuative and do not match the in-game description.

You can connect a transformer with 1kW output to a wire that supports 2kW, and yet the wire will overload.

[NoQuitting]

Think of power transformers this way, ordinarily if you are producing 2kW for your base you would split it in the left half and right half, with a power transformer you can put them all in one place and use the power transformer to split the electric network.

 

1 kW Generator --- BASE USING 2 kW in two grid networks --- 1 kW Generator

Base - transformer - 2kW Generator - transformer - Base

Does that make sense? i don't even think about transformers regulating power but instead creating a connected yet separate power draw network.

[Nickerooni]

On 8/4/2019 at 11:32 PM, abud said:

That last one using high-watt wire, middle should be safe. But about transformer that up there... might burn this wire when all battery in bottom charging (max 5k) draws from top.

 

The middle wire is not safe. That’s the one that overloaded. Maybe it’s worth a bug report? Or, maybe this is just a new standard in overloading protection - since this protects from your concern about the upstream transformer.

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 8/4/2019 at 5:41 PM, TLW said:

Yep, transformers don't really work as stated.

You would think that a transformer labelled `1kW` would prevent overloading on a wire with a max rating of `1kW`, but nope.

The transformer will limit the power through it to 1kw.  However, if you have a battery on the consumer side, then the consumers can draw from the battery at whatever power rate they require.  Another way to state it is: only 1kw is going through the transformer, but the entire capacity of the battery is available for the consumers.  

Think of a transformer as a rate limiter, not a surge protector.  If you want to use a transformer to protect your wires despite too many consumers, then you can't have any other energy storage devices or energy sources on the consumer circuit.

13 minutes ago, Nickerooni said:

The middle wire is not safe. That’s the one that overloaded. Maybe it’s worth a bug report? Or, maybe this is just a new standard in overloading protection - since this protects from your concern about the upstream transformer.

Again, you have a battery on the consumer side.  So the entire capacity of the battery is available for consumers to draw from.  The transformer isn't a surge protector -- its a rate limiter from the high side to the low side.  Think of it as a 1kw "generator" that is always active (as long as there is power above it).  So when your consumers aren't drawing much, the battery charges.  When your consumers are all active, they tap into the battery power PLUS the transformer power.  So now you're making 1kw + battery available to the consumers.

**edit: Sorry, I misread the second pic.   In this case, the transformer itself counts as a  consumer for the high-side wire.  It was a bug before that wires didn't burn out if transformers were the only consumer.  So while you could charge a battery on the wire directly, if you put a transformer in the middle then the transformer becomes a power consumer for the 'high' side wire.

[TLW]

On 8/6/2019 at 8:29 AM, KittenIsAGeek said:

Think of a transformer as a rate limiter, not a surge protector. 

On 8/5/2019 at 8:13 AM, TLW said:

I make no statement as to how it should work. I am stating that the current transformer mechanics - although ultimately grokkable (and I am well aware of them) - are rather unintuative and do not match the in-game description.

You can connect a transformer with 1kW output to a wire that supports 2kW, and yet the wire will overload.

 

[Kermack]

I'm not sure why people are using the transformers like this.  Why wire the low end of the transformer with heavy wire?