Why Epic Store is good for the game

[me real life]

I have the feeling that the majority of complaints about Griftlands being in the Epic Store is just unfounded bandwagoning. Complaining for the sake of complaining, adding nothing new to any discussion. In my opinion, Klei actually made the right choice in the long-run. Their deal is especially beneficial for an indie studio like them who need all the money they can get. Remember, they're not a AAA company that thoroughly milks its costumers and workers for profit, they're merely a smaller studio. While there are legitimate reasons to dislike the Epic Store (it's annoying to install yet another launcher) and Epic Games (a company proven to be conducting unethical labor practices), it's silly to act like it's somehow the end of the world just because a game was put on their storefront. We can try to look at the positives here, like the revenue allows Klei to be better funded for future projects or maintain current ones like Don't Starve Together.

[Murlo]

The reason people are upset is because EGS exclusivity is not a choice that benefit the customers in any way, and many are thinking that the customer should be the priority. The only argument against this is that the devs can use the money for other games, and in the end it will be great for the players too. The problem is that we have absolutely no idea on how much they got and how and where the money is going to be used. Maybe they are going to reimplement the money into the game ? Or maybe not at all ? We don't know, so from a player point of view, they got money and we got a worse launcher. Also, it's not just about "it's annoying to install another launcher", it's about the fact that EGS is total crap compared to steam, and that it's breaking the unicity PC gaming had when only steam was around.

[me real life]

9 minutes ago, Murlo said:

We don't know, so from a player point of view, they got money and we got a worse launcher. Also, it's not just about "it's annoying to install another launcher", it's about the fact that EGS is total crap compared to steam, and that it's breaking the unicity PC gaming had when only steam was around.

It's only for the alpha. Both early access and the official release of the game will be available on steam, not just the Epic Store.

[Murlo]

Yes and that's why I bought the game on EGS, cause I will get it later for free on steam.

My comment was not really my opinion but the complaints most people have, another problem is that people living in some countries can't buy the game at all because of EGS

[me real life]

1 hour ago, Murlo said:

another problem is that people living in some countries can't buy the game at all because of EGS

Which countries are served by Steam but not by EGS?

[zzKratoszz]

There are ethical reasons why someone may be upset with EGS. Such as the terrible treatment of their staff. To such a point epic pretend they are not even people. Then there are security reasons. Forget all the security breaches they have had if tencent games has any say on what goes on expect anything you put on that platform to be compromised intentionally. You may want to run the game store in the same environment you would a virus. I'm not saying it is a virus but this is something you should have 0 trust in it not being a virus. There is also the anti consumer angle which made the whole thing famous. Where epic attempt to take away consumer choice to no benefit of the consumer and sometimes not even the developers.

I'm not saying klei didn't ultimately make the right choice for them selves. But everything epic is doing is making things worse for the gaming industry as a whole. Its not just that the game is on the store front. It means we would be supporting all of the above if we choose to try and play this game unless we wait out the arbitrary 1 year exclusive.

 

[me real life]

1 hour ago, zzKratoszz said:

There are ethical reasons why someone may be upset with EGS. Such as the terrible treatment of their staff. To such a point epic pretend they are not even people. Then there are security reasons. Forget all the security breaches they have had if tencent games has any say on what goes on expect anything you put on that platform to be compromised intentionally. You may want to run the game store in the same environment you would a virus. I'm not saying it is a virus but this is something you should have 0 trust in it not being a virus. There is also the anti consumer angle which made the whole thing famous. Where epic attempt to take away consumer choice to no benefit of the consumer and sometimes not even the developers.

I'm not saying klei didn't ultimately make the right choice for them selves. But everything epic is doing is making things worse for the gaming industry as a whole. Its not just that the game is on the store front. It means we would be supporting all of the above if we choose to try and play this game unless we wait out the arbitrary 1 year exclusive.

 

That's correct, Epic Games, like most big game companies, perform unethical practices on their consumers (aggressively trying to set up a storefront monopoly) and especially on their workers (like coercing them into working 70-100 hours a week). I wasn't trying to defend this company, that's not the point. I think everyone can agree that these companies are horrible. If this wasn't about Klei, then the situation changes. Since unlike an indie studio, a higher revenue cut for AAA games wouldn't mean more money for the workers (because they have fixed salaries), the higher cut would just go to the executives and publishers. You honestly can't blame Klei for taking the deal is the point.

As for the argument that you're supporting Epic's practices by using their storefront: If you want to achieve ethical consumption, then think of everything else you consume, not just videogame storefronts. If you buy a AAA game, the developers most likely worked 70-100 hour weeks and got laid off as soon as the game released. Would buying those games mean you support that practice? Would buying shoes mean you support the child labour used to make them? Would buying smartphones mean you support the military conflicts caused by the mining of their raw materials? This argument doesn't really work and I doubt this even is why people are refraining from using the Epic Store.

[zzKratoszz]

12 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

That's correct, Epic Games, like most big game companies, perform unethical practices on their consumers (aggressively trying to set up a storefront monopoly) and especially on their workers (like coercing them into working 70-100 hours a week). I wasn't trying to defend this company, that's not the point. I think everyone can agree that these companies are horrible. If this wasn't about Klei, then the situation changes. Since unlike an indie studio, a higher revenue cut for AAA games wouldn't mean more money for the workers (because they have fixed salaries), the higher cut would just go to the executives and publishers. You honestly can't blame Klei for taking the deal is the point.

As for the argument that you're supporting Epic's practices by using their storefront: If you want to achieve ethical consumption, then think of everything else you consume, not just videogame storefronts. If you buy a AAA game, the developers most likely worked 70-100 hour weeks and got laid off as soon as the game released. Would buying those games mean you support that practice? Would buying shoes mean you support the child labour used to make them? Would buying smartphones mean you support the military conflicts caused by the mining of their raw materials? This argument doesn't really work and I doubt this even is why people are refraining from using the Epic Store.

Yes, giving people money who do horrible things means you are providing them financial support. I would ask you to reconsider this argument because the logic is sound on my end.

If I may, it sounds like your actual point, and excuse me if this is straw manning, is that when you only have 1 choice in purchasing something you need or want that doesn't mean when you buy it you agree with the practice. In which case I would agree with you.

Personally I can be quoted on these very forums bashing epic for being unethical before epic started restricting games to their platform. As restricting games is only the most popular of their tomfoolery and any 1 of the reasons I listed is enough for me to ignore a game or platform.

 

[WilliamGreywind]

7 hours ago, Murlo said:

The problem is that we have absolutely no idea on how much they got and how and where the money is going to be used.

Well we can't get an exact amount that Klei was given, but we can infer from epic's attempt to buy distribution rights for the latest Samurai Shodown game.

https://sparkchronicles.com/samurai-shodown-epic-games-store-wanted-exclusivity-but-snks-ceo-declined/

If Epic is willing to pay enough to cover hundreds of thousands of copies of Samurai Shodown, it can be implied Klei probably got a similar offer. Even if it was a smaller offer, being offered enough money that can cover thousands upon thousands of copies is a very influencing thing to give distribution rights.

[Seafort]

On 11/07/2019 at 5:27 AM, WilliamGreywind said:

Well we can't get an exact amount that Klei was given, but we can infer from epic's attempt to buy distribution rights for the latest Samurai Shodown game.

https://sparkchronicles.com/samurai-shodown-epic-games-store-wanted-exclusivity-but-snks-ceo-declined/

If Epic is willing to pay enough to cover hundreds of thousands of copies of Samurai Shodown, it can be implied Klei probably got a similar offer. Even if it was a smaller offer, being offered enough money that can cover thousands upon thousands of copies is a very influencing thing to give distribution rights.

If that's the case then Klei don't need our help and support when Epic covers all their expenses. Griftlands was on my Steam wishlist for over a year and then they went exclusive to Epic Store for a year or more. I promptly removed their game from my wishlist. I won't support a developer who is currently on a store that wants to bring down another store so moneyhats developers into being on their store exclusively for a year.

Contact me when Griftlands is on a store I want to support and not forced into buying from. Steam or GoG I'm not too fussed but Epic Store is out of the question for me and many others.

[Beardy Wilson]

I don't care as long as it's also fully aviable on steam. Tho, once they start to push out epic exclusives, that's when i'm gonna stop buying games from klei.I actually think they played it smart, but for many people i think its a bad sign. They might think it would lead klei to abandon steam just like metro and mordhau and many other games doing. And we don't know that they gonna go down that route or not, but it is still a possibility which i understand. But as I said. As long as the full game is avilable on steam i'm fine with it.

[zzKratoszz]

As Much as I disliked epic for their actions well before this deal took place. If I recall correctly the actual huge wave of backlash to epic didn't really get into gear until about a week after this deal with klei was announced. Klei might very well be fine with this deal for all future games as far as I know. But in their defense, so far they haven't publicly signed onto any deals with this large of an outcry.

I'd like to think that internally klei is simply trying to get through their contract without badmouthing their new partner. But after reading some of their responses in the live stream I'm not so sure that is the case right now. Their focus was more on the exclusivity. When my problem is less on the exclusivity and more so on the (for lack of a better word) cancer that they have partnered with. If the deal was with another steam then the only problem would be the annoyance of another launcher to download.

[minespatch]

33 minutes ago, zzKratoszz said:

When my problem is less on the exclusivity and more so on the (for lack of a better word) cancer that they have partnered with.

They've worked with tencent in the past on the DST side of things. I'm used to this.

[WilliamGreywind]

8 hours ago, minespatch said:

They've worked with tencent in the past on the DST side of things. I'm used to this.

Guess the signs were all there to begin with. Tencent holding Roseate skins hostage for a year was it? Now Epic is holding Griftlands for a year from us.

[minespatch]

13 minutes ago, WilliamGreywind said:

Guess the signs were all there to begin with. Tencent holding Roseate skins hostage for a year was it? Now Epic is holding Griftlands for a year from us.

Seems like it. Still waiting for the Torch and firepit:

[SquarelyCircle]

Doesn't Klei usually release alphas to a smaller crowd off of Steam? I may be wrong, but Isn't this how they've done it in the past? They only release on Steam after some significant Alpha period?

[Graep]

Quote

Their deal is especially beneficial for an indie studio like them who need all the money they can get. Remember, they're not a AAA company that thoroughly milks its costumers and workers for profit, they're merely a smaller studio.

This is precisely why the EGS deal is bad.

EGS exclusively targets studios that already have a market, they've targeted studios in an effort to jumpstart their market presence.

Steam might take a bigger cut but they offer a **** ton of free marketing and discoverability to indie's that EGS doesn't and seemingly has no plan on doing so.

I highly doubt Klei would have gotten their start if EGS was the only store on market at the time.

So by doing the deal they are in some small part hurting the indie game industry.

But I guess a little bit of safety and little bit of greed goes a long way. I'll see how this game is tracking in a year I guess...

[Sinister_Fang]

On 7/10/2019 at 5:11 PM, Sunset Skye said:

It's only for the alpha. Both early access and the official release of the game will be available on steam, not just the Epic Store.

And that's going to conveniently last for an entire year, just like every other exclusivity deal epic deals out. Yeah, that doesn't sound shady at all...

On 6/10/2019 at 12:51 PM, Bigfoot said:

We have partnered with Epic to bring the Alpha of Griftlands to the Epic Game Store exclusively for one year, and will launch in Early Access on Steam next June.

[HolyDeath]

On 10.07.2019 at 10:23 PM, Sunset Skye said:

I have the feeling that the majority of complaints about Griftlands being in the Epic Store is just unfounded bandwagoning.

Bandwagoning or not, there are valid reasons for people to boycott EGS exclusives:

1) To show that there is a group of players who are against the whole policy of exclusives, because it is damaging players' freedom to buy game on the platform of their choice. At least that's how the whole dislike for EGS and their exclusives' policy did start. Sure, they can bribe developers with money, but at the end of the day someone has to buy games from them for their plan to work, which is yet another reason for people to bleed them dry by not buying anything on EGS and blacklisting anyone taking such a deal

.2) EGS platform is weak as a gaming platform/service. The talk of it being a spyware or selling information aside, it simply doesn't offer anything better than Steam (if anything, it offers less). All it really does is forcing you to buy a game in their store through exclusivity. It's not exactly a form of competition that's good for the players.

People refusing to buy Griftlands at all and crossing Klei out from their shoping list (now and forever) is the way of the people showing they crossed the line by associating themselves with them. Is it over the top? Perhaps. Because it will be possible to buy it on Steam and not on EGS, but at this point it's purely about the principle. And sending the message.

Personally I will consider buying Griftlands on Steam, because the game seems to be interesting enough (and I am a fan of card games) and buying on Steam hopefully means EGS gets nothing out of their deal with Klei. But I don't blame people for taking the most radical stance here. Their reaction should come as no surprise to anyone who has been watching EGS' actions for the past few months.

[minespatch]

1 hour ago, HolyDeath said:

it simply doesn't offer anything better than Steam (if anything, it offers less)

I'm not blacklisting Klei, I'll just be patient and wait. Still not going to install Tencent's shifty program onto my laptop.

[TheYeast]

The title of this thread is misleading. The Epic store is not "good for the game," and the OP fails to make this case.

By using Epic, they will reach a much smaller audience than if they used Steam. Many people will boycott Griftlands (and Klei games in general), even on Steam, to protest Epic. Some Twitch streamers have stopped streaming Klei games in part because of this decision. Epic may have given them a lot of money, but if people stop buying Klei games, Epic will no longer be interested and will also stop paying them. The hate for Epic was there before this announcement, so Klei could have anticipated this reaction. It doesn't matter if the hate is rational or not, because it will still determine what people will buy.

This is simply the most recent in a series of bad business decisions.

On 7/10/2019 at 4:23 PM, Sunset Skye said:

We can try to look at the positives here, like the revenue allows Klei to be better funded for future projects or maintain current ones like Don't Starve Together.

Klei may be contractually obligated to use the funds from Epic only on Griftlands (otherwise, Epic would be funding games that compete with them - that's bad business).
For this reason, I will continue to support other Klei releases, though I won't be buying as many skins, DLCs, and merchandise, as they clearly haven't helped Klei's bottom line enough. I will not install the Epic Games launcher* and probably won't buy Griftlands even when it's on Steam.
*This, by the way, is the entire reason for temporary Epic exclusivity. Once you've got their launcher, they've got you. Once you've got their launcher and that one game you wanted, you'll be much, much more likely to keep buying games from them. Do not install the Epic launcher if you do not want to support Epic Games, their data collection, and their business practices.

[Jeuxlag]

I really don't get the crusade against EGS... Sure people work in terrible conditions, but it's also the case in a lot of other studios, and I don't see the same backlash against CD Projekt and GOG, even though some executives clearly said that crunch was necessary to make their games. Steam lets every game enter its store, resulting in many good little games lacking exposure. The list could continue indefinitely, and this won't end by not buying games on a store. Sure it's nice if you can spend your money more wisely and help studios that are in need rather than big ones, but don't expect to make a change just with that. Don't make Epic the new Monsanto when the problem is larger than a " big bad company" (I can bet every big company causes problems, to their employees, the environment, or anything).

Klei took the deal because they could use the money they were offered, that's pretty classic capitalism at work, and I don't blame people for not buying the game on EGS because it lacks basic functionnalities, or for ethical reasons, but in this case, I expect to see you at the next anticapistalist assembly, I will be more than happy to meet you, comrade.

(By the way, the game is fine, can't wait for the updates to come !)

[WilliamGreywind]

Well if Klei wants 88% of my 0 dollars, then thats fine. I refuse to use a half done product that doesn't even have a shopping cart. Capitalism is about different suppliers providing the best work for the best competing price. Epic game Store has no competition here, its just poaching games to force people to go to one place.