Misuto Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 So two things right off the bat, The vast majority of the players do not care in the slightest for speedruns of Don't Starve. That is a perfectly valid opinion to have and this is definitely not the post for you. Second, this post will contain a link to a YouTube video of a speedrun, if you aren't interested in that feel encouraged to not check the links, as these videos are not being posted for the sake of advertising but because they needed to be for the speedrun site. Also note, that the primary video that we will be talking about is a seeded speedrun, which is currently disallowed via the category rules. If anyone is interested in a real random speedrun then I can post a comment linking to it later. So here I discuss on speedrun.com the problems that are currently facing the leaderboards. The tl;dr version is this, Based on the current requirements for recording a speedrun, it is impossible to confirm whether or not a player has seeded his or her run. How can we change the recording requirements or perhaps even mod the game in order to force a truly random world to be created? (Also posted on reddit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlZalph Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Even if you eliminate the issue with the random seed being fixed, then you have to deal with people using a script to dump out the map's contents to a file that an external program could then read and display like a minimap pinpointing all of the good stuff in an ideal path to follow. Then if you require a whole screen recording and process recording, well that neglects the issue of someone using a second computer to offload the data to for displaying over the LAN. What's next, recording all packets too? That can be easily spoofed by merely filtering all packets to a specific DHCP client from displaying/recording. Recording the player play the game with an external camera? Can have the footage be spliced together with another prerecorded footage roll that hides the second display by having it render a wall instead. These speedrunning videos could all easily be faked for any single player offline game with the correct know-how. There's no real winning in this when you have people with full access to their own computers and hardware. You can only try to find 100% undeniable facts that proves they're cheating to use against them, which can be impossible. So to that, good luck finding a solution that makes you/that community feel good enough to trust others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imsomony Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 If there's a community focused on making rules and regulations around speedrunning games, and who wants to do it to this game, it seems like this question should be posed to them specifically. This game isn't really about speedruns or completionism... it's sandbox, and wide-open to modding and users manipulating the files to their hearts content. It was developed in such as way as to purposely NOT force rules or regulations that people had to follow, and instead allow them to create their own. You all creating speedruns is an example of how Klei let you make your own rules, rather than imposing them on you. I just don't know that you're going to find answers here, given that the game wasn't created for the purpose you're seeking answers for. It was meant to be a unique single player experience, which could be modified by that single player according to their desires. The only way to truly make sure other people aren't cheating would be to generate tons of your own seed maps and force speedrunners to use them at random, or host the game on your own server and have others doing their speed runs play ONLY on that server. But as far as I know, the latter isn't even possible with Don't Starve because it's not using networking other than between one player and the game platform (Klei, DRM-free, Steam. etc). You could try making Don't Starve Together dedicated servers, allowing only a single player in at a time, and making speedrun goals for that. You'd have to look at the DST modding forums for more details about randomizing worlds and ensuring data integrity though. You also wouldn't be able to have speedruns for the Teleportato since that doesn't exist in DST, you'd either have to make a mod specifically for that purpose (along with randomizing worldgen), or make the speedrun goal raid bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misuto Posted March 15, 2019 Author Share Posted March 15, 2019 Quote This game isn't really about speedruns or completionism... it's sandbox, and wide-open to modding and users manipulating the files to their hearts content Couldn't you say that it's exactly this fact that opens it up to being played in anyway that a user enjoys then? Via modding there exists a potential to enforce a more fair rule set to speedrun that allows for random runs. Also, this is not for DST, DST doesn't even have the things or world hopping, that's why this topic is posted in don't starve general and not DST general. It's also posted on the speedrunning site and reddit in an effort to bring the topic up to those who may not have considered this problem before or have even heard about DS speedruns. Maybe a modder here sees this and is inspired to try to help or a different player sees this and is inspired to try running it themselves. Clearly this was not the topic for you if your input is simply "don't speedrun it lol." 14 minutes ago, imsomony said: So to that, good luck finding a solution that makes you/that community feel good enough to trust others. This is the truth for any kind of slippery slope subject like this. Where does it end? Somewhere. The question is just where. Presently it is seeming less and less likely that a solution to the secret seeds problem will be found and more likely that we'll have to just adapt our idea of what a Best Ending speedrun of Don't Starve is, if we can't fight the seeds and verify runs, then the least we could do is lean in, make the category officially seeded, and post seeds along with runs so that people could compete on the same seeds or hunt for better seeds. This even has the potential to make the run more approachable to new players as I'm sure many people were turned off from doing such a luck heavy run previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imsomony Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Misuto said: Couldn't you say that it's exactly this fact that opens it up to being played in anyway that a user enjoys then? Via modding there exists a potential to enforce a more fair rule set to speedrun that allows for random runs. Totally, but what I'm saying is that it's not about that. "Fair" is a personal goal, which the game designers allowed the room for, but purposely didn't design for. Your question is about regulating the game against a community of players to ensure they're conforming to certain rulesets... but this game was made to allow players to NOT conform to the rules of others. So the community of players who wants or needs conforming would be best to reach out to. Yes, the mod forums here would also be good because they're the most experienced in how to tweak the game work for your needs. I haven't checked if you already cross-posted, but the mod forums for DS are here: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/forum/26-dont-starve-mods-and-tools/ 3 minutes ago, Misuto said: Clearly this was not the topic for you if your input is simply "don't speedrun it lol." That wasn't what I said, and I'm not laughing or snarking at you. I offered DST as an alternative because it's more readily made for your needs due to the way it was coded, so it would be a simpler way to achieve your goal. Don't Starve is coded differently because it was the original and not meant for networking or multiple people interacting with it. It's going to be a lot more difficult, if not impossible, because it was made to NOT be the purpose you're looking for. The other thing you quoted and responded to wasn't me, it was @CarlZalph. But yes, leaning in to seeding would help accomplish what you're going for. And DST would be a million times easier to do so because it allows you to create your own servers (and maps and mods and rules) to do so, while DS does not. You can even create your own mod for randomized Teleportato worlds in DST. As far as I understand, creating your own original Don't Starve server and allowing people to play on it would be violating the TOS, because you would be seeding your own game to others, and there would be no way for Klei to officially verify that those other people own the game as well and can legitimately play it. Maybe @PeterA can clarify further though, as he's very familiar with the differences between DS and DST coding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer PeterA Posted March 15, 2019 Developer Share Posted March 15, 2019 Due to how open the source code of Don't Starve is, it's going to be nearly impossible to verify that the player hasn't noodled with the inner workings of the game code before doing their speedrun. A dedicated server of DST will be a bit easier since the game is server authoritative, so there are fewer avenues for cheating. I'm not certain, but I believe the console builds have less access to the game's scripts, so that might be a better avenue for recording speedruns without tampering. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyT245 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Seeding in itself shouldn't be completely banned; rather, it should be made into a separate category. Have two different "leaderboards": one for seeded runs and one for random seeds. Seeding in itself is always consistent (in solo don't starve), and is really easy to learn. In addition, seeds can also be shared. If one person finds a seed with great routing, they can share it with others. Seeding is not cheating if it is stated, and they are competing with other people that are also seeding. Of course, in non-seeded runs, it should not be allowed; however like many of you folks have said, that is very hard to tell if it is or isn't seeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer bizziboi Posted March 19, 2019 Developer Share Posted March 19, 2019 6 hours ago, WesleyT245 said: Seeding in itself is always consistent (in solo don't starve) FYI: It currently is not in Hamlet worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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