Nerfed Fertilizer makers a tad much?

[Pbhead]

So, It seems that the efficiency of water -> fertilizer has not been changed, simply the throughput of the fertilizer makers.

And I noticed my bathrooms were getting clogged, because my Air scrubbers were filling all the pipes.

41.7 grams of polluted water per second.   120 watts.

So. basically: In order to get rid of the water from a single air scrubber, I would need 24!! fertilizer makers, using 2880! watts of power!!

The Air scrubber itself also uses 120 watts, for a grand total of 3000 watts for the system, not including pumps.  And of course power is limited of course to 2000 watts in a circuit. 

And then I need capacity for my bathrooms. Which make 11.7 Kg/use

So it takes ~280 seconds for one fert to clear one flush.  I am not sure how many seconds are in a cycle (one flush per cycle per dup)... So if you had hamster wheels powering that 3000 watts, 7.5 dups 24/7... youd need... well. Even more fert makers, which means even more hamster wheels, which means more circuits, and more dups, and the heat generation probably needs to be taken into account, which means cooling, which means more hamster wheels, which means more dups, which means more flushes, and...

Which all boils down to: I am quite happy that I don't let my Dups take showers.

[xbeo]

I always wondered what to do with all the polluted water when you have access to a geyser.

I dont know how long this will work well, but I guess I will just pour it down into that sinkhole. Supports infinite showers for some time.

[bzgzd]

2 hours ago, Pbhead said:

So. basically: In order to get rid of the water from a single air scrubber, I would need 24!! fertilizer makers, using 2880! watts of power!!

The Air scrubber itself also uses 120 watts, for a grand total of 3000 watts for the system, not including pumps.  And of course power is limited of course to 2000 watts in a circuit.

But you don't need Air Scrubber to run permanently unless you have huge amount of dupes.

I am not sure from that description how much CO2 it removes, but maybe 300 g/s or maybe 400 and so that would be enough for 150+ dupes.

Connecting air scrubber to fertilizer maker means it will run only sporadically (1/24) and so use only very little energy and also you don't need to deal with turning it on and off if you have right amount of fertilizer makers connected to air scrubber for your number of dupes.

I have currently only 6 dupes and air scrubber connected to only one FM is more then enough for me and no pumps needed or anything else.

 

[Risu]

Worth mention that the air scrubber never goes idle.
Always draining 120W even if it ain't doing anything.
 

[bzgzd]

12 minutes ago, Risu said:

Worth mention that the air scrubber never goes idle.
Always draining 120W even if it ain't doing anything.
 

Really? Some bug or? But it says Airs scrubber: 0.0 W /120 W

And what about that description? Requirements -300 g/s and then effects -100 g/s?

[Risu]

9 minutes ago, bzgzd said:

Really? Some bug or? But it says Airs scrubber: 0.0 W /120 W

And what about that description? Requirements -300 g/s and then effects -100 g/s?

Check the storage. If it's waiting for CO2 it'll be trying to consume it forever.

The weird description relates to it consuming from the air to put into storage where it is then consumed again.
 

[bzgzd]

44 minutes ago, Risu said:

Check the storage. If it's waiting for CO2 it'll be trying to consume it forever.

The weird description relates to it consuming from the air to put into storage where it is then consumed again.
 

Ok I got it. You mean it is draining 120W when it is in pure oxygen and not in CO2. But that's OK, that is why I was turning it off and on.

But now when connected to fertilizer maker it is not using any power most of the time because it is waiting for FM to take some contaminated water from pipe and so that FM effectively slows down air scrubber to optimal speed.

 

[Saturnus]

It is probably easier to liquefy CO2 rather than scrubbing it as the temperature requirement is rather low, and in fact can be achieved passively with wheezeworts. Like hydrogen it is also an excellent coolant due to it being the heaviest of the naturally occurring gases which means that gravity alone will act as a filter in a mixed gas environment. In liquid form some chlorine contamination is even acceptable.

[MoMuffins]

No LqCO2 is a terrible coolant.  It has mediocre specific heat and terrible thermal conductivity.  The only saving grace is that it is heavy so it is easy to recover in an oxygen environment.

2 hours ago, bzgzd said:

Ok I got it. You mean it is draining 120W when it is in pure oxygen and not in CO2. But that's OK, that is why I was turning it off and on.

But now when connected to fertilizer maker it is not using any power most of the time because it is waiting for FM to take some contaminated water from pipe and so that FM effectively slows down air scrubber to optimal speed.

 

I'm confused.  How is the fertilizer maker has anything to do with the air scrubber?

The Air scrubber takes in 300 g/s of CO2 and stores it in its inventory.  Then it works on that stored CO2 at 100 g/s and 1000 g/s  of water into 1000g of dirty water.  It takes in CO2 faster than it can work on it.

[bzgzd]

59 minutes ago, Fatmice said:

I'm confused.  How is the fertilizer maker has anything to do with the air scrubber?

Output of air scrubber (polluted water) is input of fertilizer maker.

And it is not necessary to connect it to 24 fertilizer makers as OP wanted to do but just 2 or 3 depending on number of dupes and amount of CO2 available that will be continuously converted into fertilizer without need to switch air scrubber on and off.

 

[MoMuffins]

Oh that.  Yes, don't need that many if you are just treating the polluted water from the air scrubber.  Each fertilizer maker can process 25kg of polluted water a day.  If you allow dupes to have showers and toilet, then each will need 2 fertilizer makers to process their wastes.  Depending on the trait, each dupe can produce anywhere from 2-1.5 g/s of CO2.  A day is 600s so that's 1.2-0.9kg per day per dupe.  This means 12-9kg of polluted water from the air scrubber per day per dupe.  So you need 2.48-2.36 fertilizer maker per dupe.  A colony of 4 dupes will need 10 fertilizer makers to keep the polluted water under control.

I do think that the nerf to the fertilizer maker performance is a tad much.

[Saturnus]

1 hour ago, Fatmice said:

No LqCO2 is a terrible coolant.  It has mediocre specific heat and terrible thermal conductivity.  The only saving grace is that it is heavy so it is easy to recover in an oxygen environment.

Hmmm... I think the best property, and the whole reason it is in fact the best coolant in the game regardless of it's seemingly mediocre stats is that it can be passively produced without the use of any power at all with wheezeworts.

[MoMuffins]

5 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Hmmm... I think the best property, and the whole reason it is in fact the best coolant in the game regardless of it's seemingly mediocre stats is that it can be passively produced without the use of any power at all with wheezeworts.

Wheezeworts do not make CO2.  If you mean they can cool CO2 into LqCO2, then yeah they can do that.  But you would still need to pump the CO2 to a freezing room.  If you like CO2, then you will love propane.

[Saturnus]

11 minutes ago, Fatmice said:

Wheezeworts do not make CO2.  If you mean they can cool CO2 into LqCO2, then yeah they can do that.  But you would still need to pump the CO2 to a freezing room. 

Again no. You really haven't considered the possibilities properly.

The beauty of CO2 is that it is heavy. You do not need to pump it anywhere in gas form. You can just let it sink into a room to liquefy it on it's own. This will compress the volume about a 1000 times creating it's own powerful suction to have more CO2 sink, or in fact literally pulled down by underpressure, and so on. The only thing you need in a CO2 cooling system is a liquid pump to pump the coolant where you need it to go.

[MoMuffins]

And where exactly will these wheezeworts be?  They will be at the bottom of the room cooling everything above it.  The cooling CO2 will eventually condense generating a vacuum that will pull down gasses from above.  There's no way to separate temperature.  If a gradient can be maintained then it would work as a natural air conditioner.  You would need a tall room though.  How tall I do not know.  Would probably only work until they increase the heat exchange rate of gasses.  Currently, they exchange rather slowly.

[Octyabr]

Just now, Saturnus said:

The only thing you need in a CO2 cooling system is a liquid pump to pump the coolant where you need it to go.

Or mop it to completely destroy it...

In a previous map (before the beta branch) I had three wormholes (I call them that, it just were three tiles of The Void) I used for disposal, very helpful.

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, Octyabr said:

Or mop it to completely destroy it...

To work most effectively some liquid CO2 on the floor of the condensing chamber is actually beneficial. Mopping the floor will really not be a good idea.

[Saturnus]

6 minutes ago, Fatmice said:

 How tall I do not know.

About 30 tile long shaft from the bottom of your base at least

[PickPay]

7 hours ago, Pbhead said:

So, It seems that the efficiency of water -> fertilizer has not been changed, simply the throughput of the fertilizer makers.

And I noticed my bathrooms were getting clogged, because my Air scrubbers were filling all the pipes.

41.7 grams of polluted water per second.   120 watts.

So. basically: In order to get rid of the water from a single air scrubber, I would need 24!! fertilizer makers, using 2880! watts of power!!

The Air scrubber itself also uses 120 watts, for a grand total of 3000 watts for the system, not including pumps.  And of course power is limited of course to 2000 watts in a circuit. 

And then I need capacity for my bathrooms. Which make 11.7 Kg/use

So it takes ~280 seconds for one fert to clear one flush.  I am not sure how many seconds are in a cycle (one flush per cycle per dup)... So if you had hamster wheels powering that 3000 watts, 7.5 dups 24/7... youd need... well. Even more fert makers, which means even more hamster wheels, which means more circuits, and more dups, and the heat generation probably needs to be taken into account, which means cooling, which means more hamster wheels, which means more dups, which means more flushes, and...

Which all boils down to: I am quite happy that I don't let my Dups take showers.

Boy that sounds terrible, I was quite happy with how it worked just before last patch... I do hope something is wrong in the calculations no offense !

[Saturnus]

7 hours ago, Pbhead said:

So it takes ~280 seconds for one fert to clear one flush.  I am not sure how many seconds are in a cycle...

600

So it takes 0.467 fertilizer makers per dupe or 56W on average which equals 0.187 hamster wheels*

*remember that hamster wheel can't be operated 24/7. At best dupes can run on them 5/6th of the time but only if there are excess dupes. A single dupe cannot use the hamster wheel more than 3/4th of the time maximum due to needing breaks for eating and going to the loo.

[MoMuffins]

4 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

About 30 tile long shaft from the bottom of your base at least

Maybe.  I do not know about the stability of such a system though.  CO2 gas production must even balances out with LqCO2 production.  Any imbalance will change the gradient by exposing breathable gasses to the wheezewort.

Perhaps it does work.  I do notice that a small pocket at the bottom right of a base can hold a lot of CO2 given enough breathable gas pressure.

[MoMuffins]

9 minutes ago, PickPay said:

Boy that sounds terrible, I was quite happy with how it worked just before last patch... I do hope something is wrong in the calculations no offense !

It is not that bad, but clearly they over did it.  They can maintain the same polluted water to fertilizer ratio but increase the production rate.

[Saturnus]

6 minutes ago, Fatmice said:

Maybe.  I do not know about the stability of such a system though.  CO2 gas production must even balances out with LqCO2 production.  Any imbalance will change the gradient by exposing breathable gasses to the wheezewort.

Perhaps it does work.  I do notice that a small pocket at the bottom right of a base can hold a lot of CO2 given enough breathable gas pressure.

I do miss the days when mealwood (edit: all plants in fact) consumed air though. It was such an easy way to set up a energy free air circulation system. Now it's much more tricky especially because convection for some reason doesn't exist in the game at all.

[MoMuffins]

1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

I do miss the days when mealwood consumed air though. It was such an easy way to set up a energy free air circulation system. Now it's much more tricky especially because convection for some reason doesn't exist in the game at all.

Convection probably eats a lot of computation, but some sort of simplified convection will be needed as it is rather jarring to setup a cold box only to see pockets of above average temperature in it. 

[Vilda]

37 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I do miss the days when mealwood (edit: all plants in fact) consumed air though.

I am still convinced that was some fluke. Risu did not find anything in code to suggest they did. And I was never able to successfully replicate the experiment. And I tried 5 times with various plants, garden size and density..