Meatballs & Wigfrid

[VexTheHex]

 I feel these two have a really bad relationship with balance. 

 

Wigfrid- Yes, I know Wolfgang can be stronger than her in Mighty Form. But he also has a larger con as he has to eat much more and keep himself well fed or else he is weak. The transformation down to a weaker form has even gotten me killed by itself. Wigfrid's downside is she only eats meat. Well you start off with two free pieces, and what's the list of creatures she can kill for early meat without any prep cause of her Helm and Spear? Pigmen, Merms, Frogs, Rabbits, Turkeys, Tallbirds + Egg, Bunnymen, Tentacles, Spiders, Spider Warriors, Beefalo, and basically anything else that crosses her path. And once a Crock Pot is made, her negative is dead... casue well... meatballs are more or less filler and not meat. 

 

Meatballs- 1 Morsel and 3 ice. 1 Monster meat and 3 ice, There is too much filler potential in Meatballs itself. I mean that'd be some soggy, disgusting meatballs there. Also makes starving in Winter or anytime really rather hard to do, even early on in your first Winter for newer players once they know Meatballs is a thing. Other recipes like Dragonpie, Honey Ham, and Eggs & Bacon are good foods as well but require multiple steps or more specific ingredients. I'm sure it's the most used recipe by a large margin, since how easy it is to make for a rather nice payout for the lack of actual work put into making in. 

 

 The two together has created servers full of Wigfrids and Meatballs. Since both may not be the absolute strongest, but they are by far the easiest with a huge pay off in return. Both of them "feed" off eachother's success as well. I'm thinking that maybe the meat value should be increased for meatballs whether a small tweak of .5 to 1 (2 morsels at least) or 1.5 which would likely be too high. Or maybe make a new "Meatballs." It wouid be what came out if you're fillers outweighed your meat like 1 Monster & 3 Ice or 1 Morsel & 3 Berries. It would give less hunger and Wigfrid wouldn't eat them. 

[PanAzej]

Ice usable as filler removes all challenge of winter. Remember how you had to save up your food because in winter it was pretty scarce and hard to come by? Well, ice is free, self generating, infinite food source.

Yes, you can still "lol use birdcage gg" to get infinite filler from monster meat, but at least you have to construct the darn thing and then catch a bird, that can also die when left not fed for too long. Meanwhile to get ice you just need 2 flint + 2 twigs.

And it never spoils in icebox, meanwhile eggs will rot. Yeah, you can cook them and get new eggs from the birdcage, but again, you have to DO SOMETHING to achieve not-spoiling of your crockpot filler.

Using so much ice in the recipe should result in Wet Goop. Makes sense, right? Some filthy meat piece with 3 pieces of frozen water shouldn't carry you through a survival game.

[KitcheVadimas]

Yeah, either Wigfrid needs a bigger debuff or meals that use too much ice should make "watery soup" or something.  I'm perfectly OK with meatballs needing 1 meat value as well.

[leonseye]

My Wigfrid just makes Bacon & Eggs or Meaty Stews, honestly.  She is a mighty valkyrie, big meats are not exactly hard to come by.  Nor are monster meats.

But a lot of people depend on Meatballs, even outside of Wigfrid.  I think the proposed changes actually hurts everyone else a lot more than it hurts Wigfrid.

[PanAzej]

6 hours ago, leonseye said:

My Wigfrid just makes Bacon & Eggs or Meaty Stews, honestly.  She is a mighty valkyrie, big meats are not exactly hard to come by.  Nor are monster meats.

But a lot of people depend on Meatballs, even outside of Wigfrid.  I think the proposed changes actually hurts everyone else a lot more than it hurts Wigfrid.

Yeah, but Bacon & Eggs actually require a bit more work to make. Birdcage, and a piece of non-monster meat (unless you try to gamble, but that's not consistent and shouldn't be considered to be a reliable food source).

Yes, a lot of people depend of Meatballs, but 1 Monster Meat + 3 Ice? C'mon. I don't say remove Ice as filler completely, just make it so using a lot of it results in Wet Goop. I never use berry bushes when I have ice. Why would I? Berries spoil and don't regrow in Winter. They're inferior to Ice.

About Wigfrid. Yes, she's kinda overpowered, but Klei didn't change her. I guess every game needs an easy-mode character, and here it's Wigfrid.

[BeastNips]

1 hour ago, PanAzej said:

Yeah, but Bacon & Eggs actually require a bit more work to make. Birdcage, and a piece of non-monster meat (unless you try to gamble, but that's not consistent and shouldn't be considered to be a reliable food source).

Yes, a lot of people depend of Meatballs, but 1 Monster Meat + 3 Ice? C'mon. I don't say remove Ice as filler completely, just make it so using a lot of it results in Wet Goop. I never use berry bushes when I have ice. Why would I? Berries spoil and don't regrow in Winter. They're inferior to Ice.

About Wigfrid. Yes, she's kinda overpowered, but Klei didn't change her. I guess every game needs an easy-mode character, and here it's Wigfrid.

I'd say Bacon and Eggs are completely reliable (see my food guide in General Discussion) but they do take a little bit of setting up. 

I totally agree with 0.5 Meat and 3 Ice being ridiculous, but I don't think Meatballs should be altered to 1 Meat; as someone mentioned this is going to punish everyone rather than just nerf Wigfrid. Remember that Meatballs have some serious limitations such as spoiling fairly quickly and not really restoring a lot of hunger (despite how efficient of a recipe it is).

I think the above suggestion was quite good: anything with more than 2 Ice becoming wet goop.

At the end of the day, Wigfrid was unlock-able in RoG after earning a fair bit of experience. She is supposed to be a little over-powered as she was something to aim for. Also keep in mind that she has a smaller hunger pool (not a huge disadvantage but still annoying for long trips). 

In my opinion she doesn't have the advantages you get from say Wolfgang, Webber, or Wicker.

•  Wolfgang: Once you learn to manage his hunger, he's superior to Wigfrid in combat against pretty much everything once you get a tentacle spike (fairly easy to get). Yes he loses sanity faster, but you kill much quicker which often leads to lower sanity loss overall.
• Webber: Army of spiders trumps Wigfrids combat ability against everything other than DC and Dragonfly and his ability to farm/eat monster meat makes him a character with very easy hunger management. 
• Wicker: Wigfrid is suited to one role but Wicker is totally versatile with her books; they give her the ability to accomplish a huge range of different tasks out of reach of other characters. 

I feel Wigfrid is overpowered for simple game play; once skill and creativity come into it she lags behind. However, I do play her in public servers that I don't intend to stay in for long. 

[PanAzej]

1 hour ago, BeastNips said:

I'd say Bacon and Eggs are completely reliable (see my food guide in General Discussion) but they do take a little bit of setting up. 

What I meant is, gambling for Bacon and Eggs (2 Monster Meat + 2 Eggs) is not a reliable way to get food.

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Remember that Meatballs have some serious limitations such as spoiling fairly quickly and not really restoring a lot of hunger (despite how efficient of a recipe it is).

Yes, but it should at least require berries/carrots/cooked birchnuts... I mean anything edible that makes sense. Not a piece of frozen water.

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In my opinion she doesn't have the advantages you get from say Wolfgang, Webber, or Wicker.

I agree. But Wigfrid's problem isn't that she's not the best character out there. She has a ridiculously easy start (a helmet, with which she can survive even Bigfoot stomp + weapon better than regular spear + food), and she's better in combat, which means getting food is never a problem for her.

In the long run her helmet (which is still the best, easy-to-get armor piece in the game) is the only thing that makes her not completely outclassed by others. But still, her early game is a cakewalk.

[leonseye]

3 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

What I meant is, gambling for Bacon and Eggs (2 Monster Meat + 2 Eggs) is not a reliable way to get food.

While this is true, Wigfrid has a much easier time NOT having to gamble on using 2 Monster Meat than other characters.  For her, Bacon and Eggs is a reliable recipe, because she can very easily do 1 Big Meat + 1 MM + 2 Eggs.  The only other character that has this ease is probably Wolfgang, who has hunger problems to balance him out.

That's all I'm saying.  You're across the board nerfing everyone by nerfing the Meatballs recipe, but it doesn't actually effect Wigfrid as much as the others because she can just swap to an even better, longer lasting meal more easily than the others.

[PanAzej]

13 minutes ago, leonseye said:

While this is true, Wigfrid has a much easier time NOT having to gamble on using 2 Monster Meat than other characters.  For her, Bacon and Eggs is a reliable recipe, because she can very easily do 1 Big Meat + 1 MM + 2 Eggs.  The only other character that has this ease is probably Wolfgang, who has hunger problems to balance him out.

That's all I'm saying.  You're across the board nerfing everyone by nerfing the Meatballs recipe, but it doesn't actually effect Wigfrid as much as the others because she can just swap to an even better, longer lasting meal more easily than the others.

Yes, she doesn't have food problems, nor any other problems for that matter. Her hunger is easy to restore, and all her other stats are restored by simply doing her job. Should she be nerfed? Sure, but in what way? Maybe she should only eat raw meats. Or make her hunger drain faster (but that would make her a weaker Wolfgang). If she would be a vegetarian, that would balance her out, I think. But that wouldn't make sense as her character trait. And she wouldn't be rewarded for doing her job enough. So, Wigfrid players would focus on farming more than actually fighting. That's bad design.

It's just that Ice is overpowered, too. That's what I'm getting at. It outclasses every food out there, by never spoiling and being really easy to get. After the first winter you can just straight up survive on Monster Meat and Ice alone.

[leonseye]

Fair enough, but the title is misleading then. : )

This seems to be more about nerfing ice than anything else.

[PanAzej]

2 minutes ago, leonseye said:

Fair enough, but the title is misleading then. : )

This seems to be more about nerfing ice than anything else.

I'm not creator of this thread, but person who made it seems to complain about crutches (things overpowered for new players, not that useful for experienced players).

Combining Wigfrid with Meatballs is ultimately making this game way, way too easy. And players know about that, and abuse these two things. This way Wigfrid never has to worry about hunger (her only downside), because she can just kill ONE spider and put in the crockpot some of her never-spoling ice.

I'd rather remove ice-meatballs, because it makes ice too strong. It's useful in its own ways, don't make it this ridiculously good.

[BeastNips]

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What I meant is, gambling for Bacon and Eggs (2 Monster Meat + 2 Eggs) is not a reliable way to get food.

I see, my mistake. Actually, if you have a steady supply of MM you can probably just take the risk as all you're wasting is MM which is more or less free for Wigfrid if you set up near spiders. I think it's 50% to be B&E so you'd probably waste around half. Let's face it though, you've always got access to rabbits and/or frogs to fill that 0.5 meat space. 

I agree that meatballs are a bit of a crutch which is why it could be nerfd to 2 Ice maximum in recipes, but it's certainly not something a semi-experienced player would rely on, because Bacon and Eggs is such a reliable winter-proof food. Meatballs suck as the end of the day; no matter how easy they are to make for the benefits they bring they're only ever a bridge to a better staple food for me. 

On reflection I probably think Wigrid is fine as she is. I think the real issue here is how easy she is for newbs to play so you get stuck with a server full of Wigfrids which is annoying. I'd say it's up to the community to educate newer players on the advantages of other characters. You only ever need one Wigfrid and that's for her helm and spear, not her fighting ability. Wendy is a better spider farmer and Wolgang is a better monster killer. 

[leonseye]

4 hours ago, PanAzej said:

About Wigfrid. Yes, she's kinda overpowered, but Klei didn't change her. I guess every game needs an easy-mode character, and here it's Wigfrid.

Also, just for the record, Klei DID change her.  She no longer receives her big health and sanity bump after defeating creatures; instead, she gets MUCH smaller gains while fighting.  It was definitely a nerf, as she could take out giants and then pop her health / sanity back up to manageable levels on killing them, but that's no longer a thing.

And yeah, I get that you're not the OP; I still think the title is misleading, as it doesn't do much to actually nerf Wigfrid... just Meatballs.  : P

[PanAzej]

45 minutes ago, BeastNips said:

I agree that meatballs are a bit of a crutch which is why it could be nerfd to 2 Ice maximum in recipes, but it's certainly not something a semi-experienced player would rely on, because Bacon and Eggs is such a reliable winter-proof food. Meatballs suck as the end of the day; no matter how easy they are to make for the benefits they bring they're only ever a bridge to a better staple food for me. 

Yeah, Bacon&Eggs is really strong, but I think with its requirement of regular meat piece it's fine. Birdcage was nerfed once, but nerf was reverted, due to negative feedback. And I agree, it's not worth building if it can't convert Monster Meat into better foods, unless you really want that Dragonpie farm as Wickerbottom.

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On reflection I probably think Wigrid is fine as she is. I think the real issue here is how easy she is for newbs to play so you get stuck with a server full of Wigfrids which is annoying. I'd say it's up to the community to educate newer players on the advantages of other characters.

Wigfrid is for new player what Wes is for experienced players. The character they feel is the most satysfing to play as. Experienced players will get bored of Wigfrid, since she's way too easy to do great with, and newer players are happy because they don't die that much.

40 minutes ago, leonseye said:

Also, just for the record, Klei DID change her.  She no longer receives her big health and sanity bump after defeating creatures; instead, she gets MUCH smaller gains while fighting.  It was definitely a nerf, as she could take out giants and then pop her health / sanity back up to manageable levels on killing them, but that's no longer a thing.

Imo it was like this: "Oh, yeah, our bosses have over 5000 hp now... We gotta change her."

You just get hp/sanity regen while fighting instead of getting it post-battle, which in my eyes is a buff, since creatures' health is so high, that fights sometimes last about a day. But what do I know.

[leonseye]

8 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

You just get hp/sanity regen while fighting instead of getting it post-battle, which in my eyes is a buff, since creatures' health is so high, that fights sometimes last about a day. But what do I know.

I said this exact same thing when the change went through, but as a Wigfrid (experienced) player, the reality is that it was a pretty hefty nerf.

You won't really notice the hp/sanity regen during fights unless you're fighting very weak creatures like spiders or pigs.

Some people prefer battle-oriented characters, and there are really only 2 choices for this.  Wolfgang and Wigfrid.  I choose Wigfrid, as she can actually provide support to the other players on my server on top of being a great fighter.

/shrug

[BeastNips]

18 minutes ago, leonseye said:

I said this exact same thing when the change went through, but as a Wigfrid (experienced) player, the reality is that it was a pretty hefty nerf.

You won't really notice the hp/sanity regen during fights unless you're fighting very weak creatures like spiders or pigs.

Some people prefer battle-oriented characters, and there are really only 2 choices for this.  Wolfgang and Wigfrid.  I choose Wigfrid, as she can actually provide support to the other players on my server on top of being a great fighter.

/shrug

I'd say she adds support in short term games as her helm and spear helps the group a lot and she can fight pretty much anything as soon as she starts. However, in the long term game:

1. Her helm and spear aren't a massive advantage as you're rolling in pig skins (yeah it's not quite as good, but it's not a hugely noticeable difference and pig skins weirdly become easier to get than stone) and you'll often have chests full of tentacle spikes and access to ham bats whenever you need them.
2. You'll be over producing food which makes Wolfgang a far superior combat character for large monsters. This is his support to the group: huge amounts of damage. 
3. Wendy will have Abigail out ready to farm lesser monsters like spiders far faster than Wigfrid ever could. 

[Serph]

Meatballs were always cheap to make and it has nothing to do with Wigfrid, any character can cheese winter and hunger with it. It's made by 0.5 meat +3 filler, that's the way pot works and if you change it then you have to change a lot of other things like ice or recipes, it's not happening. Wigfrid is fine as it is. Her hp/sanity drain was nerfed and she loses the best sanity recipes. 

I don't really understand this complain, Wigfrid has a weakness so of course players will do X thing to counter it's weakness. That's like saying "Wickerbottom weakness is managing her sanity without sleeping but anyone can go to the desert and get 30 cactus so we should nerf cactus."
 

6 hours ago, BeastNips said:

I'd say she adds support in short term games as her helm and spear helps the group a lot and she can fight pretty much anything as soon as she starts. However, in the long term game:

1. Her helm and spear aren't a massive advantage as you're rolling in pig skins (yeah it's not quite as good, but it's not a hugely noticeable difference and pig skins weirdly become easier to get than stone) and you'll often have chests full of tentacle spikes and access to ham bats whenever you need them.
2. You'll be over producing food which makes Wolfgang a far superior combat character for large monsters. This is his support to the group: huge amounts of damage. 
3. Wendy will have Abigail out ready to farm lesser monsters like spiders far faster than Wigfrid ever could. 

Wigfrid is more than "Spear and Football Helm 2.0". She has 200 hp and a 1.25x damage and defense multiplier (that apparently everyone forgets). 

[VexTheHex]

 i'll just do just a general reply. The talk on Experienced and Inexperienced doesn't seem that important as far as I know the only "late" game activity is the Ruins. The crutches existing make it pretty darn easy to survive Winter unless you're new or have 3-4 useless mouths to feed. (Those Willows who stand and stare at the firepit all day after dying to Darkness Day 1) My longest runs I end up getting reckless as there doesn't seem to be anything more to do. Hound attacks seem to be the only way to throw you off. Caves/Ruins are pretty much brand new to me, so I spend my time learning and dying down there. 

 

 People like to throw up Wickerbottom, Webber, and Wolfgang. 

Wickerbottom- She is harder to play then Wigfrid. The "Know many things" is a backfire as she doesn't get early sanity from the making new recipes. She can't sleep which will hurt her in both sanity and hunger in dire situations. The stale food, I don't even notice though. Thing is she requires much more planning and brain power to play. Reeds aren't always the easiest things to gather and cactus could end up being a decent ways from base. She is powerful, but I honestly rarely see her. Maybe 7 Wigfrids to 1 Wickerbottom.

 

Webber- I see him quite a bit, and yes he can eat monster meat as well. However, I don't see that many Webber that actually seem to know the game, they usually seem newer. He is God tier for Spider Farming along with Wendy, but I'm not sure how he benefits the team that much more than anyone else. Bosses make quick work of his armies and in my current game, I realized it seemed Underground Spiders don't spawn as easily or as many at a time. so building an army down there didn't work out too well soo far. I was eating the ton of monster meat we had stored at base going bad, but really and truly it could of just been given to the bird and made into Bacon & Eggs so me eating it wasn't saving us that much effort.

 

Wolfgang- I have seen... more Wes than Wolfgang. He can do more damage than Wigfrid, yes, But, he also struggles early game and has an unreliable source of damage to you are well established. Most people also don't want to be caught out "Wimpy" if danger arrives (Hounds) but keeping well fed or carrying around a bunch of food hurts the team. Wigfrid faces none of that in the slightest. 

 

 Overall I feel like many crutches do indeed exist in the game, making it rather hard to get killed once you know the basics. And even if you do, Live Giving Amulets take away that worry. Deerclops and Bearger spawn on the same day, making people always ready. Oh, they also spawn at the player so just have your host/longest living go a mile down the road to drop the spawn off. Deerclops or Bearger will simply slowly strut back and forth confused where's the structures and food are. (Does Deerclops and Bearger randomize after the first one?) I miss the old days of every winter night there being the fear Deerclops will come and destroy it all. Ice makes preparing for Winter food wise pretty much obsolete. You actually have to go hunting for Varg or Ewecus. I guess i'll keep to my Ruins for now to have any risk since I don't know how it works down there. Right now, I'm a little confused what the Experienced players face challenge wise, as I'm sure many of you already know the Ruins in and out. Isn't every game just never ending now unless you really goofed? 

[BeastNips]

4 hours ago, Serph said:

Meatballs were always cheap to make and it has nothing to do with Wigfrid, any character can cheese winter and hunger with it. It's made by 0.5 meat +3 filler, that's the way pot works and if you change it then you have to change a lot of other things like ice or recipes, it's not happening. Wigfrid is fine as it is. Her hp/sanity drain was nerfed and she loses the best sanity recipes. 

I don't really understand this complain, Wigfrid has a weakness so of course players will do X thing to counter it's weakness. That's like saying "Wickerbottom weakness is managing her sanity without sleeping but anyone can go to the desert and get 30 cactus so we should nerf cactus."
 

Wigfrid is more than "Spear and Football Helm 2.0". She has 200 hp and a 1.25x damage and defense multiplier (that apparently everyone forgets). 

I don't think anyone forgot about that. I was making the point that once food production is taken care of, Wolfgang is a better choice for combat in my opinion.

My overall point was that as your game progresses Wigfrid becomes less and less relevant until it reaches a point where another character would have been a better choice. But early game she's great. 

[leonseye]

1 minute ago, BeastNips said:

I don't think anyone forgot about that. I was making the point that once food production is taken care of, Wolfgang is a better choice for combat in my opinion.

My overall point was that as your game progresses Wigfrid becomes less and less relevant until it reaches a point where another character would have been a better choice. But early game she's great. 

Wolfgang is the more offensive version of the 2 fighter characters, imo.  Wigfrid is designed to be more of a defensive character.

Wolfgang receives a speed and damage modifier at the cost of having to always keep a stock of "get strong" food around, kinda like Popeye.  He also has a higher sanity drain while traversing the night and Caves, which I personally dislike.  Outside of beating things up, he offers no support to a group.

Wigfrid receives a full-time damage and defense modifier at the cost of keeping meat on her (which means she will be fighting Bunnymen in the Caves).  She has a lower overall sanity than most characters and less ways to restore sanity than other characters, which means she will need to use a Tent at times.  However, the helmet she can craft for the group has almost DOUBLE the hp of a football helmet for a very cheap cost (rocks and gold are easy to come by and are renewable resources), making her better in group play as she can still offer support to members w/out needing to near them.

I think they are a wash, personally.

[BeastNips]

I honest find Wolfgang's sanity more manageable than Wigfrid as he has a larger pool and can pick cactus and mushroom; in SP I think picking a flower a day would off-set his increased night time sanity drain and bring it in line with other characters; not sure for DST. With monsters he kills them much faster which also off-sets the fact his sanity is draining more. 

I can't argue with the helmet and spear but I've honestly never found myself in a late game with a tentacle spike and a football helmet thinking "Man! I wish I had a Wigfrid in the group."  But I have found myself going toe to toe with Deerclops wishing I was Wolfgang. 

Each to their own I guess. 

[DragonMage156]

Whoa, didn't see this thread here. It seems as though you guys have gone straight from meatballs to who's then best characters in DS :/

Imo, I think Wolfgang would be stronger but personally I don't like playing as him very much. Wigfrid (as stated in previous posts) doesn't get weaker with an empty stomach and has a cheap craftable helmet and spear. Ok, I would admit, I am stuck wanting/looking for a tentacle spike some point later in the game but swamps are usually the death of me in many playthroughs (obviously I'm doing something wrong -_- ) so I just stick with the spear most of the time. (Btw, she starts of with 4 meats, not 2. Just saying).

As for other characters, I don't usually play as Wickerbottom or Webber. Not that I have anything against them, they're just not as easy to play as imo. I would admit however, that Wendy and Abigail are stronger than Wigfrid and can actually eat fruit and veggies when there's no meat present. I even like to play as Wilson, Willow (sometimes) and occasionally, Woodie.

As for meatballs, I usually use two berries/carrots and two morsels. I didn't know you could also use ice as a filler. Still, I would only use two rather than three.

[The Letter W]

I'd just say that ice should be more limited to one, two at the max. I find new players hoard berry bushes like no tomorrow so I don't think they'll be bothered too much if they suddenly can't use three ice. 

I can't really say too much on the Wigfrid/Wolfgang debate... I don't play either of them regularly. That being said, I have only seen a Wolfgang player once in my entire time of playing. Wigfrid... she's almost as common as Wilson. 

[MycoLogical]

That's because Wigfird is Uber!

[PanAzej]

I love playing Wolfgang in singleplayer, but in multiplayer... not so much.

When you join a random server, there's a high chance that all berry bushes near the starting point are emptied and overall, all food is mostly taken. So you'll be wimpy (and slow) really soon.

As Wolfgang, I need to set up - build a Crockpot, get food, cook it. Also get a pig skin, make an Alchemy Engine, then make a helmet, OR chop lots of wood, build a science machine and get a good piece of armor.

And all of that for what? Higher damage multiplier than Wigfrid only when I'm above 225 Hunger (that drains super-fast)?

I'd rather use Wigfrid, because she doesn't need any preparation and has her perks all the time. She has one negligible downside. And she starts with a way to counter that downside (4 big Meats on start). Going by that logic, Wolfgang should start with a Meaty Stew/Hunger Belt.