Asbestos and abyssalite

[Penassa]

Hi, 

So playing the game at the moment i find that one thing that is terribly OP and basically kills the need to ever build insulating tiles/pipes/vents is abyssalite. 

As it stands abyssalite is the god mineral, if you make anything out if it it has near game breaking insulation properties. I  work (as a job) with and manage risks associated with a silicate mineral called asbestos. 

Let's compare some of the properties of both Asbestos and Abyssalite. 

is it naturally occuring in the environment? yes both are.

is it an incredible and near impregnable insulator ? Yes both are. 

Is it Fire/heat proof ? Yes both are

Is it resistant to cold temperatures? Yes both are

does it when disturbed and handled release massive amounts of toxic dust (fibres) into the immediate gas or liquid medium ? it's a yes for asbestos and a NO for abyssalite. 

If you breathe/eat/drink said toxic dust does it give you a form of incurable inflammation/scarring of said digestive/respiratory system ? yes for asbestos NO for abyssalite

so this is where YOU devs come in ! ! ! 

my suggestion is. if people want to have stuff made out of this super insulative, near indestructible mineral fine .... but make them have to deal with subsequent health issues to your dupes. 

Make it so that abyssalite when its natural form (as it spawns) behave like it is now and let it be stable (not release toxic fibres). Now everytime abyssalite is disturbed (dug/handled/stored/constructed) release this toxic "germs" (representing the dust fibres) into the environment (any gas or liquid), now every time a dupe breathes/ingests said "germs" they can contract some sort of disease (as an example reference: Asbestosis) 

in real life asbestos dust cannot be destroyed it does not decompose it can only be gathered and contained. in real life water is used as a method of gathering nad containing asbestos. the idea is that in game once you start messing with abyssalite it will release "Abyssalitossis" germs into the environment and they just sit there you cannot destroy them and they won't disappear (maybe except venting them into the vacuum of space) making it a risk/reward decision to use abyssalite. don't want to used it great you won't produce dust, want to use it in moderation and controlled way, great you have to build and support said infrastructure, want to use it loads then so be it your dupes will suffer, therefore your base efficiency and dupe effectiveness will be low.

i know there are a lot of gaps in the idea, but hey I'm not a game dev. but you guys are, so figure out the nitty gritty. just throwing this idea out there (because i was playing around in the game and found that abyssalite kind of behaves like asbestos and it would be cool to have to deal with the toxicity associated with it) 

Thanks for reading, until next time. 

Penassa    

 

[Oozinator]

Sounds nice

[Sasza22]

Abyssalite causing disease is an interesting idea. But i still prefer mine that it should be unminable like neutronium but you could use explosives to change it into crushed rock that`s easily minable.

[Mariilyn]

The texture always kinda made me think of blue asbestos although it looks more like another mineral (that I randomly found on wikipedia) named "glaucophane" which might be related.

.. at some point I wanted to post this same idea but I completely forgot 

 

 

[Penassa]

14 hours ago, Mariilyn said:

The texture always kinda made me think of blue asbestos although it looks more like another mineral (that I randomly found on wikipedia) named "glaucophane" which might be related.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

.. at some point I wanted to post this same idea but I completely forgot 

 

 

Yeah it was initially blue/brown asbestos that got me thinking of the similarities. 

this is a picture i found of the ore 

but yeah and Blue asbestos is by far the most deadly to humans and responsible for the majority of deaths because the fibres are so small and thin and it breaks down really easy. 

[babba]

+1 on the initial first post

[Lilalaunekuh]

I really like the idea of having some adverse effect on dupes that have contact with abyssalite:

Maybe reduce their immune system or give them some kind of debuff

 

Would still keep the powerful properties for industrial setups and would make ceramic more worthwhile

[Oozinator]

Mh me thinking.
Abbyssalite solid mass was reduced to 500Kg max.
It's still not so easy to harvest all that stuff for isolation.
When abbyssalite would be harmful, it must be to counter early game, same tier then deodorizer and harm should scale up with mass of solid block.
When one "abbysorizer" can "suck/bind" hazard from a 500Kg tile, why not adding back some rare abbyssalite solid blocks with higher mass and danger. "dust explosion"..

[Penassa]

i was thinking more on the lines of to counter the heavy use of abyssalite. 

dupes would get exposed and get a little bit of "abyssalitosis", being exposed a little its not harmful but it would be something that would stay with them forever like Lilalaunekuh said it would reduce their immune system, making them more prone to catch other diseases. 

so if you want to use it for relative small things like a few insulated water pipes, even just to dig a little 2 tile high tunnel to leave the initial safe buble,or a small barrier around a particular hotpoint in your base then you could just use limited amounts and your dupes wouldn't directly feel the adverse effects of it they would just get a little bit of dust in them forever reducing the immunity system. 

but on the other hand if you want to build a complete "box" made out of abyssalite around you base (like i do) and have every single pipe/airduct abyssalite (like i do), then you gonna have major problems with all this toxic "germs" around  unless you build the infrastructure for it. i.e. Airlocks, Envrio suits, sanitation, maybe even a decontamination shower (?), vents into space perhaps ?

and the problem with this new "germ" (dust) is that it doesn't have growth conditions like slime lung, but doesn't disappear ethier. its just there forever. all you can do is gather it and contain it. 

in real life if you get exposed to asbestos today (unless in a ridiculously high amount) you won't feel any different tomorrow, you probably still be fine in 5 years time, you will probably be fine in 10 years time, but you will find that in 15+ years you will have a high chance of lung/intestinal/bowel cancer and you have probably suffered with respiratory problems (shortness of breath/pneumonia/irritable bowels) more than your average person. 

the point i am getting at is: if you use it in very small amounts your dupes will generally cope with it, if you used it in moderate amounts and have the infrastructure/safety in place you will be fine, but if you start digging and using it willy nilly, then you will find your dupes will probably be "fine" for the next 10 cycles but eventually their health will catch up with them and in 20-30 cycles you will find your dupe effectiveness so low because everyone is sick all the time because they have this immune deficiency. 

my idea is to make it something that if you exploit and misuse it would eventually grind your base down to a halt ....  

[babba]

Idea: Would it be to demotivating for players to implement cancer in to the game ?

So the penalty of everything which Penassa wrote above and initially...Would be cancer "Illness" for the dupe, as the dupe gets in contact with abyssalite, not wearing an exosuit. Lets say that 1% chance of contact results in terminal cancer and the rest in curable cancer, if the dupe contact was only for short time.

Such a cancer-sheme could even be used for heavy radioactive radiation, if we ever get the atomic age gear in to the game.

[Oozinator]

15 minutes ago, Penassa said:

my idea is to make it something that if you exploit and misuse it would eventually grind your base down to a halt ....  

Germs worked that way, before nerfed to death..

[Penassa]

23 minutes ago, babba said:

Idea:

Would it be to demotivating for players to implement cancer in to the game ?

So the penalty of everything which Penassa wrote above and initially...Would be cancer "Illness" for the dupe, as the dupe gets in contact with abyssalite, not wearing an exosuit.

Lets say that 1% chance of contact results in terminal cancer and the rest in curable cancer, if the dupe contact was only for short time.

i think implementing cancer into the game is not a "cool" thing to do. it's definitely a sore point in our society today as a whole and joking with and taking such theme lightly might be offensive to some as Cancer has had such a devastating effect on many families throughout the globe. 

now to your second point how disease works in the game at the moment is. dupe comes in contact (breathes/eats) said X amount of germs that reduces his immunity system by a percentage depending on the amount of germs. your dupes have on a normal setting 15% immunity growth every cycle now if said germs reduces their immunity by 20%. that will give the dupe a net 5% decrease on their immunity "pool" and that will continue until they reach 0% at which point they will be ill. while this is happening the germs inside their body are dying (because of medical treatment) this in turn reduces the penalty to their immunity and eventually the dupe will have a positive net immunity growth and be health again.  

now what i am suggesting is to create this new "abyssalitosis" germ that once its in your dupe it will give a negative immunity growth. the major difference with this disease is that the dupes can't get rid of it. the germs would be there forever because they neither grow or die off. therefore the negative penalty to their immunity growth is permanent, making them more prone to other conventional illnesses. and if you disregard their exposure limitations to the point of gaining a negative immunity debuff naturally then they will be a drain on your base (requiring medical treatment and or vitamin buff permanently) and if you continue to disregard it then they might even (should their exposure be great enough) eventually die from it.   

13 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

Germs worked that way, before nerfed to death..

i get that. 

but diging through a whole biome (for slime lung) and using toilet (for food poisoning) are much more common and necessary activities than digging through abyssalite.  

because there are alternatives to abyssalite, its just the fact that abyssalite is infinitely better than anything else.

[Oozinator]

2 minutes ago, Penassa said:

because there are alternatives to abyssalite, its just the fact that abyssalite is infinitely better than anything else.

Only temporary solutions (isolation). Abbyssalite is top tier isolation material.
Casual playerbase would never accept those "harmful" changes to abbyssalite (i bet), but perhaps it's possible to mod stuff into ONI like that.
 

[babba]

I must say that I only use Abbyssalite as an insulator and I would enjoy protecting dupes without Exosuit from the material. I can imagine it as a nice additional little challenge. I would expect some indication/animation of the dupes as they come in contact with Abbyssalite without exosuit, to make this effect and context understandable...Especially for new players.

[Penassa]

you are right Oozinator

but you could possible balance it in such a way that your average dupe that digs, let's say 10 tiles worth of abyssalite, would only be in contact with enough germs to reduce his/hers immunity growth by 1-2% (making it 13-14%) 

using it for isolating a geyser or making a cool water pipe are acceptable small uses of abyssilate in my opinion. and late game if you want to exploit the magma biome then you should have by then the sufficient infrastructure ready to deal with any adverse effects of abyssalite 

what i think that is exploity and a misuse of abyssalite is (and this is what i do btw) unless i need something to behave in a different specific way i will build everything out of abyssalite (walls/floors/pipes/ducts) because it is stable and and amazing insulator.  

[Oozinator]

44 minutes ago, Penassa said:

...

 

what i think that is exploity and a misuse of abyssalite is (and this is what i do btw) unless i need something to behave in a different specific way i will build everything out of abyssalite (walls/floors/pipes/ducts) because it is stable and and amazing insulator.  

But then you run a endgame base, everything researched and toying around with it.
That's balancing stuff, could be done later, when more content is in the game.
Depends on your playstyle. I use it only where i need it..

[Lilalaunekuh]

6 hours ago, babba said:

Lets say that 1% chance of contact results in terminal cancer and the rest in curable cancer, if the dupe contact was only for short time.

Adding a chance based illness seems like the worst that could happen to ONI (One of the reasons I am not the biggest rimworld fan ...)

 

6 hours ago, Penassa said:

now what i am suggesting is to create this new "abyssalitosis" germ that once its in your dupe it will give a negative immunity growth. the major difference with this disease is that the dupes can't get rid of it. the germs would be there forever because they neither grow or die off.

I don´t think a real permanent debuff would fit.

=> Maybe let our dupes exhale some germs (Increase spreading but could result in a gem-free dupe if your ventilation is good)

(Or reduce them gems by a specific amount each time a dupe is treated (reached 0% immunity))

[babba]

I enjoy reading the comments on the ONI forum, personally I am hoping for some new threats in the game - Threats where we also have or a given the tools to cause, avoid, eleminate or reduce them.

Pssshhhhhhht...Whispering "Atomic Age"

Im a proud supporter of new machinery, industry, industry & industry + I like the idea in this thread that some material can be a real hazard challenge, but the material in exchange provides bonuses or advantages if used appropriate.

In combination of this threads idea...the mining of "abyssalitosis" could require advanced drilling equipment, a drilling machine which has to be built at first, fuelled with petrol ( Mhhhhh jummy petrol piping / gas station ) and is operated by one or two dupes.

Adding fire / combustion hazards to the whole bonanza would be the cream on top !

[Oozinator]

55 minutes ago, babba said:

..

In combination of this threads idea...the mining of "abyssalitosis" could require advanced drilling equipment, a drilling machine which has to be built at first, fuelled with petrol ( Mhhhhh jummy petrol piping / gas station ) and is operated by one or two dupes...

Not nuclear powered?

[babba]

Well, as an nuclear powered train would be great...But lets save the devs from a heart attack xD .Thinking about it, it could be built similar like the existing conveyor belt system. "Trains" if people her that, they get interested.

"The game has trains ?" > "Yeah, but only coal powered and you can only attach up to 10 waggons. You also need to sarcrifice water for the trains steam engine" > "Ohhhh".

"How do they move up and downwards?" > "It a little like an elevator system, but allows massive amount of ton`s to be moved" > "Ohhh".

"I heard the game has this new hazard material...Abyssalitosis. Can it be transported by train ?"

"Sure. The mining machine excavates the stuff and then a crane can load it in to the waggons" > "Ohhhh. Let me test the game for a bit". 

[Oozinator]

6 minutes ago, babba said:

 

"The game has trains ?"

The game has permanent idle dupes..

[babba]

2 hours ago, Oozinator said:

The game has permanent idle dupes..

Mhhh, I guess I will encounter this problem too once Ive built every tile on the map. New hazards,content and machinery would keep me happy to update built map areas.

On this threads topic - What about "Abyssalitosis" ice cream for idle dupes  - As recreation hihihihihi.

[Oozinator]

Just now, babba said:

..

On this threads topic - What about "Abyssalitosis" ice cream for idle dupes  - As recreation hihihihihi.

^^

[Alfons100]

3 hours ago, Penassa said:

you are right Oozinator

but you could possible balance it in such a way that your average dupe that digs, let's say 10 tiles worth of abyssalite, would only be in contact with enough germs to reduce his/hers immunity growth by 1-2% (making it 13-14%) 

using it for isolating a geyser or making a cool water pipe are acceptable small uses of abyssilate in my opinion. and late game if you want to exploit the magma biome then you should have by then the sufficient infrastructure ready to deal with any adverse effects of abyssalite 

what i think that is exploity and a misuse of abyssalite is (and this is what i do btw) unless i need something to behave in a different specific way i will build everything out of abyssalite (walls/floors/pipes/ducts) because it is stable and and amazing insulator.  

Why not just make that digging Abyssilite will make, say, 5% of what you dug into a toxic gas (So you get about 45% of it directly as an usable material), which can be breathed and will causes heavy immune system damage. But after a few days the gas will solidify into Abyssilite again and is no longer dangerous (Is faster if it is cold or at low pressure). Or maybe do that Abyssilite has some sort of new Bacteria in it which thrives in the gas/dust that occur when you dig it.

This will discourage the Abyssilite meta we have now, and approve better of using safer materials such as Ceramic.

[Penassa]

1 hour ago, Alfons100 said:

 

This will discourage the Abyssilite meta we have now, and approve better of using safer materials such as Ceramic.

And that is the whole point of this idea. to stop the out of control abuse of abyssalite. giving an additional hazard/challenge to manage, ti give other less used materials/buildings a chance to have a use, and to also make you think more about how/where/when do you break into new biomes through the abyssalite barrier. 

while still keeping the possibility for limited/controlled use of abyssalite. and maintaining the properties of abyssalite considering they are needed to separate biomes.