Electrolyzer hydrogen generation

[Vanikp97]

Hello, i tried to build oxygen production station using electrolyzers (see pic.). By what i know Anti Entropy Thermo-Nullifier uses 10 g/s of hydrogen. The whole system should produce 112+112 g/s H2 (2 electrolyzers), and use 100+100+10 g/s H2 (2 generators + Nullifier). But there is not enough hydrogen to feed even 1 generator (currently 1 is off). There is no over pressure and i dont know whats wrong. Help please

P.S. its not question about electricity, i know that with 4 filters a need more then 1600 watts. just wondering why there is so little amount of hydrogen

[zergologist]

Have you checked your plumbing? all the hydrogen goes to the nullifier pipes first. You wanna have a safety net that allows you to keep the gens running and the nullifier cooling

[Angpaur]

Check you build against hydrogen deletion problem. Pump 100kg of water and store produced gases in reservoir. After all water is electrolyzed check how much hydrogen is in the reservoir. You don't even have to filter the pumps outputs - it turns out one gas reservoir can hold multiple gases.

Another thing is how do you expect that nullifier to cool down anything if there is almost zero gas in the chamber? You are just wasting that hydrogen in this kind of setup. That nullifier should be in a separate room, well isolated and fully filled with hydrogen. Then you run radiant pipes around it and oxygen is cooled down in this pipes. But expect the oxygen to go to large negative values unless you throtle cooling in some way.

[Vanikp97]

10 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

Check you build against hydrogen deletion problem. 

Another thing is how do you expect that nullifier to cool down anything if there is almost zero gas in the chamber? You are just wasting that hydrogen in this kind of setup. That nullifier should be in a separate room, well isolated and fully filled with hydrogen. Then you run radiant pipes around it and oxygen is cooled down in this pipes. But expect the oxygen to go to large negative values unless you throtle cooling in some way.

The oxygen is already cool enough for me (from 13 far left pump to -0.4 far right), seems that lot of gold thermoplates help, but if i have problem in future i will insulate nulifer. I ll check about hydrogen deletion. But what is the problem with deletion? I have never met that

[Neotuck]

4 minutes ago, Vanikp97 said:

But what is the problem with deletion? I have never met that

any build involving placing electrolyzers in confined spaces causes gas deletion due to over pressure

it may turn off when it detects overpressure but the last packet of gas it produces will sacrifice the smaller gas packet to make room for the larger one (the hydrogen is always smallest)

This might not seem like much but electroliyzers over pressurize frequently in confined spaces so that hydrogen loss starts to add up

This is why I don't like most S.P.O.M. designs, better to build a large room and collect the hydrogen on the top using element and atmo sensors 

[Vanikp97]

From 160 L of water i received 15.8 Kg of hydrogen, while should have receive 17.92 Kg. It was pretty inaccurate experiment, probably with larger  amounts I ll see that a lose more. Now i understand where is a problem, thanks for answering! 

 

[xenoborg]

Hydrogen generators require 100g/s and hold 2kg of reserve, if you want both of them to run, you need to let the pipes back up for a while while both of them are switched off, your hydrogen packets are being merged into maybe 200 ish and being sent to the first one which by the time the next packet arives has used this up.

In all likelihood though even if you let it get backed up due to the deletion bug you may not be producing enough to run two gens and an AETN.

[psusi]

2 hours ago, Neotuck said:

any build involving placing electrolyzers in confined spaces causes gas deletion due to over pressure

it may turn off when it detects overpressure but the last packet of gas it produces will sacrifice the smaller gas packet to make room for the larger one (the hydrogen is always smallest)

This might not seem like much but electroliyzers over pressurize frequently in confined spaces so that hydrogen loss starts to add up

This is why I don't like most S.P.O.M. designs, better to build a large room and collect the hydrogen on the top using element and atmo sensors 

So why does a larger room stop the gas deletion?

[Neotuck]

1 minute ago, psusi said:

So why does a larger room stop the gas deletion?

consider flow rate gas moves freely in open space tiles to reach gas pumps, it's actually slower than the electroliyzer emits

having a large room creates a nice buffer so over presser happens less frequently 

 

[Lifegrow]

34 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

consider flow rate gas moves freely in open space tiles to reach gas pumps, it's actually slower than the electroliyzer emits

having a large room creates a nice buffer so over presser happens less frequently 

 

a 2 x 7 room with 2 pumps and an electrolyzer will get you near perfect ratios from my last testing a month or so back.

It's only about keeping pressure down near the electrolyzer, 2 pumps can handle that easily providing they're close by.

However, most spom builds use tile separation to split the hydrogen to the top pump, which allows the pressure to build near the electrolyzer, which in turn ***** up the output ratio.

[Neotuck]

Just now, Lifegrow said:

a 2 x 7 room with 2 pumps and an electrolyzer will get you near perfect ratios from my last testing a month or so back.

It's only about keeping pressure down near the electrolyzer, 2 pumps can handle that easily providing they're close by.

However, most spom builds use tile separation to split the hydrogen to the top pump, which allows the pressure to build near the electrolyzer, which in turn ***** up the output ratio.

Ether way I like the build you did in your videos, I'll make one like it whenever I get around to needing more oxygen

I'm in the 300s cycle with 9 dupes and still using my terrariums and got over 20 tons algae surplus (have not been strip mining algae so there is plenty on the map if I need more)

[Saturnus]

As proven here one of the most common electrolyzer set ups with built in gas separation have perfect oxygen to hydrogen output ratios.

Not almost perfect. But actually perfect. Note the golden nugget of information in there as well.

 

[psusi]

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

Not almost perfect. But actually perfect. Note the golden nugget of information in there as well.

I'm missing the nugget.  Is the idea that any time it becomes overpresurized it deletes some gas?

[Saturnus]

5 minutes ago, psusi said:

I'm missing the nugget.  Is the idea that any time it becomes overpresurized it deletes some gas?

No.

Quote

...so my conclusion (is) that there is a deletion when the electrolysers first receive water or when the water runs out.

...

This set up is 100% efficient with no mass deletion as long as the water supply is stable.

This comes from the fact that no matter the length of run time in any one session, the missing mass was always exactly the same, and corresponding to exactly 1kg of water going missing.

[psusi]

6 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

This comes from the fact that no matter the length of run time in any one session, the missing mass was always exactly the same, and corresponding to exactly 1kg of water going missing.

Yes, but did you back stuff the oxygen at any point and let the electrolyzer overpressurize?

[Saturnus]

3 minutes ago, psusi said:

Yes, but did you back stuff the oxygen at any point and let the electrolyzer overpressurize?

Yes. It didn't matter. Same with blocking hydrogen output. No difference.

Again. The only thing, as in, the absolutely only thing that could provoke any mass deletion of any kind in this set up was letting the water run out and starting the electrolyzer up again.

[Angpaur]

16 hours ago, Neotuck said:

This might not seem like much but electroliyzers over pressurize frequently in confined spaces so that hydrogen loss starts to add up

This is why I don't like most S.P.O.M. designs, better to build a large room and collect the hydrogen on the top using element and atmo sensors 

No need for building large rooms. All it takes is a proper layout of pumps, tiles and automation. I was experimenting with it some time ago and here is a layout that allows electrolyzer to be up 100% time and there is no hydrogen deletion:

Spoiler

 

[Lancar]

As Angpaur illustrated, the key to proper Electrolyzer management is lies in how you prevent them from overpressurizing  It takes approximately 1½ gas pumps to pump the oxygen away from the Electrolyzer, and the Hydrogen is produced at the top-left of the machine.
Therefore, placing pumps BELOW the Electrolyzer is best.

I usually build a fairly energy-inefficient design with 2 electros and 3 pumps below them, with a pump in a U-shaped cup some ways above to extract the hydrogen (regulated with a gas pressure sensor to prevent it from running too much)
Once you've let it run for a while, there's no need to use filters for it either (though i tend to place those anyway, just in case)

[Neotuck]

41 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

No need for building large rooms. All it takes is a proper layout of pumps, tiles and automation. I was experimenting with it some time ago and here is a layout that allows electrolyzer to be up 100% time and there is no hydrogen deletion:

  Hide contents

 

what are the atmo sensors set to?

[Angpaur]

11 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

what are the atmo sensors set to?

I don't remember quite well. It was some time ago. But it should some low values - like 200 on bottom one, and 400 on upper.

Don't let it mislead you to think that pumps aren't pumping full packets - they are. Not full packets could start if you set atmo sensors to ~100. Then the 4 working intake tiles of a pump will not have enough gas to suck.

[Neotuck]

1 minute ago, Angpaur said:

I don't remember quite well. It was some time ago. But it should some low values - like 200 on bottom one, and 400 on upper.

Don't make it mislead you to think that pumps aren't pumping full packets - they are. Not full packets could start if you set atmo sensors to ~100. Then the 4 working intake tiles of a pump will not have enough gas to suck.

a nice build I have to admit, most of the S.P.O.Ms I build end up flickering over pressure 

here's my oxygen setup, I'm almost to cycle 400 and still haven't run out of algae 

 

[Angpaur]

Nice one too! Probably serves well to utilize all that regolith.

Algae seems to be plentiful. Maybe some changes were made to world generation. I prefer to use algae for pacu breeding. I keep 2 of those at a time and they consume 280kg per cycle. But I have still lots of algae and more waiting to be mined.

[Neotuck]

mine only consumed 20kg per cycle average (this is for all 12 total) due to the downtime I automated from the atmo sensor

as you can see from the tooltip most of my oxygen generation comes from the deodorizers that surround the polluted water bottles so I consume sand and water more than algae 

[Angpaur]

Yeah, I saw that it is deodorizers producing your O2. That is why I consider this a good idea to utlize regolith and turn it into clay. When I run low on clay I will probably build something similar. Thanks for showing this.

[Neotuck]

1 minute ago, Angpaur said:

Yeah, I saw that it is deodorizers producing your O2. That is why I consider this a good idea to utlize regolith and turn it into clay. When I run low on clay I will probably build something similar. Thanks for showing this.

ya I got like 5 kilns melting an ice biome for the past 100 cycles

now I have plenty of water to last me a while and about 200 tons of ceramic