Klei's Red-Headed Step-Child

[Saturnine]

Let's resurrect a dead topic.

Krampus needs some TLC and a behavioral redesign. I listened to the podcast Kevin linked in the forums earlier today, and spent the better part of my shift at work trying to break down and rebuild Krampus in my head. I have a lot of love for him, and figured it'd be worth my time to pitch my idea and the how's and why's.

From here I'll bullet-point what I think holds him back, and what I think would put him more inline with the rest of Klei's creation.

- Morality

The goal of Don't Starve is to survive. So, the game throws us into a natural world, in a desperate survival situation, then proceeds to unleash upon us the only source of morality. Morality is an arbitrary human construct. It doesn't exist in the wild, but somehow Krampus is meant to embody wrongdoing and retribution (crime and punishment). I realize this comes from traditional Krampus lore, but it doesn't naturally flow with the rest of the creatures in the Don't Starve world.

-His Eco-Terrorist Tactics

To re-align Krampus, we need to make him a natural force. He needs to be and act like another beast. Don't change the animations, the art, the core behavior, just change his motives. Currently, he messes up your camp and steals your items because he wants to avenge the slain woodland innocents. If all my friends were slain by some wild scientist with a shovel, and I were to act upon my anger, I wouldn't just toilet paper his house and steal whatever I find between his couch cushions. That's what he currently does, and it just doesn't feel right.

I propose we overhaul his motivation. Cut the morality, treat him like Don't Starve's version of a dragon. Make him a singular powerful entity. Traditionally, dragon's steal treasure and horde it. They're greedy, powerful, singular thieves. Make Krampus absolutely obsessed with hording meat. Make him run in with his bag, steal all your meat, and run back to his stash with all the zeal a ham-thief can muster.

-There's Too Many of Them

Krampus doesn't have commonplace behavior -- he doesn't have it currently, and my proposed ideas aren't commonplace either. Beefalo wander around like simpletons, rabbits wander around just outside their holes, birds land and fly away. These are simple actions for plentiful beasts. We've been prepped for unique animals and locations already... Chester, The Pig King, The Teleportato, The Koalephant. We're no longer where we were when Krampus first came out. It's okay to turn him into a singular entity, and I vote we do so. Make one Krampus and give him back his mythical scariness. Multiple weak Krampuses kills the feel for me.

-He's Too Weak

Nobody fears Krampus now that he's been nerfed into oblivion. In fact, some people even farm him for his bag. We can't have a ton of overpowered Krampuses running around, but given the right behavior, we can have one horrifyingly strong Krampus. Make him as strong as Optimus Pine. Make him stronger. Do what you have to do to put the fear of Krampus back in us.

Here's how I envision Krampus-discovery playing out. As the player eats meat, his Meat-o-meter is raised. After a set amount of time, it decreases marginally... just like the current Naughtiness rating. Krampus, being enraged by Wilson engorging himself on wild meats (after all, this is Krampus' land) raids Wilson's camp. He hit's the chest 1 time (ONE TIME. Do not destroy the chest. This enrages players) and all the meat in the chest is ejected (only the meat). Krampus runs around quickly (QUICKLY) picking up the meat. This part isn't designed to give the player a chance to recover the meat. This is there to show the player briefly what Krampus is after.

From here, it goes one of two ways. The player either runs from Krampus in fear, and goes to cry among his vegetable gardens (this is the right reaction). Or the player stands too close to (or worse... engages) the Krampus. Krampus wants only one thing. Meat. He's obsessed with hording morsels, drumsticks, hams, everything. And he'll ignore you if you go away and let him take his dues. But if you get between him and what's rightfully his... he needs to leave a lasting impression. We really need to up Krampus' brutality.

If the unprepared player has done the smart thing and hidden from Krampus, Krampus runs away to his Stash. Krampus' stash needs to be a unique location on the map. Make it a big pile o' meat, maybe some large bones like a big hollowed out carcass full of meats. Maybe surround it with some sort of primitive idols. Small statues in the shape of Krampuses -- something to set it apart and tie in the idea of Krampus before the player investigates.

If the player runs up and hits the meat pile (just like spider dens) a very angry Krampus jumps out of his mountain of ham and attacks the player. If you run far enough away, he'll disengage. If you catch him before he "gets away from you", you recover the things he stole.

This should allow Krampus to help mitigate meat farming, and make him a more interesting creature.

I wish I had the time to edit and revise this post more thoroughly, but I'm just gonna pitch it.

TL;DR - Make Krampus a powerful single creature who's hellbent on stealing meat from the player and taking it back to his cache, because he's a greedy meat horder.

[Kittiko]

I agree he should be buffed and only one powerful one should spawn instead of a bunch. I agree he should be a boss mob like spider queen or the tree guy. I don't agree that he should only horde meat though. I think they should keep the naughtiness rating but raise the cap to like 100 or so, get rid of the reduction completely and retweak the point value for each mob. So Krampus WILL definitely spawn at some point. How soon depends on your play style though.

[LtShinySides]

Krampus is too good for us.

[fear_town]

I think they should keep the naughtiness rating but raise the cap to like 100 or so, get rid of the reduction completely and retweak the point value for each mob. So Krampus WILL definitely spawn at some point. How soon depends on your play style though.

This is an excellent idea.. I love it.. Good work Kittiko..

[Saturnine]

The reason I proposed we change his "story" is because of the awkwardness of the morality mechanic. Also, much of it feels like Klei took the Krampus lore and pasted it onto a "make them stop hoarding meat" monster. What was inconvenient was then trimmed out. Krampus is traditionally supposed to steal children away in his sack for being bad. DS Krampus steals your things for being bad. It's a very weak punishment for a crime he feels is so heinous that he's driven to intervene.Personally, I feel like it's a bit of a flimsy "Christmas update" costume. It was fun at the time, and it still makes me smile that we had a Christmas monster. But I think if Klei isn't happy with where it is, and if the community isn't happy with where it is, we shouldn't be afraid to dial it back to a logical point and progress further in a new-ish direction.If the purpose of Krampus was (at it's core) to hinder players from simply farming bunnies like crazy, then it's a bit silly for Krampus to blindly steal anything he can from chests. Also, unless you know Krampus lore, the whole thing makes little sense in a game where there's no explained backstory or reasoning. In my proposal, Krampus steals meat. He takes what you've been hording and leaves with it. This takes care of the problem where players had abandoned farming in favor of rabbit holes. Also, the story is meant to make a little more sense. Here's Krampus (or whatever his name is changed to), here's his meat stash, here we see him taking the meat from your chest and swiping it while leaving the rest of your items intact. You don't need to wikipedia this monster to figure out "Oh! It's cuz I was... bad... for... I guess hurting animals? So then he stole my things? Maybe to give to santa to give to little children? Idk."Like I said... the Christmas theme was fun, but in the end, I think it's what makes Krampus feel flimsy and awkward. I think Klei can create something far more interesting than Krampus or what I proposed. I simply wanted to pitch something I felt made more sense.

[Sliver]

One thing I would like to add is that Krampus should not punish the player for eating meat. The game has an issue with staying in your base and farming being by-far the best way to survive. Having Krampus punish for eating meat just puts another point for staying in your base and farming.And one of the biggest problems with Krampus is that he steals. I, personally, like it when things are stolen from me in a game. But Kevin is right, players have a tendency to get really pissed off when something is stolen from them, and it can actually ruin the game for a lot of people. I propose that you change him completely, allow me to spit-ball for a second. Sometimes in the world you can find an object (just going to call it a trinket for now), and this trinket does something for you. Either it makes you faster or deal more damage, having it on your person generally makes you better. But as it turns out, this Trinket is owned by a powerful force who will track you down. His name is Krampus, and he has both ranged and melee attacks. He has the vitality of a treeguard, with the speed of a spider. He's tough to take on in a fight, but he always finds a way to get away right before death. He'll keep on you, every few days, until you right what is wrong and return what is not yours.This is just off the top of my head. It's pretty good, actually...To the scripts folder!

[Silvi]

The problem with stealing is that it's ok as long as it steals resources that are just some work to get. But if finite resources get stolen, gamers will get pissed. Personally I don't like that.However, I like the idea of naughtiness prevailing, maybe just make the naughtiness rise by smaller values. And make smacking beehives give a lot of naughtiness. But the issue I can see there is that some players may say 'to hell with this' at that and just start farming (no other ingredients, just vegetables).

[Saturnine]

Haha can someone explain to me why we want to keep "naughtiness" when the idea of "being punished" is so off-putting? :PAlso, nobody ever says "I don't like optimus pine, so I don't use wood." Why does Krampus generate that reaction?What's annoying to me is losing random items. If meat is fairly plentiful anyway, and it's a highly renewable resource, I see it being much less of a rage-quit issue.Also, in response to Sliver, I wanted to keep as much of the original Krampus design as I could, and work in the bag and all that, because I think Klei would be much more open to ideas that don't require a remake of art and animation they've already created. Shrug. Just wanted to hold as true to the original as I could. But I do like your idea as an idea for a different creature altogether.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Saturnine

[fear_town]

What's annoying to me is losing random items. If meat is fairly plentiful anyway, and it's a highly renewable resource, I see it being much less of a rage-quit issue.

From what I understand Krampus was a way to prevent people having massive stockpiles.. I don't know what he turned into.. I suppose we could lose Krampus altogether with spoilage and what not.. I wouldn't be for it.. But.. meh.. Not my call really..

[Saturnine]

The issue was that people were abandoning farming in favor of simply killing bunnies. Klei made bunnies run away when nearby bunnies are slain to also mitigate this. That's why naughtiness comes from killing animals. Because meat is so much better than veggies for hunger, and meat requires no prereq items (manure, grass, etc) to be generated.Therefor, you kill animals for meat, it angers krampus, he comes to mess up your stuff.

[wdfoster]

Krampus doesn't really fit in the game if you ask me.Its purpose does, but the way it looks? No.

[Kittiko]

Krampus doesn't really fit in the game if you ask me.Its purpose does, but the way it looks? No.

Wortox would like a word with you.http://goo.gl/s7DvW

[wdfoster]

Wortox would like a word with you.http://goo.gl/s7DvW

Ok, I stand corrected.Still seems kind of out-of-place though. Maybe a little more background in the final product will sell it to me.

[Snob]

Its purpose does, but the way it looks? No.

His design quite unique

Unlike those little trick-or-treats

And thus they try to compete

But Krampus and his sack is neat

Anyway, I think there should be a different way to gain the Krampus Sack. The Naughtiness rating is simply broken, there is no benefit of having a low percentage. Instead, I wish there was a new mechanic, the opposite of the Naughtiness rating.

The Niceness rating.

I know it sounds pretty cheesy, but I think that Krampus shouldn't "drop" his sack, instead he should give it to nice players. Things that you can do to become "nice"; is to build pig houses, offer goods to the Pig King, hatching and raising a Smallbird, or nice things like that.

[Palpetinus]

His design quite unique

Unlike those little trick-or-treats

And thus they try to compete

But Krampus and his sack is neat

Anyway, I think there should be a different way to gain the Krampus Sack. The Naughtiness rating is simply broken, there is no benefit of having a low percentage. Instead, I wish there was a new mechanic, the opposite of the Naughtiness rating.

The Niceness rating.

I know it sounds pretty cheesy, but I think that Krampus shouldn't "drop" his sack, instead he should give it to nice players. Things that you can do to become "nice"; is to build pig houses, offer goods to the Pig King, hatching and raising a Smallbird, or nice things like that.

This could work well with my awsome uber leet idea!

Self-promotion, ho!

[Kittiko]

I know it sounds pretty cheesy, but I think that Krampus shouldn't "drop" his sack, instead he should give it to nice players. Things that you can do to become "nice"; is to build pig houses, offer goods to the Pig King, hatching and raising a Smallbird, or nice things like that.

I agree, Krampus should give you a sack if you can raise a smallbird to a tallbird.

It should also rain gold and tentacle spikes if you can keep that smallbird alive all the way to a tallbird.

[Palpetinus]

I agree, Krampus should give you a sack if you can raise a smallbird to a tallbird.

It should also rain gold and tentacle spikes if you can keep that smallbird alive all the way to a tallbird.

Krampus: You raised that bird well! *more talk about how awsome you are*... HERE! HAVE A MURDEROUS WEAPON SO YOU CAN SLAY THINGS!"

[Kittiko]

Krampus: You raised that bird well! *more talk about how awsome you are*... HERE! HAVE A MURDEROUS WEAPON SO YOU CAN SLAY THINGS!"

Best idea ever.

[Saturnine]

O.o This is getting a little de-railed.My hope was that this thread would have a greater variety of ideas from you guys that would address the problems you have with the way Krampus currently is. We have some interesting ideas so far. Some more radical in their changes than others....but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that raising smallbirds to tallbirds and being showered with gold and weapons may not be the best solution for meat-hoarding, a lackluster monster, the concept of naughtiness/player aversion to being punished, etc.I'd really like to see more posts like Kittiko's original post, or Sliver's, Silvi's, or Snob's. Posts that constructively add to the conversation, because I'd really love to see Klei get in on this thread.

[fear_town]

Doesn't the teenbird try to murder you when it becomes an adult?

[Palpetinus]

O.o This is getting a little de-railed.My hope was that this thread would have a greater variety of ideas from you guys that would address the problems you have with the way Krampus currently is. We have some interesting ideas so far. Some more radical in their changes than others....but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that raising smallbirds to tallbirds and being showered with gold and weapons may not be the best solution for meat-hoarding, a lackluster monster, the concept of naughtiness/player aversion to being punished, etc.I'd really like to see more posts like Kittiko's original post, or Sliver's, Silvi's, or Snob's. Posts that constructively add to the conversation, because I'd really love to see Klei get in on this thread.

HA! You seem to be new here! Derailing is this forum's speciality!He should come more often. I slay 4-5 pigs every day, still no krampus.Contains swearword:

Seems like Krampus is a, *puts on sunglasses* Krampussy! YEEEEAH!

[Snob]

Doesn't the teenbird try to murder you when it becomes an adult?

Kevin stated the process of a teenbird attacking the player is a metaphor; parents in real life have to deal with their grown children causing trouble.

[Silvi]

HA! You seem to be new here! Derailing is this forum's speciality!He should come more often. I slay 4-5 pigs every day, still no krampus.Contains swearword:

Seems like Krampus is a, *puts on sunglasses* Krampussy! YEEEEAH!

*dies of terrible reference* loland yeah, I will leave this here:

on topic: I like the idea of buffing up the Krampus and I'd like to see him appear more often. He NEVER appears unless I really go on a need-bacon-now-in-hundreds mission. (I don't kill bunnies for it. I'm too softie)

[Palpetinus]

*dies of terrible reference* loland yeah, I will leave this here:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3564[/ATTACH]

on topic: I like the idea of buffing up the Krampus and I'd like to see him appear more often. He NEVER appears unless I really go on a need-bacon-now-in-hundreds mission. (I don't kill bunnies for it. I'm too softie)What's wrong with my terrible reference D:I summoned krampus once on purpose with birds, back when you could abuse that seed-bird thing. Since then, i never saw him ever again.

[Silvi]

What's wrong with my terrible reference D:I summoned krampus once on purpose with birds, back when you could abuse that seed-bird thing. Since then, i never saw him ever again.

That reference is *puts on sunglasses* overused. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.....I went there.

I saw him 2 days ago but I had to kill all the pigs on my map plus all the birds from cages. He didn't drop the bag. *sigh*