Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Wondering if it is possible to cool a constant stream of 1Kg/s 85C water (geyser basically) using just AETN and 10 or less Weezeworts down to 20c or less? Im able to do it with constant 100-200g/s but I thought id ask the pros. Thanks. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 I think there's a possibility you could cool it down some, but I think 20c is a bit of a stretch. Water holds a LOT of thermal energy, and an AETN only cools 400 watts of heat energy. Q = mc*delta-T --> 1000g * 4.179 * 65c = 271635 Joule of heat energy that needs to be transferred. A watt = 1 Joule/s. So.. you're wanting to transfer 272000 J/s with a device that only cools 400 J/s. If you start with cold enough hydrogen, you'll be able to do it for a short time, but that geyser will quickly overwhelm your cooling power. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 Right it does overwhelm it. However 100g/s seems to find a near freeizng equilibrium (and likely higher indefinitely). How is 100g/s stable? Seems like that would also be far more than 400j worth of water needing to be cooled, how are you doing your math? How can I find the max -400w can sustain when given a C variable? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICKA Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Doesn't the heat output of buildings have a multiplier? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabrute Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 22 minutes ago, Megouski said: How can I find the max -400w can sustain when given a C variable? 400/4.179=95.7 so theoretically your 100g/s should overwhelm the machine...... very very slowly Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Well, first off.. I can't remember the building multiplier, so I'm not using it. I also can not remember the exact numbers for wheezewarts in hydrogen. So, lets assume the building multiplier is somewhere around 10. Lets also assume that your wheezewarts + AETN can handle 1000 watts of cooling power. With the multiplier, that's 10k J/s. Assuming you want to cool the water to 20c, the equation would be Q/(c * delta-T) = m or 10000/(4.179 * 65) = 36.81g/s that can be cooled indefinitely. 1 minute ago, Kabrute said: 400/4.179=95.7 so theoretically your 100g/s should overwhelm the machine...... very very slowly That's 95.7g/s for a 1 degree C temperature change. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 So there must be some variable that is missing here. See image below. To make sure it wasnt something with the cold hydrogen, I filled the cooling area with 27c 2Kg hydrogen. The water coming in is 86.6c, the pw is set to 1.5c. I let it run for a few cycles and the pw would slowly heat to 1.5c<, the doors would shut and it would fall back down under 1.499 and the doors would open. The hydrogen was slowly catching up (cooling more than heating). Meaning this could probably handle 300g/s. So why is this stable and how can I triple that? I'm not asking for much! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 So testing this with the doors shut so the heat is constantly transferring, i went from 250g/s slowly to 265g/s, and the tempshift plate stayed the same, but more notibly the hydrogen temp under it went from about 0.0650~ to 0.0731 over 2-3 cycles and they stayed between 0.0730-34 for the next 3 cycles Adding 10g/s more and the change is below after several cycles of no further temp rising. Equilibrium is maintaining By the way the hydrogen coming into the system is 46.8c, Looks like adding 5g/s more to 280g/s begins into the start of the steep equilibrium curve. The system starts a very slow decline. this is after 3 cycles 5 cycles 10 cycles this is stabilizing. Adding more g/s from here will likely enter cascade failure. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Polluted water has a specific heat capacity of 6.0. Your pool is very large and as its already near temperature, its going to take a long time to warm up. Your AETN will eventually start falling behind, but because the polluted water can hold a tremendous amount of heat energy (compared to the rate of water flow) its going to take a long time. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 It does take more time of course to warm/cool, but not that long. This is represented by the stability in temp of the gas above. The change happens gradually yes, but stabilizes. I can visibly see it correcting itself to the new numbers then stopping for several cycles at a certain range and staying there. One can think maybe that will change in 100 cycles, but why should it? Nothing different is entering the system that is going to effect the stability. It would not stabilize like that then start to rise randomly again. Here is 20 more cycles. This is not changing anymore, and fluctuates between 874 and 878. This is 280g/s. I would expect if the AETN could only handle 100g/s (or much less as you were eluding) this would be heating up. Its not heating up at all? It was the first three cycles when i went from 275->280g/s (see above) and now it has stopped. I added 2g/s for giggles. Here it is after 30 more cycles (282g/s total) This was stable between 894-897 for 27 of the cycles. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 When the doors are open, your hydrogen cools down. When they're closed, it heats up and the polluted water cools down. Each time they open and close, they'll stay closed slightly longer and open slightly shorter. Eventually they'll stay closed continually and your hydrogen will start to warm up. Checking the hydrogen temperature for stability doesn't mean anything UNLESS you also take into account the time the doors are open and closed. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 No, as I said above I have the doors closed for all of this to maintain consistency. There is no change in the system Ill upload a video in a min.. Please excuse my soft rock.!! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 32 minutes ago, Megouski said: No, as I said above I have the doors closed for all of this to maintain consistency. There is no change in the system When I was writing the post, you hadn't made your follow up posts with teh doors closed. I still think the large pool of PW is keeping things stable for the moment -- the amount of water coming in hot is trivial compared to the amount of PW you have in your cooling pool. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 58 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: When I was writing the post, you hadn't made your follow up posts with teh doors closed. I still think the large pool of PW is keeping things stable for the moment -- the amount of water coming in hot is trivial compared to the amount of PW you have in your cooling pool. The pw size doesn't matter. Again, when I change the flow from 280 to 282 i see the change in temps happen and then stabilize within 3 cycles. They stabilize over many (30-50) cycles after this change. Stabilization doesn't happen because its just heating up slower, they happen because of equilibrium in a system. I could let this run for 1000 cycles and it would not matter because what is going into the system is constant. Thermodynamics in this game (and real life) dont work that way. They don't just change randomly when given a consistent input, they correct when given a new input, and stabilize a new outcome. A new change would never start up again unless I changed another part of the system. Also temps go down when i lower the water input to 275. This would never happen to a system slowly losing a battle to keep its cool. There is more to the AETN cooling than we thought. How does it work? Its obviously cooling more water forever than those formulas tell so there has to be more to it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorsDux Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Maybe it cools 1000w or so instead of the given 400. Btw, never cool geyser water, use it up at 98c in electrolizers and carbon skimmers, toilets and sinks, and try to cool the 40c sieve water. Same goes for pwwater. Try to use them as coolant and bring their temp to 120c before sieveing it to 40c. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
he77789 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 IIRC the AETN cooling have a hidden x200 multiplier so it is actually 400x200=80000W=80kW Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabrute Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 not toilets or sinks because those convert at temp and that would make a lot of heat..... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhailRaptor Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Lavatories and Sinks are also made from metals, which will re-radiate any heat they absorb from their held contents while idle, which if you're not paying attention can cause a run-away heating problem in your base. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excors Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 From my experiments in this bug report, the AETN appears to be buggy after you first save/load a game. It doesn't seem to be compatible with any kind of laws of thermodynamics, so trying to understand its behaviour is futile. Even without those bugs, I don't believe it's meant to be 400W. In the code it's configured with ExhaustKilowattsWhenActive = -16, SelfHeatKilowattsWhenActive = -64. The Exhaust is applied directly to the surrounding air (assuming it's >1.5kg), and SelfHeat is applied to the building itself (which will then exchange with the surrounding air). I think the numbers are being correctly processed as kW, not W, so it should be 80kW of cooling. The "400W" comes from seemingly buggy conversions in the UI code - multiplying by 5 for no obvious reason, then mistakenly saying "W" instead of "kW". Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorsDux Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 3 hours ago, PhailRaptor said: Lavatories and Sinks are also made from metals, which will re-radiate any heat they absorb from their held contents while idle, which if you're not paying attention can cause a run-away heating problem in your base. Yes thats true. To have simpler liquid piping i use hot water and cool the (gold) toilettries by other means, but normally sieved water should be better for them. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 6 hours ago, MorsDux said: Maybe it cools 1000w or so instead of the given 400. Btw, never cool geyser water, use it up at 98c in electrolizers and carbon skimmers, toilets and sinks, and try to cool the 40c sieve water. Same goes for pwwater. Try to use them as coolant and bring their temp to 120c before sieveing it to 40c. I might do that, but I might just pipe the water through the cold biome down to 30c or so and then through the AETN system. I just wanted to control everything so it was all passive. Piping through the cold biome means i risk pipe damage or a heating cold biome and id like to minimize that. I could toss wheezewarts at it but i dont think it would be nearly enough 6 hours ago, he77789 said: IIRC the AETN cooling have a hidden x200 multiplier so it is actually 400x200=80000W=80kW 2 hours ago, Excors said: From my experiments in this bug report, the AETN appears to be buggy after you first save/load a game. It doesn't seem to be compatible with any kind of laws of thermodynamics, so trying to understand its behaviour is futile. Even without those bugs, I don't believe it's meant to be 400W. In the code it's configured with ExhaustKilowattsWhenActive = -16, SelfHeatKilowattsWhenActive = -64. The Exhaust is applied directly to the surrounding air (assuming it's >1.5kg), and SelfHeat is applied to the building itself (which will then exchange with the surrounding air). I think the numbers are being correctly processed as kW, not W, so it should be 80kW of cooling. The "400W" comes from seemingly buggy conversions in the UI code - multiplying by 5 for no obvious reason, then mistakenly saying "W" instead of "kW". This sounds far more correct. Wow actual -400w would be almost worthless unless it was overclockable somehow depending on what you put into it/could upgrade it. Using KittenIsAGeek math this probably outcomes to around what g/s im seeing. Im seeing stability of at least 275g/s @ 86.8c down to 1.5c. Cooling of 85.3c = 98Kw cooling? Sounds like the AETN is buggy as you say Assuming 100Kw (282 was also stable) If I wanted to cool it to 20c instead of 1.5c what would my max flowrate be .. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 So I set the system to do 20c water and flow to 350 and that should be stable given the above. After 3~ cycles of righting itself (after I set the pwater to 20c manually to speed this up) hydrogen here/plate stabilized at 19.3c for 10+ cycles. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Yeah, if its 80kW of cooling, that makes a lot more sense. 80000 / (65 * 4.179 ) = 294g/s. Or .. 80000 / (60 * 4.179) = 319g/s. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarian Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Unfortunately this takes advantage of Klei's lack of properly dealing with heat, but you can do this: - 3x Aquatuner in your 85C water reservoir - Pass the water to a Sieve (polluted or non-polluted, works either way) - Water comes out of the Sieve at 40C - 40C water goes through 3x Aquatuner - Water comes out at -1.6C Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megouski Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said: Yeah, if its 80kW of cooling, that makes a lot more sense. 80000 / (65 * 4.179 ) = 294g/s. Or .. 80000 / (60 * 4.179) = 319g/s. Sounds right to me. 5 minutes ago, Xarian said: Unfortunately this takes advantage of Klei's lack of properly dealing with heat, but you can do this: - 3x Aquatuner in your 85C water reservoir - Pass the water to a Sieve (polluted or non-polluted, works either way) - Water comes out of the Sieve at 40C - 40C water goes through 3x Aquatuner - Water comes out at -1.6C Normal water comes out of a sieve at 40c too?? How have they not patched the hell out of this? Welp.. im using that. at 40c i can pump over 1kgs and get down to 17c. From there if I really need 1c i think a passive wheezwart setup can handle enough flowrate to supply a lot. AETN CALC water multi 4.179 temp income 40.0 temp desire 17 flow 282 water j/s 27105 AETN j/s 100000 j/s flow diff 72895 max stable flow 1040 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93227-possible-with-just-an-aetn/#findComment-1060854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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