+600Watt selfcooled liquid-lock - electrolyzer

[Carnis]

Re-implementing this: 

Gas overview:

Spoiler

Power overlay:

Spoiler

Automation overlay:

Spoiler

After setting up (small top hydrogen bubble, small bottom oxygen bubble), 50grams of oil, 50 grams of water.. Lots of wire..

You get exactly 2x 888g oxygen + 2x 112g hydrogen, no deleted packets, no slipped packets.

This nets you 224g x 800 W = 1792 Watts constant.. which you can run on 2 separate power networks. First one runs the gaspumps/lyzer. 2nd one can either run the coolant loop or be used as power source in base.

First network consumes:

120 + 120 = 240W for 2 electrolyzers.

Exactly 960 watts of power for gaspumps, consisting of:

2 constantly running oxygen pumps for 1000g/s

2 oxygen pumps timed to run 39seconds, then idle 11 seconds with a buffer 39s - buffer 11s - not logic

1 hydrogen pump set to run at > 750g pressure + 15second buffer (to avoid short inefficient bursts of pumping). This pump will run exactly 44% of the time (to consume 224g/s), which is the opposite to the timed oxygen pumps that run at 78% of the time. This sums up to 960w exact.

 

Since an aquatuner + pump consume 1440watts, your excess 592 watts can run it around 40% of the time. When I stopped the simulation this 600watts was enough to still cool the polluted water at 13 degrees and the cooled oxygen was coming out at 16-19 degrees.

 

Ive not gotten anywhere near this efficiency with any gasbubble / gravity based electrolyzers.

 

[Lifegrow]

Saddens me that this has become a "focal build" for people to tinker with recently.

This is the dumbest, dirtiest - not to mention one of the oldest exploits in the game.

Do everyone a favour and hide the thread - it's already well documented and certainly shouldn't be a build that new players should aspire to implement.

[Carnis]

Grow up

[Kabrute]

Should they be building the glitch monster steam turbine instead?  Personally I agree with ya LG but at the same time freedom of expression and all that limits me to simply saying, Please tag this as another glitch/exploitation

[Carnis]

Which part is the exploit, though?

[Le0n1des]

1 minute ago, Carnis said:

Which part is the exploit, though?

The one avoiding overpressure via submerging in 2 liquids

[Carnis]

Yes, while that may be.. is there a viable electrolyzer build that avoids hydrogen deletion without this 'exploit'?

If there is no hydrogen deletion, all electrolyzers would work with a net positive power consumption.

I'm going to test If one can make it with a lyzer in 50% hydrogen / 50% oxygen and 1hydro pump + 2x O2. If you add a gas shutoff filter at 10w on the first O2 pump, this too might work out ok.

I'm honestly not terribly thrilled to liquid lock lyzers as the setup on survival is tricky to setup.

 

New cosmic update seems to kill doorpumps, or at least make them slower (mech doors without power).

[BlueLance]

Considering how klei have recently bashed the Drip Cooling mechanic, and now they have stopped the free door compression system, I wont be surprised if this sorta of thing goes next.

I cannot say if mines deletes hydrogen, but my oxygen set up is self powering, with net gain and powers most of the stuff in my base. Provides more power if there are more dupes to keep up with the oxygen generation. I don't cool it though but considering how my hydrogen pipe backs up I could probably run an aquatuner as well to cool a liquid which cools the oxygen. 

[Lifegrow]

7 hours ago, Carnis said:

Yes, while that may be.. is there a viable electrolyzer build that avoids hydrogen deletion without this 'exploit'?

If there is no hydrogen deletion, all electrolyzers would work with a net positive power consumption.

I'm going to test If one can make it with a lyzer in 50% hydrogen / 50% oxygen and 1hydro pump + 2x O2. If you add a gas shutoff filter at 10w on the first O2 pump, this too might work out ok.

I'm honestly not terribly thrilled to liquid lock lyzers as the setup on survival is tricky to setup.

 

New cosmic update seems to kill doorpumps, or at least make them slower (mech doors without power).

2 pumps per electrolyzer will get you near perfect output ratios, providing you maintain a low atmospheric pressure.

The couple of grams that you'd lose are negligible and a net gain is easily achievable with even the most brainless of builds.

Not trying to provoke you - but seriously, do some reading on the forums or a couple of google searches. There are dozens of posts about self sufficient electrolyzers - it really isn't difficult in the slightest.

[Carnis]

1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

2 pumps per electrolyzer will get you near perfect output ratios, providing you maintain a low atmospheric pressure.

The couple of grams that you'd lose are negligible and a net gain is easily achievable with even the most brainless of builds.

Not trying to provoke you - but seriously, do some reading on the forums or a couple of google searches. There are dozens of posts about self sufficient electrolyzers - it really isn't difficult in the slightest.

Ive built more than a few, that are just barely net positive. I'll do some more testing. But liquidlocking at least is a laborintensive means to 100% efficiency.

[pnambic]

Why are people so keen on avoiding electrolyzer overpressure? An overpressurized electrolyzer doesn't consume anything, neither water nor electricity. Or did that change in Cosmic?

Anyway, if it didn't change, then once you drop that particular requirement, it's extremely easy to set these things up to produce a healthy power surplus. The module below (adapted from Saturnus' SPOM-extension) delivers 1000g/s O2 and 126g/s H2 using 1126g/s H2O and 702W of power (that includes the water pump!). Untuned H2 generators produce 800W from 100g/s of H2, so you end up with a surplus of over 300W; 810W if you can keep them tuned.

[Hokimeetz]

1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

2 pumps per electrolyzer will get you near perfect output ratios, providing you maintain a low atmospheric pressure.

if you run this with a default gas filter you can also run a semi-opened setupup made out of a single pump (valve for hydrogen control) and a door compressor build to pull out oxygen instead. with the recent changes in the preview both require the same amount of power and therefore this is still a viable alternative for supplying the vicinity. if you throw in 10W for an automation based gas filter you can also filter the hydrogen just fine.

not saying that this is a better solution. simply providing another option.

[Carnis]

1 hour ago, pnambic said:

Why are people so keen on avoiding electrolyzer overpressure? An overpressurized electrolyzer doesn't consume anything, neither water nor electricity. Or did that change in Cosmic?

Anyway, if it didn't change, then once you drop that particular requirement, it's extremely easy to set these things up to produce a healthy power surplus. The module below (adapted from Saturnus' SPOM-extension) delivers 1000g/s O2 and 126g/s H2 using 1126g/s H2O and 702W of power (that includes the water pump!). Untuned H2 generators produce 800W from 100g/s of H2, so you end up with a surplus of over 300W; 810W if you can keep them tuned.

Your net positive energy comes from the tuneup. Your electrolyzer is an alteration of the electrolyzer I already have setup. Only difference is Ive a pWater tank replacing those wheeze. Now running a cooling pump consumed 240watts, and the overpressured electrolyzer system is unable provide that power with 4 O2 pumps, theoretically we should produce More than 400g h/sec, but gas deletion makes it less.

[pnambic]

24 minutes ago, Carnis said:

Your net positive energy comes from the tuneup. 

No. I get about 300W without tuning and 800W tuned. The only things running continuously in this setup are the O2 pumps, the rest is drawing power intermittently. Specifically:

• two O2 pumps: 480W (480W at 100% duty cycle)
• two Electrolyzers: 135W (240W at 56% duty cycle, generating 1000g/s O2 out of 1776g/s)
• one H2 pump: 60W (240W at 25% duty cycle, moving 126g/s with 500g/s capacity)
• one H2O pump: 27W (240W at 11% duty cycle, moving 1126g/s with 10000g/s capacity)

That's 702W total usage for 126g/s H2, which can be burned for 1009W using two H2 generators, untuned, or 1513W tuned.

[Lifegrow]

1 hour ago, Hokimeetz said:

if you run this with a default gas filter you can also run a semi-opened setupup made out of a single pump (valve for hydrogen control) and a door compressor build to pull out oxygen instead. with the recent changes in the preview both require the same amount of power and therefore this is still a viable alternative for supplying the vicinity. if you throw in 10W for an automation based gas filter you can also filter the hydrogen just fine.

not saying that this is a better solution. simply providing another option.

Mechanical filter works wonders. For you sadists that are trying to get every little drop of power out of your systems : 

[Carnis]

49 minutes ago, pnambic said:

No. I get about 300W without tuning and 800W tuned. The only things running continuously in this setup are the O2 pumps, the rest is drawing power intermittently. Specifically:

• two O2 pumps: 480W (480W at 100% duty cycle)
• two Electrolyzers: 135W (240W at 56% duty cycle, generating 1000g/s O2 out of 1776g/s)
• one H2 pump: 60W (240W at 25% duty cycle, moving 126g/s with 500g/s capacity)
• one H2O pump: 27W (240W at 11% duty cycle, moving 1126g/s with 10000g/s capacity)

That's 702W total usage for 126g/s H2, which can be burned for 1009W using two H2 generators, untuned, or 1513W tuned.

Ive ran that same electrolyzer several times, whenever I make it smaller, the h2 starts to drop into the O2 pumps (not a huge issue now with 10Watt filter), whenever I make it bigger, we get overpressure and gas packets get killed.

Ive never got it (same exact build even) to work reliably over several cycles.

I end up with energy neutral or slightly energy losing setup (when the O2 packets go below 300grams, we start to get problems), eg:

 

[pnambic]

I've run the setup as shown in several bases, and I've powered small bases off the surplus before setting up a stable source of refined metal for tuning, so I'm pretty positive that it works as calculated. The O2 packet size does not vary in my experience, I get a steady 1000g/s output, and I haven't seen significant H2 deletion. Maybe I'm just extremely lucky?

Looking at your screenshot, one possible explanation might be some sort of interference between the electrolyzers, or "turbulence" (for lack of a better term) due to the greater size of the chambers? The pressure gradient in my setup looks less severe, for one thing:

The base this is in is running mostly on natural gas by now. I'll try to get some empirical data on the exact amount of H2 that comes out of it, just to make sure I'm not fooling myself here.

(Also, for what it's worth, here's a snapshot of the gas piping, showing the uniformity of the output. These are all 1000g packets.)

Spoiler

 

[Kabrute]

As LG said. I've run 2 pump spots with mech filter. Always over unity

[0xFADE]

Letting excess oxygen fall out the bottom saves even more power.

Double mechanical filter helps even more.

[avc15]

9 hours ago, Carnis said:

Ive built more than a few, that are just barely net positive. I'll do some more testing. 

still massively power-positive on any open air system that cools o2 in place instead of pumping it away for cooling. Very little H2 gets deleted, you just can't pull maximum capacity from your electrolyzers. IE, you just build twice as many and spread them around your base. Problem solved.

In this new update, try building a few extra electrolyzers that just vent their oxygen chamber into space anytime it gets over 700g pressure... substantial extra power that uses only water as fuel. Used to be you had to store that O2 somewhere, delete it on purpose with door compressors, or consume it.

I bet one of the new tuning passes they end up either reducing the amount of hydrogen that electrolyzers give off, boosting the amount of hydrogen the generator takes per joule output, or something similar.

[KittenIsAGeek]

4 minutes ago, avc15 said:

I bet one of the new tuning passes they end up either reducing the amount of hydrogen that electrolyzers give off, boosting the amount of hydrogen the generator takes per joule output, or something similar.

You're forgetting that there's a limiting factor: Water.  Yes, there are geysers and such, so water isn't a finite resource -- but there will be a limit to how much water you DO have available for turning in to power.

[avc15]

4 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

You're forgetting that there's a limiting factor: Water.  Yes, there are geysers and such, so water isn't a finite resource -- but there will be a limit to how much water you DO have available for turning in to power.

that's true but there are plenty of ways to get more water that most players are overlooking at this time.

Petroleum generation for instance is water positive, even when you're pumping water into the oil wells. Even though petrol itself is way less power dense than NG, how much can you recover by piping the extra water into some electrolyzers? How much power do you save not needing to cool down NG from 700C? (exact temp? memory is failing)

If you happen to have an infected PO2 vent, this can be used to offset a tremendous amount of water usage.

Among a handful of others.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, avc15 said:

that's true but there are plenty of ways to get more water that most players are overlooking at this time.

The petroleum loop for instance is water positive, even when you're pumping water into the oil wells.

If you happen to have a PO2 vent, this can be used to offset a tremendous amount of water usage.

Among a handful of others.

The petroleum loop is only positive if you're not using the oil refinery to convert crude into petrol.  Though, with the glass forge, this did become easier to do.

[avc15]

Baking petroleum is pretty straightforward, not nearly as complex as boiling NG efficiently. (Bottleinator is simple and easy but not very efficient)

[SackMaggie]

11 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Mechanical filter works wonders. For you sadists that are trying to get every little drop of power out of your systems : 

My base using this !