Good geyser Cooling

[TheExceed]

Just now, avc15 said:

more efficient for electrolyzer input, yeah. Also closer to boiling, I'm still experimenting with heat recovery and steam turbines. It's not a simple puzzle to solve, but coming along.

I don't really get 99C water, closest I've achieved without letting the vent overpressure at all is a bit above 96C. It probably takes a very long time to stabilize though.

How is warmer water more efficient for an electrolyzer though? And as far as i have seen, steam turbines arent worth it unless you get some 20Kg/s 500C geyser.

[avc15]

1 hour ago, TheExceed said:

How is warmer water more efficient for an electrolyzer though? And as far as i have seen, steam turbines arent worth it unless you get some 20Kg/s 500C geyser.

Not every good & efficient design for the steam turbine has been demoed yet. Challenge accepted.

Also there's an interesting thing about the steam turbine, a well designed power plant will consume heat overall rather than exhausting it all over. Other sustainable power sources (crude boiled to NG for instance) produce a LOT of waste heat, even with perfect heat recovery.

 

So basically, why not, the thing's there, I'm building systems that I find interesting whenever I'm not fending off imminent colony failure.

 

As to electrolyzers, if you put in 99c water, the oxygen is still coming out at 70c. Cooling the water is just wasteful, that's why 99c is optimal. Not like you're going to purposefully heat it up or anything, just overcooling is wasteful.

 

[TheExceed]

27 minutes ago, avc15 said:

Not every good & efficient design for the steam turbine has been demoed yet. Challenge accepted.

Also there's an interesting thing about the steam turbine, a well designed power plant will consume heat overall rather than exhausting it all over. Other sustainable power sources (crude boiled to NG for instance) produce a LOT of waste heat, even with perfect heat recovery.

 

So basically, why not, the thing's there, I'm building systems that I find interesting whenever I'm not fending off imminent colony failure.

 

As to electrolyzers, if you put in 99c water, the oxygen is still coming out at 70c. Cooling the water is just wasteful, that's why 99c is optimal. Not like you're going to purposefully heat it up or anything, just overcooling is wasteful.

 

I mean you have to cool it for crops.

[avc15]

Of course you do. Electrolyzing cold water is a bit like opening your front door with the a/c running, though. Efficiency starts to matter a few hundred cycles in.

[Neotuck]

24 minutes ago, TheExceed said:

I mean you have to cool it for crops.

cooling for crops isn't too hard. 

I take 90C water run it though a carbon skimmer > water sieve to get it to 40C 

then an aqua tuner brings that down so it safe for Bristle Blossoms 

A second aqua tuner plus wheezewarts and/or AETN can cool it for Sleet Wheat

[BlueLance]

17 hours ago, TheExceed said:

How is warmer water more efficient for an electrolyzer though? And as far as i have seen, steam turbines arent worth it unless you get some 20Kg/s 500C geyser.

No pointing wasting time or energy cooling down water that does not have to be cooled. So if you go and spend all that energy cooling it to 20 degrees just to fire it into an electrolyzer then you have wasted so much energy, which is inefficient. 

Send hot water to electrolyzers to keep the oxygen flowing, and send all the excess water to either be cooled or stored. If you are cooling more than you need to its a loss of energy.

[JonnyMonroe]

17 hours ago, avc15 said:

Also there's an interesting thing about the steam turbine, a well designed power plant will consume heat overall rather than exhausting it all over. Other sustainable power sources (crude boiled to NG for instance) produce a LOT of waste heat, even with perfect heat recovery

NGG and petro power plants can both be set up to delete large amounts of heat. Granted they don't delete as much as a steam turbine, but the steam turbine will only delete heat above about 200c which doesn't offer you any practical options to cool anything other than hot geyser outputs. Also the steam turbines give a relatively low power output. The most volcano rich maps in the game can run maybe 2 steam turbines.

[GrindThisGame]

I run my waste water from bathrooms and nat gas generators through a radiator that sits in a roughly 10x15 room which contains the steam geyser. The polluted water heats up from the steam and the steam turns to fresh water. The heated polluted water heads off to my fertilizer room to be destroyed. You could also send it to a sieve for some nice 40C fresh water. I also have some wheezeworts near the top opening to turn any escaped steam into water. The wheezeworts near the bottom aren't really doing much. There is a single granite tile near the bottom right wheeze. The tiles around the geyser are all abyssalite. This geyser outputs 1651 g/s of steam at 110C. The shiftplate in the back is diamond, pipes are wolframite. The polluted water moves slowly through this so it has a chance increase in temp around 20C. You could make a larger radiator for more steam output. This was thrown together and I didn't really plan it much. You could also use oil and then destroy the heat by making petroleum.

 

[avc15]

18 hours ago, JonnyMonroe said:

NGG and petro power plants can both be set up to delete large amounts of heat. Granted they don't delete as much as a steam turbine, but the steam turbine will only delete heat above about 200c which doesn't offer you any practical options to cool anything other than hot geyser outputs. Also the steam turbines give a relatively low power output. The most volcano rich maps in the game can run maybe 2 steam turbines.

yes you are right that you can delete heat with a NGG or a petro gen just by putting as much heat in the fuel as possible.

let me be more specific about what I'm trying to say: if you're making oil from reservoirs into petro or NG, you're going to have a ton of waste heat to deal with. Now, there's some trickery you can use with exhaust temps but you still gotta cool the fuel enough that it can be pumped. Heat recovery doesn't cut it because the more refined fuel has higher heat capacity.

 

When it comes to sustainable really BIG power plants, steam and oil refining have it.

[Mutineer]

That work for me, the wall on left is Granite, it is week geyser, but just 1 plant cooling constantly in the hydrogen atmosphere at 92C now for 100 cycles.

I plan to deconstruct isolation at front of granite when it will be a bit cooler or I get some heat protection. I believe hydrogen on top accelerates heat dissipation.

[Kasuha]

Here's my solution. The geyser is kind of on the extreme side, 20 kg/s eruption for 192 seconds is hard to keep up with so it uses heat inertia from mass of polluted water.

[JonnyMonroe]

5 hours ago, avc15 said:

yes you are right that you can delete heat with a NGG or a petro gen just by putting as much heat in the fuel as possible.

let me be more specific about what I'm trying to say: if you're making oil from reservoirs into petro or NG, you're going to have a ton of waste heat to deal with. Now, there's some trickery you can use with exhaust temps but you still gotta cool the fuel enough that it can be pumped. Heat recovery doesn't cut it because the more refined fuel has higher heat capacity.

 

When it comes to sustainable really BIG power plants, steam and oil refining have it.

No, you can actually set them up for industrial scale heat deletion. Like, deleting enough heat to keep active volcanos at sub zero temperatures. I've posted builds before showcasing this. I do still use steam turbines in some cases but the vast majority of my cooling is handled by natural gas and petroleum ice production.

 

5 hours ago, avc15 said:

but you still gotta cool the fuel enough that it can be pumped

This is just false. I've been pumping fuel at 200-300c for hundreds of cycles with no issues. The only thing you need to cool is the pump itself. At one point I was pumping fuel at 800c before the system reached equilibrium.

[Kasuha]

16 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

The only thing you need to cool is the pump itself. At one point I was pumping fuel at 800c before the system reached equilibrium.

The usual problem with it is that the pump is in thermal contact only with ambient element around it which is usually the pumped gas. Now, I'm getting some ideas from your statement but first, could you post a screenshot of your design? I'm curious.

[Grimgaw]

42 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

The usual problem with it is that the pump is in thermal contact only with ambient element around it which is usually the pumped gas. Now, I'm getting some ideas from your statement but first, could you post a screenshot of your design? I'm curious.

Gas pumps work when half submerged in liquid.

[Kasuha]

Just now, Grimgaw said:

Gas pumps work when half submerged in liquid.

Nice idea. You still need to cool the liquid but you can indeed pump the gas pretty hot. I wonder how small could it be made.

[Kabrute]

 

It may be possible to "sidestep" having to "cool" the water.

[Stoof]

4 hours ago, Kasuha said:

Here's my solution. The geyser is kind of on the extreme side, 20 kg/s eruption for 192 seconds is hard to keep up with so it uses heat inertia from mass of polluted water.

I've been playing about with a 10 kg/s steam geyser so I can fully imagine how difficult it is to keep a 20 kg/s geyser from from getting over pressurized, though definately a nice problem to have. Does the vacuum in the geyser room work better than some hydrogen?

[Kasuha]

Just now, Stoof said:

I've been playing about with a 10 kg/s steam geyser so I can fully imagine how difficult it is to keep a 20 kg/s geyser from from getting over pressurized, though definately a nice problem to have. Does the vacuum in the geyser room work better than some hydrogen?

It stops heat exchange with leftover water when the geyser stops erupting. So I'm saving a bit on cooling the condenser again between eruptions.

I still have a problem that condensed water as it falls down has way too much contact with the metal and tempshift plates and cools down unnecessarily. I tested a variant with just metal plates at the bottom of the polluted water pool and one row of tempshift plates below it to further reduce the contact but then the geyser started going over pressure (even though it produces 20 kg/s, it goes over pressure at 5 kg/tile). So I rebuilt the wings again, though two tiles shorter. That works so far, will see later through the active period as the pool is getting warmer with each eruption. I might perhaps try to make it larger

[JonnyMonroe]

7 hours ago, Kasuha said:

Nice idea. You still need to cool the liquid but you can indeed pump the gas pretty hot. I wonder how small could it be made.

I'm at work right now but I'll post some when I get home. The design can be made fairly small and the amount of cooling you need depends on how effectively you can throttle the incoming gas (I use doors and atmosphere sensors to do this). Basically you use the half submerged trick and also keep the incoming gas a bit below 500g/s. The game seems to process machine operation before thermal transfers in each tick, so a pump running at the same rate as the incoming gas will always be in vacuum if the gas is coming from the left and never draws heat from the gas.

The easiest way to regulate the incoming gas when cooking of course is to use a valve to regulate the how much you cook per second.

[JonnyMonroe]

Ok, back now. Here's a few examples from my current seed. Some of these were made in debug mode but there's nothing complex about them that would make it difficult to build in normal play;

This one is pumping gas that's being ejected from a leaky fissure directly onto a hot plate from a nearby volcano. The sensor maintains the pressure around the pump and a conveyor rail of cold diamonds provides cooling. The build is a bit weird because it was my first go and I was experimenting with a few different ideas.

 

This one was made without debug mode and was a temporary setup to supply gas from the magma biome while my volcano reached equilibrium. The cooling isn't as strong since I didn't need much throughput here and I couldn't be arsed to run any real cooling all the way down south. The people down there look at you funny.

 

This last one is my long term gas cooker. The cooling I'm using here is far from enough and I plan to rebuild it but it has the nice benefit of sucking some electricity out of the gas before sending it to natural gas heaven.

 

These examples should give you an idea of how to work. You should always bring the gas in from the left as it's the top-left tile of a gas pump that pulls the gas so you get less risk of heat bleeding in as a result.