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Algae shortage and heat issues - RIP


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On my latest base, I have got further than I ever have before. But now oxygen production has become a problem. Most of my base runs on algae de-oxidisers, but algae is running very low. I've mined out all the algae in reaching distance from my base, there is more but its very far away. I have two slime > algae machines built in an adjacent slime bio, but I can't mine slime fast enough or convert it fast enough to keep up with demand.

I have a couple of electrolyzers in the base, but they produce huge amounts of heat and even keeping those two in check heatwise is difficult. I am guessing the route I need to take is to build more, but then my base will probably overheat, and heat is already a big issue.

Thanks to the forum in my last big thread (https://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/87845-a-bunch-of-things-i-cant-figure-out/?) I have managed to stay on top of heat issues, just, until now. I finally reached some ice biomes and got a few wheezeworts which I've plonked down in a few hotter areas, which has helped. I surrounded my base with abysallite insulation and seperated hot rooms with it too.

But now that I'm converting polluted water to clean water to sustain my base, I think the water is heating up the whole place. I tried using the obvious solution, the thermal aquatuner machine, to cool the water down before it went from my polluted water filtration area (outside my base), into my main water tank (in the base). But the thermal aquatuner immediately overheated and broke, even with two wheezworts placed next to it. I thought about extending the piping system into a nearby ice biome and building the aquatuner there instead, but I suspect that the machine will just heat up the whole area and melt all the ice?

So far I'm just about sustaining the heat levels but if I have to go with electrolyzers the heat will get out of control. My farms are shielded with insulation and so far are staying in working order, at least the mealwood ones. I have a hydro berry farm at the top of my base but it's already too hot up there for them to grow, being close to an electrolyzer which doesn't have any cooling nearby. I think the water coming through the pipes feeding the farm is also contributing to the heat up there, but I'm not sure.

I have seen on here lots of advanced cooling systems, talk of immersing things in water to cool them (doesn't that just flood the machines?), pumping cold gas, and so on. This is all way beyond me, and is where the simulation vs game comes into question. Am I expected to start experimenting with complex ideas like this as a new player? Before I saw all the stuff on this forum, I wouldn't have even thought about actually having to come up with my own manipulation of the game's systems. In normal base management type bases, you find the appropriate building/resource and use that to solve your problem.

Am I missing simpler solutions to my cooling/oxygen problems? If not, maybe the game needs to do a better job of introducing players with only basic scientific knowledge like myself to these concepts - and also guiding us in the right direction about the type of game it evolves into. I load up my game at the moment and stare at my base, with no clue about how to proceed in dealing with my heating and oxygen problems, or even how to avoid them in another run. It's hard enough keeping my base running and dupes alive as it is, I haven't even reached a self-sustaining level where I can sit back and think about longer term issues or more creative solutions to them. Even finding time for my dupes just to construct a room or mine out some precious algae is it hard right now. This may sound like a whinge but more it's an appeal for help and other people's thoughts on the matter. Cheers. 

 

 

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aquatuners don't get flooded as they are meant to be submerged to work, try placing it in a body of polluted water. also you shouldn't need more than 1 or perhaps 2 deoxydizers.  If you have more you are wasting algae.  Place electrolyzers in a closed room with wheezewarts and use air pumps to move your cold O2 to the rest of your base

could you post a screenshot of your base so we know where the problems are?

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Electrolyzers are probably best used in insulated rooms - let the electrolyzer produce hydrogen and oxygen, it will condition itself to about 70 C by its products, scoop the gases, separate hydrogen and oxygen, send hydrogen to hydrogen generator, and only cool down the resulting oxygen. Probably the easiest way is to put some Wheezeworts at where you're releasing the oxygen to the open. Of course you want to send all hot gases through insulated, or better abyssalite pipes. There are many more or less sophisticated setups for that.

Aquatuner does not "create cold", it only displaces heat. So you remove heat from water, but you place it on the aquatuner and subsequently on the liquid you use to cool it. And you still need to get rid of that heat. But it's your choice what you use to cool it, and you can then send the hot liquid to its corresponding machine. If you cool it with clean water, you can send that water to electrolyzer. If it's polluted water, send it to purifier or to fertilizer synthesizer. If it's oil, send it to oil refinery. In all cases, the heat in the liquid will be destroyed by the machine.

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35 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

aquatuners don't get flooded as they are meant to be submerged to work, try placing it in a body of polluted water. also you shouldn't need more than 1 or perhaps 2 deoxydizers.  If you have more you are wasting algae.  Place electrolyzers in a closed room with wheezewarts and use air pumps to move your cold O2 to the rest of your base

could you post a screenshot of your base so we know where the problems are?

Oh, I had no idea about immersing the aquatuners! The game should probably tell you that, I'll suggest it to the devs.

Really only 1 or 2 deoxidisers? Are you serious? I have always had plenty (spread around to avoid max pressure where possible). Whenever I start getting more dupes, or expanding my base, I get insufficent oxygen warnings. So the logical solution is to build another algae deoxidiser or two, which generates more oxygen thus solving the problem. I also usually have a carbon dioxide filter or two (either water or algae based) in areas where cabon dixoide falls to. If you aren't creating oxygen via deoxiders or electrolyisers how are your dupes surviving?

In this current, big, base I have ten or more deoxiders spread around it, plus two electrolyzers and some carbon dioxide filters of both types. That's for 15 dupes. I'll post some screenshots later on. 

So for electrolyzers you are seperating them, cooling the hot air they are producing and then pumping it out to where it needs to go? Makes sense. I should be able to do that now I have access to a few wheezeworts. It's just unituitive for a new player to think that way - your first instinct is to place a new oxygen machine within the base. It would help if the description for machines like that mentioned that they output hot air. New players like me won't even realise it's doing it until they discover randomly in horror when browsing around in the thermal overlay :)

Presumably once you have the knowledge about cooling down electrolyzer air you can then figure out various ways to cool it down. The game seems way too overeliant on wheezeworts for easy cooling-  it would be good if it gave you other options or at least made hints about them or reaching them easier. I never even knew about them or ice biomes until I read about them here - my explorations had never managed to reach that far with my first bases.

28 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

Electrolyzers are probably best used in insulated rooms - let the electrolyzer produce hydrogen and oxygen, it will condition itself to about 70 C by its products, scoop the gases, separate hydrogen and oxygen, send hydrogen to hydrogen generator, and only cool down the resulting oxygen. Probably the easiest way is to put some Wheezeworts at where you're releasing the oxygen to the open. Of course you want to send all hot gases through insulated, or better abyssalite pipes. There are many more or less sophisticated setups for that.

Aquatuner does not "create cold", it only displaces heat. So you remove heat from water, but you place it on the aquatuner and subsequently on the liquid you use to cool it. And you still need to get rid of that heat. But it's your choice what you use to cool it, and you can then send the hot liquid to its corresponding machine. If you cool it with clean water, you can send that water to electrolyzer. If it's polluted water, send it to purifier or to fertilizer synthesizer. If it's oil, send it to oil refinery. In all cases, the heat in the liquid will be destroyed by the machine.

Cheers. Knowing this about the Aquatuner starts to open up possibilities about killing off my water germs and so on. They just need to describe the Aquatuner a bit better, I think. Now I know it can be submerged then like you say, you can easily start coming up with simple(ish) ways to use its heat productively.

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Just now, Jigsawn said:

Oh, I had no idea about immersing the aquatuners! The game should probably tell you that, I'll suggest it to the devs.

Really only 1 or 2 deoxidisers? Are you serious? I have always had plenty (spread around to avoid max pressure where possible). Whenever I start getting more dupes, or expanding my base, I get insufficent oxygen warnings. So the logical solution is to build another algae deoxidiser or two, which generates more oxygen thus solving the problem. I also usually have a carbon dioxide filter or two (either water or algae based) in areas where cabon dixoide falls to. If you aren't creating oxygen via deoxiders or electrolyisers how are your dupes surviving?

In this current, big, base I have ten or more deoxiders spread around it, plus two electrolyzers and some carbon dioxide filters of both types. That's for 15 dupes. I'll post some screenshots later on. 

So for electrolyzers you are seperating them, cooling the hot air they are producing and then pumping it out to where it needs to go? Makes sense. I should be able to do that now I have access to a few wheezeworts. It's just unituitive for a new player to think that way - your first instinct is to place a new oxygen machine within the base. It would help if the description for machines like that mentioned that they output hot air. New players like me won't even realise it's doing it until they discover randomly in horror when browsing around in the thermal overlay :)

Take the insufficient oxygen warning with a grain of salt; it's based only on production, so if your oxygen generators are overpressurized, then the warning will pop up until they turn on again when the pressure drops. If you have more oxygen generators than needed (you do, about 4x more), then they will spend most of their time overpressurized, causing the warning to appear. This doesn't mean that you should build more.

Identify the zone that you want to keep oxygenated, seal it with airlocks (doesn't have to be completely airtight, just limit the amount of oxygen that can escape into areas you don't care about), and put in only as many generators as you need. 15 dupes * 100g/s/dupe = 1500g/s required oxygen production. Electrolyzers generate 888g/s, so two is enough if they run most of the time; to be safe, it's ok to put an additional deoxidizer or two in your central area. You do NOT need ten or more.

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I completely understand what you need. simpler solutions. When I asked how to cool down water i get tons of responsed that need aquatuners, oil submertion and other stuff I dont have power to mantain. I struggled a lot with heat in my base and i realized what heats your base are a few things:

1. adjacent warm/hot biomes.
2. water in not insulated pipes
3. Heavy machinery and industrial buildings.

So, if you reached a cold biome you need to put those electrolizers in there, away from your base and then build a gas pipe to feed that oxygen in. Is not hard, unless you have a hard to reach cold biome. My setup usually involves 2 electrolizers, 3 gas pumps and a gas filter, using aprox 1000+ W of power, you will need at least 2 coal generators inicially.

Make a rectangle building in the cold biome about 12x10. At the bottom set up the pumps, one in the bottom right and the other on the bottom left, then build airtiles in the middle as a second floor, about 4 tiles high from the bottom and put 2 electrolizers aligned with the pumps. Then the 3rd pump in the top left with its filter for hydrogen. Now its up to you to set up the gas pipes ,water pipes and lead all that oxygen to your base (which I recomend near the warmer areas (because the cold biome will produce cool air at first which will be great to control heat a little). Dont need a lot of planing. But think careful about the wires as well. 

Now that you have your main oxygen production ready, put the coal generators nearby, but not inside your base, so dupes dont have to go all the way to your biome to fuel them. Yes, maybe it will be a long wire/pipe but it will be worth it. Near the coal generators put the hydrogen generator and at least 4 batteries. Once the system starts running, the hydrogen will help provide power for the oxygen system, thus using less coal. You will see only 1 generator working at the time.

Finally, I recomend using separated pipes for each pump with oxygen because the way oxygen distributes on juctions slows down gas movement. I tried many differents pipes configurations and is better to have 2 separated lines for each pump. Put the oxygen output in the middle of your base of areas that need cooling the most and you will be fine.

If you add more dupes, you can add a 3rd pump at the bottom middle. The maths are simple, 1 electrolizers produces 888gr of oxygen and a pump pulls 500g of gas.
2 electrolizers =1666gr of O2 and 3 pump = 1500 gr. And this 3rd pump's pipes can be added to both your existing pipelines boosting the oxygen it spreads, since it can carry 1000 gr tops.

Let's see, what else. Ah, yes, final tips:

Use abyssalite for gas pipes that carry the cool oxygen, or you can loose cold on the way to your base, specially if they come across your generators or hot areas. The water that feeds your electrolizers dont need to be cool either, It consumes the water and emitts oxygen at a fixed temperature either way.

If your oxygen starts warming up you will need to set up a couple of gas coolers, which you can set up outside your oxygen building, but if you will need a bit more extra power. Hovewer, with this oxygen configuration, this will not happen in at least 30-40 cycles. I put wheezeworts at each side of my electrolizers to cool some oxygen as it gets produces but even so they will not be enough to keep it that way forever. remember to clean up your building of any ice or polluted ice since it will eventually melt and flood your pumps, and worse, will have some polluted oxygen inside and will get pumped out as well.

You can set up this outside of a cold biome but then the oxygen will come too hot too fast.
Hope this helps, is not that hard to build and despise being a wall of text im sure you will have it right with little twiking.

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1 hour ago, Luminite2 said:

it's based only on production, so if your oxygen generators are overpressurized, then the warning will pop up until they turn on again when the pressure drops.

Grain of salt, yes. But over-pressure of electrolyzers counts. The warning is displayed when amount of oxygen your duplicants breathed last cycle exceeds amount of oxygen generated during last cycle. And by generation it means electrolysis, deoxydizers, or algae terrariums. So the warning may pop up every time your duplicants breathe some leftover oxygen around the map, breathe polluted oxygen created by puddles of polluted water, or if you have alternate ways of producing oxygen such as through freezing polluted oxygen. 

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36 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

Grain of salt, yes. But over-pressure of electrolyzers counts. The warning is displayed when amount of oxygen your duplicants breathed last cycle exceeds amount of oxygen generated during last cycle. And by generation it means electrolysis, deoxydizers, or algae terrariums. So the warning may pop up every time your duplicants breathe some leftover oxygen around the map, breathe polluted oxygen created by puddles of polluted water, or if you have alternate ways of producing oxygen such as through freezing polluted oxygen. 

Not quite, when a electrozer or vent reaches it maximum preassure, it stop working/pumping the whole process for a bit, so in that instant oxygen is not produced, which decreases the count at the final report. But is irrelevant when your base is all good and blue from that much oxygen. The only thing constant is the oxygen consumption, unless your dupes spend too much time holding their breath. My point is, to explain myself better is that if your normally produce 1200k of O2 and your dupes consume 1000k then the warning won't pop-up. But if the electrozier or vent gets overpreesurized this production will stop and probably that cycle you will only produce 900k, which is the reason the warning pops-up, because at the end of the cycle technically your consumed more than you produced.

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Couple of tips: 

1. Put your hot things like batteries, transformers, power plants, and CO2 Scrubber  at the top of your base with insulation below..  Heat rises.

2. When you switch to electrolyzers build them in the cold biome and then pump the oxygen back to your main base.

3.  Store polluted water that you are not ready to use yet in your cold biome and purify it on the way back to your base.   You won't have to worry about water temps again until you start using a steam geyser.

4.  Store a few containers of ice and snow in your water tank.  Set the max weight of the container to be about 1/4 of normal.  They will melt every once in a while cooling your water.  If you turn off "sweep only" the dupes will even dutifully fill them up after!

 

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23 minutes ago, greggbert said:

Couple of tips: 

1. Put your hot things like batteries, transformers, power plants, and CO2 Scrubber  at the top of your base with insulation below..  Heat rises.

2. When you switch to electrolyzers build them in the cold biome and then pump the oxygen back to your main base.

3.  Store polluted water that you are not ready to use yet in your cold biome and purify it on the way back to your base.   You won't have to worry about water temps again until you start using a steam geyser.

 

1. Heat does NOT rise in this game; their is no convection. The main thing is cooling and/or insulating them as you say.

2. This is a reasonable thing to do, though it won't work forever; I recommend figuring out an active cooling method.

3. When you purify it with the sieve, it doesn't matter what temp it was; it will be set to 40C. There's no need to store it in a cold biome. If it's hot, just store it in an insulated area.

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Thanks guys and fullmetalarthur for your detailed advice. I'll suggest to the devs in the feedback subforum that they tweak the oxygen warnings. As a new player if I see low oxygen warnings the obvious thing to do is build more oxygen generators!

Here's my base:

 

Top of base. At top hydrogen collects from the elextrolyzers and is pumped into hydrogenerator. All base exterior isulation blocks are abysallyite. Bristle blossom farm mid left is overheated (probably due to hot water pipes and hot air rising from electrolyzer below it). I am planning to relocate it to the new central upper room where it's insulated. Then after I fix my hot water problem it should work.

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Central Base. Food production, batteries etc on left are abysallite insulated. Main polluted water tank in centre (with 40 degree water), its hot around there. The mealwood farm is mostly working thanks to its abysallite insulation. The second electrolyzer is hidden unfer the automation icon and pumps out a lot of heat but the wart soaks some of that up.

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Bottom of base. Clean water tank (the germ filled one I mentioned in the other thread). Sieves on bottom right left and broken aquatuner is there too. Even without the tuner, its hot down there, 40 degrees - it's in a hotter biome. I'll probably move the aquatuner into that tank on the top left of this screenshot and fill it with polluted water. There is an ice biome another screens distance along the walkway on the bottom left.

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West of base. Power production area leading into slime biome. The upper areas I already pumped gas out of (chlorine to sterilize some of the slime caves, and hydrogen for my generator). Both ran out pretty fast. There's a few oxygen generating machines in here and it's sealed off by airlock from the main base - with extra airlocks/hygene for entry to the slime caves and gas pockets. Obviously in this area its very gassy and hot, but just about manageable.

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Not pictured is another ice biome to the northwest, tunnels in the slime biome, and plenty of toxic caves in most directions which I have mined out for metal and algae. 

Going forward with this new knowledge, I will start phasing out the algae deoxidisers in my main base - hopefully the electrolyzers will take up the slack. I'll then get the electrolyzers "outsourced" and cooled and pump in cold air as suggested. On the water cooling side I'll see if I can get the aquatuner functioning, and start upgrading some of the water pipes to be insulated as they pass through hotter areas of the base (what materials apart from abysallite can I use for this?). I might create a fresh water supply first as turning off all the water in the base to do upgrades sounds like a recipe for death.

In the longer term I will try to get the bristle farm up and running and start pumping all the nasty gases out of the areas. I also need to start my fertilizer machine again and using the natural gas that's built up in its room to a generator.

10 minutes ago, greggbert said:

4.  Store a few containers of ice and snow in your water tank.  Set the max weight of the container to be about 1/4 of normal.  They will melt every once in a while cooling your water.  If you turn off "sweep only" the dupes will even dutifully fill them up after!

 

 

Why does the sweep only being unticked make that happen? What would happen if you ticked sweep only on it?

6 minutes ago, Luminite2 said:

3. When you purify it with the sieve, it doesn't matter what temp it was; it will be set to 40C. There's no need to store it in a cold biome. If it's hot, just store it in an insulated area.

 

So my water will always come out of a sieve at 40C? Does putting the sieve in a colder place not change that? If not, then can you just try cooling it in the pipes on its way to its destination, or should you be pumping it to a cooling area before it enters circulation? I'm trying to stop this 40C water flowing around my base at the moment.

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15 dupes at the moment. I was doing fine supporting small numbers of them so I've gradually ramped it up. Now oxygen is running out it's becoming more of an issue. But there are so many daily tasks that need doing in this base that cutting down their numbers isn't an option. Just keeping food production, supply lines and power going is consuming most of my dupes time. 

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12 minutes ago, Luminite2 said:

1. Heat does NOT rise in this game; their is no convection. The main thing is cooling and/or insulating them as you say.

Heat definitely does rise in the game. Yes, there is no convection. It's replaced by strong upwards conduction.

 

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15 minutes ago, Jigsawn said:

So my water will always come out of a sieve at 40C? Does putting the sieve in a colder place not change that? If not, then can you just try cooling it in the pipes on its way to its destination, or should you be pumping it to a cooling area before it enters circulation? I'm trying to stop this 40C water flowing around my base at the moment.

Correct. Cooling the sieve or the polluted water will not change it. You should insulate the pipe of 40C water; you only need to cool it if you're using it for farms or dumping into an uninsulated cistern.

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5 minutes ago, Luminite2 said:

Correct. Cooling the sieve or the polluted water will not change it. You should insulate the pipe of 40C water; you only need to cool it if you're using it for farms or dumping into an uninsulated cistern.

Cheers. Looking at the pipe build menu, the only marked as "insulated" building material I can see in the list is abysallite. If I need that to build my pipes I'm screwed as I already have a shortage and not enough miners who can safely mine it.

Unfortunately I need a hydro farm for my bristle berries, right now I think the hot water in the pipes is causing them to overheat. If I do manage to insulate the pipes I'll need to cool their water seperately. If I can get the aquatuner working it should solve my hot water woes though.

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Just now, Jigsawn said:

Cheers. Looking at the pipe build menu, the only marked as "insulated" building material I can see in the list is abysallite. If I need that to build my pipes I'm screwed as I already have a shortage and not enough miners who can safely mine it.

Unfortunately I need a hydro farm for my bristle berries, right now I think the hot water in the pipes is causing them to overheat. If I do manage to insulate the pipes I'll need to cool their water seperately. If I can get the aquatuner working it should solve my hot water woes though.

Yes, you'll need to cool it for the berries; I hope you get the aquatuner figured out. You should calculate how much water you need though; don't waste power/resources cooling more water than necessary.

Abyssalite is the best insulator. You can also use the insulated liquid pipes (a different item in the plumbing build menu; requires a tech though) built out of some cheap material; they'll still leak some heat, but it will be much less.

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1 minute ago, Luminite2 said:

Yes, you'll need to cool it for the berries; I hope you get the aquatuner figured out. You should calculate how much water you need though; don't waste power/resources cooling more water than necessary.

Abyssalite is the best insulator. You can also use the insulated liquid pipes (a different item in the plumbing build menu; requires a tech though) built out of some cheap material; they'll still leak some heat, but it will be much less.

Ah, I had forgotten about insulated pipes, I do have them unlocked already. Looks like I might need to start learning the automation stuff to prevent waste soon then. Probably won't happen for this base though!

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31 minutes ago, FullMetalArthur said:

Not quite, when a electrozer or vent reaches it maximum preassure, it stop working/pumping the whole process for a bit, so in that instant oxygen is not produced, which decreases the count at the final report.

Overpressurized electrolyzer is maintaining pressure and through it it's maintaining balance between oxygen generation and production. If the electrolyzer is in the open (no longer a good idea but can be used for a while), it will replenish exactly the oxygen your duplicants breathe out, assuming you take care of CO2 and don't let other gases into the base.

Even if your electrolyser is hidden in a generator, you can still organize things so that when the base gets at 2 kg/tile, the pipes will fill up and the electrolyzer will go over pressure, stopping production until it's needed again. There's no problem with electrolyzer going over pressure. It's a regulating factor. And if the design is bad and the generator goes over pressure while not managing to maintain pressure in the base, you can just build one or few more. It won't use any more water or power than what's needed to produce oxygen you need for the base.

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Regarding the "Insufficient Oxygen Generation" thing...

Based on my experiences, it's based on how much your Dupes have consumed today vs how much has been produced today.  A lot of times I'll see the warning for the first 2/3 of a cycle, then it will flicker on and off for a touch, then it will be gone until morning, when it will promptly appear again.

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42 minutes ago, Jigsawn said:

15 dupes at the moment. I was doing fine supporting small numbers of them so I've gradually ramped it up. Now oxygen is running out it's becoming more of an issue. But there are so many daily tasks that need doing in this base that cutting down their numbers isn't an option. Just keeping food production, supply lines and power going is consuming most of my dupes time. 

That is a lot.  I stay at 8 until I have water geysers+electrolyzers set up and then add cooling as I ramp up dups.

 

15 dups does take a ton of algae.  You could run way more slime distillers or find some big algae blooms in the caustic biome but honestly, you can burn through 10T very fast with that many,

 

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What I would do right now, given the current state of your base, is build storage containers in the reservoirs closest to the center of your base. Set the clean water one to take Ice and snow, and the dirty water one to take polluted ice. Then do some digging in the cold biome and sweep it (high priority) to bring the ice home.

As a bonus, this will (eventually) get you free water in those reservoirs, but don't rely on that. A storage compactor full of ice will provide cooling for a long time before it melts.

Next, I'd build a small chamber near the center of the base out of conductive material (granite will do, but tungsten metal blocks are better), install worts in it, and pump hydrogen in it. Leave it open on the bottom to force the oxygen out until it's completely full of hydrogen, then seal it off. Wheezeworts in hydrogen are 4x as effective as in oxygen, so a 4x4 box with 2 wheezeworts inside it provides as much cooling as 8 freestanding wheezeworts.

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I move away from Algae soon enough so it isn't a problem. I agree that the game is a bit misleading with solutions to counter heat as they are not straightforward, others described several options. Hot water will eventually heat up your base, so avoid it or use Abyssalite pipes as mentioned. If you can reach an AETN then I find this setup simple and efficient 

 

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