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Achieving high temperatures in Occupation Update


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I was messing around with a tepidizer and they fixed their interactions with gasses.  I kind of approve, but I would also have liked to see a replacement object that could achieve high temperatures, like a torch or a furnace.

From what I can tell, tepidizers appear to never make liquid or gas go above 175C while running. 

I recently tricked the tepidizer in to thinking that it was in liquid while actually in a vacuum.  It melted fairly quickly. 

Then I used an aquatuner and it heated up orders of magnitide faster. 

I want to use this in a petroleum boiler.  The issue is that there are only two ways to make this system work.  1, you repair the aquatuner.  This costs resources over time and is horrible.  2, you deconstruct the aquatuner and replace it, which requires user input and is horrible.  Is there a way to have this done automatically?

Also, does any one know how to remove heat from a building in a vacuum?  Thermo Shiftplates don't work.

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Actually there is another way that can produce high temps effectively a bunch of Aquatuners  in a vacuum with disable repair.If you set up a battery bank and have a basin for the liquid metal to collect you can get pools of superheated mass for you’re use and some cooled liquid to.Most likely the bottleneck to this is it has to be micromanaged and power but if the liquid you cool is polluted water the power isn’t actually that bad because it has a thermal mass of like 6.

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Now that they seemingly fixed the metal refinery bugs.. hopefully.  There is a way to siphon out hot coolant out of a loop, like this.

RefineryHeater1.thumb.jpg.39b1216bbe63ada260e2ad22ab717025.jpg

 

There's phosphorus where that pressure switch is.  It vaporizes over 280C and when it does, it opens that shut-off valve to start dumping some of the hot coolant out of the loop.  Smelting iron will obviously give you the highest temps.  To build something like that, you'd just build a temp storage compactor and stuff 2KG of phosphorite into it, then dump it out and seal it.  The phosphorite will then melt into phosphorus around 243C.  If you're not against using debug mode, you can use 2KG of mercury for a higher temperature output.

 

The oil well also produces natural gas within itself around 150C above the water temp you put into it, so that could be used for lower temp stuff.  Otherwise, magma.  Honestly, with a decent enough heat-exchanger, you can convert a surprising amount of oil into petroleum with a manageable amount of magma.  Although, with the nerf to how much dupes can carry, it might take a while to get the amount you want.

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3 hours ago, R9MX4 said:

 

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If you don't mind using a crazy exploit… You can download thissavefile and get some free liquid metal with this old exploit. Then boil oil with hot liquid metal...

guide video

 

 

Does that thing keep going forever?  I don't see any reason why it would stop.  The only issue I have with your solution is that is is utter witchcraft and you should be burnt at the stake.  Honestly, it is too exploity for me. Thank you for the suggestion though, it would certainly work.

I thought that you couldn't transfer heat off of buildings with thermo shift plates in a vacuum.  That's one of the first things I tried with the aquatuners, though I was not doing that witchcraft.  I tried to transfer the heat directly to a metal tile .

I was looking in to other options when it occurred to me that you could feed molten metal in to a metal refinery as coolant.  Buildings in vacuums don't appear to transfer heat to and from their contents, so I melted some gold and pumped it with a wolframite pump (before it broke).  I smelted some iron and it heated 400 kg of gold up from 1216.4 C to 2275.2 C (from one smelting job.  That is an incredible amount of heat.  This could easily be used to boil the crude oil.  The only issue is that the metal ore in the world is finite, meaning that this is certainly not permanent.  It is a good long term solution though.  The refinery will overheat over time due to the 80 W heat output, but that isn't an issue because it doesn't need to be run very often.  If it can be drained completely of gold, you can dump some water on it every once and a while to cool it off.  I'm sure it could be automated.  An improvement to this scheme would be to use liquid iron for its higher specific heat capacity.

I should note that I don't need much heat, since I am using a heat transfer system to take the heat from the natural gas and putting it in to the incoming crude oil.

Another option is oil wells.  They have an overheat temperature of 2000C and generate a small amount of heat (10 W).  I left one running in a vacuum and it has gotten up to 800C and is still steadily rising.  The question is how to remove that heat and take it to the boiler without transferring the heat in to the natural gas stored inside the oil well.... The natural gas would take most of the energy and end up at a temperature that is too low to boil petroleum.  The benefit would be that this scheme would be 100% sustainable and require no human interaction.  The downside is that it would be incredibly slow.

I want to avoid using magma as my only high temperature heat source because it is not renewable.  I would rather stick with the refinery scheme, which would last a lot longer.  I should note that I primed my system with magma (to heat the gold).

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33 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

An improvement to this scheme would be to use liquid iron for its higher specific heat capacity.

I might be mistaken, but I thought I read elsewhere on these forums the amount of heat put into the coolant is entirely based on what you smelt. So a coolant with a higher heat capacity will gain the same heat and just go up a smaller temperature change.

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13 minutes ago, donutman07 said:

I might be mistaken, but I thought I read elsewhere on these forums the amount of heat put into the coolant is entirely based on what you smelt. So a coolant with a higher heat capacity will gain the same heat and just go up a smaller temperature change.

It would still be hot enough to boil the petroleum and just as much heat energy goes in to the iron as the gold, but iron can achieve higher temperatures and stays with it longer.  I feel it would be more stable.  You would be less likely to end up with iron spilling out of the pipes.

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11 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

you couldn't transfer heat off of buildings with thermo shift plates in a vacuum

Closed doors are regarded as bricks. Heat transfer from aquatuner→hydrogen→shift plant→airlock.

15 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

Does that thing keep going forever?

No, but it takes a long time to stop. After the aquatuner is broken because of overheat, the temperature of airlock reduces slowly.

20 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

it is too exploity for me

I agree with you.

Magma is the most efficient way for me but not a permanent solution. Deconstruction & reconstruction aquatuner could produce sustainable high temperature but I need to keep giving new orders to dups.

34 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

Another option is oil wells.  They have an overheat temperature of 2000C and generate a small amount of heat (10 W).

10 watts is too little. Tepidizer produces thousands of times more heat. Since one of my friends told me he can boil around 10kg/s oil to NG with a huge preheating system and one tepidizer before OC update, I guess it's hard to acquire 10g/s oil to NG with one oil well.

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Ah, I didn't notice you put hydrogen on the aquatuner.  That makes sense.

Also, yes, the doors would stop producing after a while.  I forgot that the phase change reduced the temperature.

I believe you could boil far more than 10 kg/s with the tepidizer exploit if you preheat it in the natural gas.  It's just hard to get more than 10 kg/s of oil in to the boiler while still preheating it. 

I would like to see the amount of energy required to boil one gram of crude oil in a preheated oil system.  I think the amount of energy required is the energy to heat the incoming crude oil at what ever temperature it comes in at to the boiling point of petroleum, if I am not mistaken.  Do I also need to heat the new natural gas to the ambient temperature? 

This, of course, does not mean I think I can boil 10 kg/s of crude oil with the 10W that comes from an oil well.  That's why it is too slow.  You CAN boil petroleum with them, but it would be too slow to be worth it. 

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14 hours ago, Zarquan said:

...

I believe you could boil far more than 10 kg/s with the tepidizer exploit if you preheat it in the natural gas.  It's just hard to get more than 10 kg/s of oil in to the boiler while still preheating it. 

I would like to see the amount of energy required to boil one gram of crude oil in a preheated oil system.  I think the amount of energy required is the energy to heat the incoming crude oil at what ever temperature it comes in at to the boiling point of petroleum, if I am not mistaken.  Do I also need to heat the new natural gas to the ambient temperature? 

...

I'm pretty certain that it could do more then 10 kg/s with a proper heat-exchanger, although with moving that volume of liquid at a time, it might have to be rather large.  Heat-exchangers get more efficient the less you put through them as there's more time for heat to, well, exchange.

 

As for how much heat you need, yes, it basically depends on the temperature difference between the incoming product and it's boiling point.  The smaller you can make it, the less over-all heat is required.  There is one important thing to note here:  What I've observed recently with my boiling machines is that when petroleum/natural gas is created from boiling oil, the resulting product does not have the same temperature.  Instead, the new product is created with around the same amount of joules the old product had. 

 

Since oil and petro have very similar specific heat capacities, the petro is produced at nearly the same temperature as the oil but slightly less.  However, with oil/petro to natural gas, the differences between their specific heats is much higher, resulting in natural gas that's produced more then 100C colder then the boiling oil/petro.  Around 430C.  This appears to be the major reason why natural gas can't be produced forever with a single injection of heat.  Interesting enough, this does not appear to be happening in all cases.  Baking slime into dirt, for instance, seems to produce dirt at the baking temperature instead.  

 

This also means that converting oil to petro is waaay more efficient heat-wise with a proper heat-exchanger, then to converting oil/petro into natural gas.  With my oil refinery, the incoming oil is up to around 91% of the temp needed to boil where my petro-to-gas refinery is only around 77%.  While this difference might not seem that great at first glance, it technically means that the former oil-to-petro machine is slightly more then 2.5 times more heat-efficient then the petro-to-gas machine.

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As of the today's update Thermal Aquatuners now go up to 525 Celsius overheat temperature (575 with gold amalgam). This should help with certain heat generation needs. Notably, you can use it to boil dirt out of PH2O and then cook the dirt into sand all at once for a renewable sand source that doesn't rely on refinery tricks or magma.

 

Hopefully this isn't a bug.

 

Edit: Just realised that's actually hot enough to boil oil directly into nat gas as well. Time to play around with that...

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@The Flying Fox Are you sure about that conservation of energy?  Because I just in petroleum at 626.9C encased in abyssalite and it boiled and ended up at 622.4C.  This means that a massive amount of heat energy got created.

 

@JonnyMonroe The issue is that the tepidizer will only heat gasses and liquids to around 175 C then no longer add heat.  I believe it even cools down gasses and liquids that are above that temperature.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

 

@JonnyMonroe The issue is that the tepidizer will only heat gasses and liquids to around 175 C then no longer add heat.  I believe it even cools down gasses and liquids that are above that temperature.

 

 

Right, so just use an aquatuner that will go up to 575 Celsius now if you need it hotter.

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I thought you said tepidizers because I've seen those overheat temperatures in tepidizers, but not aquatuners.

I just built an aquatuner out of copper and it says its overheat temperature is 125, just like normal.  I also used debug mode to heat it to 300C and it started taking damage.  I think this is a bug.  Same with tepidizers.

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42 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

Are you sure about that conservation of energy?  Because I just in petroleum at 626.9C encased in abyssalite and it boiled and ended up at 622.4C.  This means that a massive amount of heat energy got created.

The same as I observed. No massive temperature drop.

1 hour ago, JonnyMonroe said:

As of the today's update Thermal Aquatuners now go up to 525 Celsius overheat temperature (575 with gold amalgam).

It appeared a few days ago. I looked at the code. Overheat Temperature setting is the same as before.

12 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

build, save, load, temp resistance skyrockets.

Then certain it's a bug.

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5 hours ago, Kabrute said:

build, save, load, temp resistance skyrockets.

It's a tool tip error. The machine will still overheat at the correct temperature I've found. Seems to happen occasionally to all buildings. Or at least ones made from gold ore or pure gold.

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45 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

It's a tool tip error. The machine will still overheat at the correct temperature I've found. Seems to happen occasionally to all buildings. Or at least ones made from gold ore or pure gold.

You are wrong
image.thumb.png.7f6e2f13f7e8608d25c4f1f027600879.png

DebugHeat.sav

image.thumb.png.f2812ca441e8e6294ce639376ff9e71a.png

These are not tooltip errors
image.thumb.png.ae3ca3fc3b741a9bba03bbb4cb89dd0e.png
image.thumb.png.f36c67d71c3462bed1534c7c8360e55e.png
 

It went from overheating and taking damage, to (save/load) stopped taking damage and kept on climbing in heat
Liquids seem to be thermally locked to the original overheat temp of the building though

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Its kinda fixed, still I'm using extremely low volume gas to get higher temp, gas doesn't have the grams to cool the tepizer down XD its not fixed as much as very difficult to measurably exploit it but I figure the doors aught to do the trick.  Not exploitable in any sense of the word.  the amount of power being used to get half way to cooking gas is 20000x more than would be gotten from it.

Liquid max value is normal overheat +25/grams
Gas can have low enough weight to drive machine to 500c overheat
Even with cheating though its not viable.
image.thumb.png.db2d5490b8decbafbb510538d165dbbb.png

On a side note, 12 cycles in I ignored the base for 6 cycles and nobody died....... o.o reloading to before debug to continue my game :D

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