Saturnus Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Learning tool tip still says it increases skill up speed but skill up have been removed so unless it has an effect on job mastery which I'm not seeing it really is more or less pointless. A Junior interior designer with just +1 artistic ability from the start can make master pieces. Why would you ever consider having a dupe permanently assigned to such a position? Hat dance him into the role when needed to make art. I know, increased research and art completion time but that aren't really that important to be honest. High learning comes automatically from higher tiers, and when research is done, he's just another regular dupe because he apparently took a stupid pill when he quit his job as a tenured scientist. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimgaw Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 This is the update which should have taken them as long as outbreak. EDIT Seems like this update is just a slew of bullet points from brainstorm session implemented without thinking how they would interact. Feels very rushed. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottFree Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I think that's the point, a preview. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimgaw Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 14 minutes ago, ScottFree said: I think that's the point, a preview. I wrote that in that context. We shall see if the concerns will get addressed at all in less than a week. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemie Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Actually, I don't think the artist improves at all. Crypticfox ran a stream and his artist did 30+ portraits and never made a masterpiece. So a dup with base +4 artistry might be better since you can assign another job to this dup too. As an aside, his stream is a great example of how broken things are. He would go 4 or 5 cycles with nothing getting built until it became critical and he had to force prioritize building. I think his gofers was prioriting sweep so no one would deliver the materials to allow building. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, chemie said: Actually, I don't think the artist improves at all. Crypticfox ran a stream and his artist did 30+ portraits and never made a masterpiece. So he set a dupe with zero art skill as his artist then. Here's proof of the +1 base art skill dupe being able to make master pieces Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 It doesn't take much - even the presence of a blank canvas is a positive decor bonus. This sounds like #minmaxingproblems. I think it's a bug but the 'artist' tool tip suggests electrical wiring priorities, so barring that oversight. The reason you would want a fully leveled junior artist promoted to being an artist is so that you can decorate quickly and be done with it - one little hat dance and they're back off to their real job. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 6 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said: It doesn't take much - even the presence of a blank canvas is a positive decor bonus. This sounds like #minmaxingproblems. I think it's a bug but the 'artist' tool tip suggests electrical wiring priorities, so barring that oversight. The reason you would want a fully leveled junior artist promoted to being an artist is so that you can decorate quickly and be done with it - one little hat dance and they're back off to their real job. Isn't it more efficient to just have 3 dupes do the hat dance into the first tier role and be done with it much faster? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Just now, Saturnus said: Isn't it more efficient to just have 3 dupes do the hat dance and be done with it much faster? It does indeed. I have a tendency to agree about not needed the permanent position. Maybe they'll turn some of these roles into passively acquired hobbies and require the role or hobby for the work in question. That's assuming that the artist doesn't forget his role bonus - but that's a hot topic in several other threads already. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Well. What I'm sort of hinting to here is that only highly skilled artists should be able to make master pieces. If anyone that knows which end of a paint brush is supposed to be wet can put on a hat and do it why are they considered master pieces? Why aren't those specifically restricted to Artists that have achieved mastery in his craft. It would be sort of logical. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiennaNeryam Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I get that the developers wanted to stop the 26 athletics on dupes, but not having them level at all just seems counterintuitive to me. Base skill levels could have a cap and level a lot slower than they did before. It could even be tied to being assigned to the relevant job. But I want my dupes to become more useful the longer they are with me. Right now things like Anemia are just a no go since those dupes will not be useful in any role except maybe gofer but even then I would pick any other dupe over an Anemic. Before I would take them if their other skills were good since they would outlevel the slowness eventually. I would like to see more types of artwork with more bonuses, giving the best bonus when using a dupe that has natural creative skill. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Saturnus said: It would be sort of logical. This is how I thought the system worked initially, that much makes sense. I was taken aback by the insta-buffs - I could only really think of one reason why they would do that. I'm of the opinion that the way the system works at this time is more like what you'll get once they have 100% finished the job. It doesn't make much sense that the tenured scientist gains experience at all ( something is missing from this logic or there's another related role the tenured scientist could play? ) - what would make more sense is if those job role level completions gradually added to the base skills - and what we're seeing is more like a preview of what it would be like to see them finish the training. This makes these roles playable for the purposes of testing. What's not implemented is the gradual and permanent skill level increases. Essentially, we're given the end result of a role immediately...but without much recourse if we need them to do something else while we're testing the system as it is in its current state. 39 minutes ago, NiennaNeryam said: Right now things like Anemia are just a no go since those dupes will not be useful in any role except maybe gofer but even then I would pick any other dupe over an Anemic Under the aforementioned leveling conditions ( above this quote ), one could cure anemia to a workable state. There are numerous positions which add to the athletics. I can't reconcile their choice to leave anemic duplicants in the game unless gradual leveling was the intended means by which the job system is supposed to work. As of this post - we are missing medics and doctors in the job tree. I think once they've added all the job roles corresponding to all the valid roles - then, they will tweak what experience is supposed to do across the entire board. I'm thinking scientist types will be linked with surgeons or some high level healer, but that's just a guess. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickrush Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 There is an easy solution to the artist problem that also solves the groundskeeper problem of not having progression: Merge the artist with the groundskeeper. They both serve a very similar purpose, which is keeping the base nice and clean and thus decreasing stress. This way the groundskeeper/artist both has a progression and a steady job. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hechicera Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 3 hours ago, chemie said: I think his gofers was prioriting sweep so no one would deliver the materials to allow building. Easy trap, but very avoidable. The priority on the storage bin acts as a job priority for the gophers. So, if you say, put a bin for just coal near the power, and set it to 5. No sweepers do anything else until it is full. If you have a base storage bin (set to hold almost everything), somewhere, and maybe set it to 3: then no sweepers do any 1 or 2 priorities until it is full. Had my colony start to wobble at near turn 200 last night. On a new one now. No major problems until then, but I found no geysers until very late. And Then I only found one, a water, within 10 tiles of the edge of the map. The slower explore can hurt. I overextended getting there and that got me. I did need a "halfway house" with a bathroom and an algae thingy. That gave them somewhere to potty and catch air. Another issue is wounds. Going to put that in observations. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goboking Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, The Plum Gate said: I can't reconcile their choice to leave anemic duplicants in the game unless gradual leveling was the intended means by which the job system is supposed to work. Maybe they want to add an adrenaline pill to the Apothecary that boosts Athletics for a cycle or two? 33 minutes ago, clickrush said: There is an easy solution to the artist problem that also solves the groundskeeper problem of not having progression: Merge the artist with the groundskeeper. They both serve a very similar purpose, which is keeping the base nice and clean and thus decreasing stress. This way the groundskeeper/artist both has a progression and a steady job. You just compared Jackson Pollock to Groundskeeper Willy. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickrush Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Just now, goboking said: Maybe they want to add an adrenaline pill to the Apothecary that boosts Athletics for a cycle or two? You just compared Jackson Pollock to Groundskeeper Willy. We're talking about duplicants and not human beings Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemie Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 45 minutes ago, Hechicera said: Easy trap, but very avoidable. The priority on the storage bin acts as a job priority for the gophers. So, if you say, put a bin for just coal near the power, and set it to 5. No sweepers do anything else until it is full. If you have a base storage bin (set to hold almost everything), somewhere, and maybe set it to 3: then no sweepers do any 1 or 2 priorities until it is full. Had my colony start to wobble at near turn 200 last night. On a new one now. No major problems until then, but I found no geysers until very late. And Then I only found one, a water, within 10 tiles of the edge of the map. The slower explore can hurt. I overextended getting there and that got me. I did need a "halfway house" with a bathroom and an algae thingy. That gave them somewhere to potty and catch air. Another issue is wounds. Going to put that in observations. Everything was on 2 (until he had to force building) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltyteabag Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 21 minutes ago, goboking said: Maybe they want to add an adrenaline pill to the Apothecary that boosts Athletics for a cycle or two? Oh yeah, that's just what I want. Having to deal with a dupe going through withdrawals, lol. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87003-what-is-the-point-of-learning-and-artistic-abilities-in-the-preview/#findComment-998441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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