Hydrogen geyser

[Technoincubus]

We have water and chlorine geysers but what bout Hydrogen? it is often sought for and so far only reliable power supply is based on natural gas. Hydrogen geysers could solve power problem at least partially.

[calibayzone]

There is no externality cost to hydrogen geyser power, so that would make things too easy. But if they made hydrogen power fusion power and lots of heat maybe.

[Kasuha]

Each steam geyser is in principle hydrogen geyser as it is relatively simple to set up an electrolyzer/h.generator combo that can power itself and produce some extra power and oxygen.

If something, we need a phosphorite "geyser" for sustainability right now. Or liquid phosphorus geyser with adding the phosphorus among pincha pepper fertilizers. But I believe devs will tie this loose end in some of future updates.

[Michi01]

I'm repeating myself but I hope that they will add unique names and looks for all "geysers" in the future (with steam geysers being the only ones remaining as geysers). Natural gas geysers could be mud volcanoes (those exist irl and would fit perfectly into the swamp biome imo), the chlorine geyser could be a large chunk of bleach stone with a vent (not sure about the name) etc.
As for hydrogen geysers, I remember there being mentions in the files of a plant that has hydrogen emitting buds. If it was added, it could replenish natural hydrogen reservoirs simply by growing in the wild. It would certainly be nice to have some variety like that instead of all naturally renewable resources being replenished through geysers or geyser like structures.

[brummbar7]

23 minutes ago, Michi01 said:

As for hydrogen geysers, I remember there being mentions in the files of a plant that has hydrogen emitting buds.

When I first heard about those I thought it sounds like a too OP plant, but provided it used up chlorine (now that we have a geyser) and water and fertilizer of some kind (if domesticated) it might work.  It could basically be the electroyzer (when focused on hydrogen) but without the oxygen problem.   It sounds OP, but perhaps if they never drop seeds unless dug up, so they are limited, and yet if you dig them up you can only plant them in farm tiles, so now you have the water input, that might make them a bit more balanced, maybe.

[Coolthulhu]

4 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

When I first heard about those I thought it sounds like a too OP plant, but provided it used up chlorine (now that we have a geyser) and water and fertilizer of some kind (if domesticated) it might work.  It could basically be the electroyzer (when focused on hydrogen) but without the oxygen problem.   It sounds OP, but perhaps if they never drop seeds unless dug up, so they are limited, and yet if you dig them up you can only plant them in farm tiles, so now you have the water input, that might make them a bit more balanced, maybe.

It's not OP if there are no alternatives to compare it to. So far hydrogen is only a "by"product of electrolyzer, which is really good at its job, requires no maintenance, and also produces useful oxygen.

The plants would have to be quite good at hydrogen production to beat that.

[brummbar7]

2 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

The plants would have to be quite good at hydrogen production to beat that.

Sure, as long as you want all the oxygen from it, and know exactly how to build it to maximize it, the electrolyzer can be better.   But some people don't want all that oxygen, they just want the hydrogen without having to deal with deletion and overpressurization.  The plants would be far better for that, unless they also took some water (which is already a very limited resource).  So maybe the player has the choice of trading the current 1000g of water for all that hydrogen and oxygen, or maybe they trade 200g of water for just the hydrogen.  They get the hydrogen without issue, but lose the extra water with nothing to show for it but ease of use.  That would be attractive to some people.  Not everyone is a 'pro' that knows exactly all the mechanics and exploits to use, and how to min-max the system.  I'd venture to say a majority of users just copy the stuff they see on the forums and in youtubes. 

[Coolthulhu]

Just now, brummbar7 said:

Not everyone is a 'pro' that knows exactly all the mechanics and exploits to use, and how to min-max the system.

It's the "pros" who break the system. Overpowered only really makes sense when compared against proper use of everything, not when it's just easier to utilize well. Difficulty of usage should not be considered a balancing factor.

In fact, it's good design to give new player something really good, better than the alternatives they might come up with, good enough for them to use even after they understand all game mechanics well. It avoids creation of crutches and noob traps, both of which are bad. If it appears amazingly strong early on, it's not a problem - new players could use a leg up. It's only a problem if it is still strong when used to full extent, compared to similar options likewise utilized to full extent.

[Ciderblock]

59 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

It's the "pros" who break the system. Overpowered only really makes sense when compared against proper use of everything, not when it's just easier to utilize well. Difficulty of usage should not be considered a balancing factor.

In fact, it's good design to give new player something really good, better than the alternatives they might come up with, good enough for them to use even after they understand all game mechanics well. It avoids creation of crutches and noob traps, both of which are bad. If it appears amazingly strong early on, it's not a problem - new players could use a leg up. It's only a problem if it is still strong when used to full extent, compared to similar options likewise utilized to full extent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

^is one of the few Extra Credits videos whose message has really stuck with me.

[brummbar7]

2 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

In fact, it's good design to give new player something really good, better than the alternatives they might come up with, good enough for them to use even after they understand all game mechanics well. It avoids creation of crutches and noob traps, both of which are bad. If it appears amazingly strong early on, it's not a problem - new players could use a leg up. It's only a problem if it is still strong when used to full extent, compared to similar options likewise utilized to full extent.

I don't even know what you're getting at here.  I was mulling the notion of a plant that produces hydrogen, in consistent fashion, easy for newbs to understand and use.  You seem to support that general notion but I get the impression you intended the above paragraph as countering something I was discussing?  The hydrogen plant could be exactly what your paragraph seems to support - an early option easy for newbs to understand and use for power.

As for ease of use not being considered a balance factor, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  And 'proper' use can be a pretty slippery notion in this game, at this point.  Is a usage considered 'proper' if it's been in known common use for a couple updates and Klei has done nothing to change it? I sure hope not.

[Coolthulhu]

4 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

I don't even know what you're getting at here.

I disagree with this part:

8 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

Sure, as long as you want all the oxygen from it, and know exactly how to build it to maximize it, the electrolyzer can be better.

If one option is clearly and objectively better than the others - not counting ease or tedium of use - it's a bad thing. We have enough of bad options that only serve to make the difficulty curve steeper early on.

[brummbar7]

On 10/6/2017 at 1:26 AM, Coolthulhu said:

If one option is clearly and objectively better than the others - not counting ease or tedium of use - it's a bad thing. We have enough of bad options that only serve to make the difficulty curve steeper early on.

And the suggestion of making the domesticated plant take disproportionately more water makes it *not* 'clearly and objectively' better.  If the plant is domesticated and take more water relative to the electrolyzer, then experienced players will not use it.  They'll have better more efficient options for that water.  But hydrogen gens are attractive tech for newbs due to producing no byproducts (aside from heat).  Just like the microbe musher is a newb strat that guzzles water but makes food from nothing, which experienced players know to move on from asap. 

We're discussing a hypothetical here, so the water use can be anything required to make it 'balanced'.   Now, the player could find the plant in the wild (and so no water requirement), but even if the plant doesn't use up chlorine but only requires it as an atmo, trying to use them in the wild could compel (if not force) the player to try to gather the hydrogen from as many plants as possible with one pump, to make them most efficient.  That in itself could be an endeavor if the world generation is done correctly.  AND if the plants require chlorine, the player would have to pay a little attention to any enclosure, because they risk sucking up chlorine if they don't have things set up right. 

I think you're dead wrong on not considering ease of use.  But whatever, that's a nu-uh uh-huh argument.

[Coolthulhu]

4 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

And the suggestion of making the domesticated plant take disproportionately more water makes it *not* 'clearly and objectively' better.  If the plant is domesticated and take more water relative to the electrolyzer, then experienced players will not use it.  They'll have better more efficient options for that water.  But hydrogen gens are attractive tech for newbs due to producing no byproducts (aside from heat).  Just like the microbe musher is a newb strat that guzzles water but makes food from nothing, which experienced players know to move on from asap.

And you consider it a good thing that newbs would have an extra behavior to unlearn?

So far most suboptimal options slow down learning while only pretending to help. Old mealwood, current mushed lice, algae distillers, algal terraria (they aren't all bad, just bad when used primarily), powered refrigerators (except one near mess hall), ration boxes, water filters, ore scrubbers, hydrofans, showers - while some of those are nearly obviously useless (ore scrubber), others just keep tricking new players into wasting time with things that don't work.

[brummbar7]

7 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

And you consider it a good thing that newbs would have an extra behavior to unlearn?

If someone wants more hydrogen and doesn't want the oxygen, and they have extra water to use, why should they be forced to only be able to use the electrolyzer?  It doesn't make it a bad option, just not the best option for large bases or players who are concerned about 'infinite sustainability'.    You seem to have a very myopic view of how these things should play out.  There are cases where for some, it may be worth the trade.  A difference in priorities and strategies.   Remember, it's not like I invented this hydrogen producing tree.  It's already in the code.  I'm just musing on how it could work in a balanced fashion.   This isn't even on the same level as hydrofans.    A lot of the rest of the stuff you're listing may well be improved/integrated better down the road. 

[Coolthulhu]

8 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

You seem to have a very myopic view of how these things should play out.

Quite the opposite. I describe problems that happen because of myopic view of things. With examples showing the thing I'm talking about.

8 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

There are cases where for some, it may be worth the trade.  A difference in priorities and strategies.

Everyone needs oxygen, meaning that niche would instantly be small. Water->power pathway already exists (fertilizer natgas). Not seeing what we already have - and what would that new thing have to compete with - that is a myopic view of things.

Setting up a proper hydrogen installation with the new plant would not be a trivial job. It wouldn't look much different from fertilizer synthesizer array (more compact and less isolated, but that's it). So it's not like it would be good intermediate step in base construction.

8 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

Remember, it's not like I invented this hydrogen producing tree.  It's already in the code.  I'm just musing on how it could work in a balanced fashion.

So am I. Except I do it in a more pessimistic way, because that long list of things that have tiny niches or no niches at all. A great deal of them suffers from the approach to balancing that could be summed up as "but don't make it too strong". So I'd prefer newly added things to benefit from "do make it strong enough" instead. Power creep is a bad thing, but adding things that are instantly obsolete isn't better.

I still don't get what do you not like about the idea of making a hydrogen plant good enough to compete with electrolyzer at the job of making hydrogen.

If I were trying to balance such a thing, I'd balance it not with water cost, but with additional fertilizer upkeep. So the plant would be strictly best at water->hydrogen, but require some manual labor on top.

[Sevio]

I wouldn't mind Fertilizer getting a good use again (Fertilizer -> power in this case), although it also competes with that other little-used option of feeding your fertilizer to hatches to make coal. Hopefully another rebalance of agriculture (or at least the need for better foods than meal lice) is also in the cards so that Fertilizer will also be wanted again for its primary purpose, which is food production.