How Would You Balance The Characters For PVP?

[Mario384]

As many of you know, Don't Starve Together is a game made for Co-operation.  The tweaks and balances made to all the characters were all considered with the characters being fun to play, but not ruining anyone else's experience.  But, on the other hand, PVP is something which exists in Don't Starve Together, and currently is not heavily focused on by the developers as they're working on other things.  However, I'm sure most people reading have been exposed to PVP before and most likely know that right now the power really belongs to Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, and Wigfrid, as they all have something that gives them an edge in a PVP setting.  But, what if the other 8 characters had the same capability?  Well, that's why this post exists, because I want to know your thoughts on balancing these characters.  Why, you may ask?  Well, I'm currently working on a mod to balance out PVP, and my philosophy is that the community knows best, so that's why I'm here!  Mind you, in considering suggestions, purely think about a PVP setting.  Also, there will be a list in the main post which will contain the ideas for each characters, taken from my ideas and all those from the commentary.  Feel to debate about the topic as well, as everything related to PVP character balancing is related to the thread.  So, what are you waiting for?

 

WILSON

Spoiler

- Wilson has been the staple character of DS, always being that guy with no downsides.  However, his character description states he is a "Gentlemanly Scientist", which while the first is expressed in-game, the second isn't as much.  Wilson doesn't have any intellectual creating abilities that are better than the other characters.  So, I proposes maybe Wilson would be able to make Chemical Vials, which have varying effects.  You can either drink or throw them at people to cause the effect to occur.  For example, maybe a chemical vial that does damage, or increases the size and damage of the affected temporarily.  The ideas with this are really open-ended.

-Give Wilson a mobile science machine.

- Keep Wilson normal, he's your basic character.

WILLOW

Spoiler

- Re-add Fire Immunity.  Anyone can grief as easily as a Willow, really, all they need is a torch, which is very easy to make.  This nerf was pointless.

- Give Willow a easy-to-break fire staff that can catch players and objects on fire.

WOLFGANG

Spoiler

- Can't use magic items since he's scared of magic.

- Does chores faster depending on how Mighty he is.

WENDY

Spoiler

- Perhaps a small speed boost, as Wendy is a child.

-Allow Wendy to upgrade Abigail.

- Make Abigail not so darn stupid!

WICKERBOTTOM

Spoiler

-Reduce the range of Sleepytime Stories.

- Allow Rabbit Earmuffs to block out STS.

WX-78

Spoiler

- Make gears solely craftable by WX-78 at a expensive price.

-Able to eat something else, proposed item might cost 2-5 electrical doodads.

WOODIE

Spoiler

- Make Lucy do more damage than she currently does.

- Make logs give 1 or at least some hunger when eaten.  It's a bloody log, for cripe's sake!  How can he eat so many?  How does he never get splinters on his tongue?  WHAT SORCERY IS THISSSSSS

WEREBEAVER

Spoiler

- Having Lucy on your being reduces the sanity drain to something more reasonable.

- Eating logs restores hp and maybe sanity (I mean, that's what the Beaver wants to do logically)

- Small increase in attack and/or defense

- Make it harder to achieve Werebeaver form.

WES

Spoiler

-Haha, Wes is meant to suck, silly billies.

- But, Wes could be a team support, while not being able to help himself at all, being able to help others would be a perk.  Maybe give balloons a sanity radius that applies for everyone except Wes?  I mean, everyone likes balloons, except maybe the guy that spent his life making them.

MAXWELL

Spoiler

- Maxwell's workers could use more Hp, and maybe Maxwell himself as well.

WIGFRID

Spoiler

- Prevent Wigfrid from attacking sleeping foes, as it is unhonorable.

- Possibly remove the starter spear, the helmet, the starting meat, or any combination of such.

WEBBER

Spoiler

- Increase Webber's Melee attack without weapons.  I mean, he is a spider, and they do 20 damage.

- Similar to Wendy, a small speed boost would make sense since Webber is a child.

- Remove Webber's starting Spider Den.

 

[RyanandLink]

Inb4 80 "PvP sux why would yu want to plai it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" comments that have nothing to do with the actual post and im like "PvE staler than mums leftovers #TRIGGERED"

3 hours ago, Mario384 said:

that right now the power really belongs to Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, and Wigfrid

Very true, but you're forgetting WX-78, or as I prefer to call him, OP-78 lmao
If you know how to get to the ruins or even if you're lucky by finding clockworks on the surface, you can pretty much become a god and that's not even counting the insane speedboost system overload gives.

 

3 hours ago, Mario384 said:

- Make gears solely craftable by WX-78 at a expensive price.

AHEMMM

As for Wolfgang, I think it would make sense for him to not be able to use magic items since he's scared of that stuff. I mean, he's brokenly OP as it is in mighty form-- he's a very balanced character, just not for PvP since you can just kill all the beefalo and it wouldn't matter. 

Wickerbottom... uh... I think we can all agree that world-range Sleepytime Stories could use a little nerf.

Wigfrid I think it would make a lot of sense if she can't attack sleeping enemies or can't use sleep darts/the pan flute at all, since she's always talking about how she will give her opponent a fair chance and wait until it wakes up. It's really dumb that her stereotype PvP player currently is runs from newspawn wilson with axe, runs for 3 days straight, kills day 1ers and runs from people who have a chance against her while her character is all about honour and fair battle and stuff. And finally, make her not start out with her spear and helm (she would be able to craft them later on.)

[Karmattack]

Wigfrid's spear and helmet are like half the point though, that'd be like getting rid of the worker shadows and only letting Maxwell have spear ones. 

[or1239]

This is how I would balance them.

But what I am suggesting might be better for a game mode of its own,well i think this is interesting anyway, also it has its own 'balance'.

PvP can introduce player skulls,  (there's already a skull sprite for each character in the game as you might know)

When a player die in PvP he drops that character's skull (along side his items) which could play a major part in the game and could be connected to your character ability.

Skulls hover over the recent dead body and slightly glow (so players could easily pick them up and run)

 here's a few examples for how this can work with each character.

Wilson

Spoiler

Wilson now starts off with pre-built science machine, possibly a mobile version that can be picked up or a really cheap to build version.

Wilson gets his own science points system that will be used to craft his own science exclusive weapons, what @Mario384 suggested can come into play here.

PvP disadvantage- Not getting enough science to craft something. 

special skull can be used for : skulls could be worth a lot of science points or be used to as part of an ingredient for one of his science weapon.

Willow

Spoiler

Starts off with a special fire staff that throws slow moving  fire balls that auto aims towards a selected target (to create a sort of flamethrower effect) players can outrun it but the idea is that she will throw a few at you and try to stun lock you into getting burned, maybe after awhile the fire can drop to the ground and create a small fire to be an area hazard for others.

Bernie can now be set on fire to spawn a big flaming Bernie (Annie's Tibbers much?) a burning companion that follows you around for a duration of time, after a while Bernie gets burned up entirely and turns to ashes) 

All of her special items got duration, crafting new ones is very expensive or maybe outright impossible without a skull

PvP disadvantage- 'burn out', her items can run out of duration and without them she is rather weak , she just have her burning damage delay.

special skull can be used for :crafting one of those items.

Wendy

Spoiler

( A faster abigail of course) Wendy starts off with a weak Abigail that fades in and out of existence , skulls can be given to Abigail and she will "consume them' ( they will be floating inside of her) with each skull Abigail obtain she will  become stronger.

One skull grants the Abigail we have now (but faster), 2 skulls grants a bigger Abigail with more damage and Aoe,  and so on.

Abigail can get different sprite for each version to indicate how strong she is for others.

PvP disadvantage- depended on her sister, skulls will be dropped from Abigail if she is defeated, returning her to stage 1. This makes her and her sister a juicy kill.

special skull can be used for : making her twin sister stronger.

 

 

[Mario384]

2 hours ago, or1239 said:

This is how I would balance them.

But what I am suggesting might be better for a game mode of its own,well i think this is interesting anyway, also it has its own 'balance'.

PvP can introduce player skulls,  (there's already a skull sprite for each character in the game as you might know)

When a player die in PvP he drops that character's skull (along side his items) which could play a major part in the game and could be connected to your character ability.

Skulls hover over the recent dead body and slightly glow (so players could easily pick them up and run)

 here's a few examples for how this can work with each character.

Wilson

  Reveal hidden contents

Wilson now starts off with pre-built science machine, possibly a mobile version that can be picked up or a really cheap to build version.

Wilson gets his own science points system that will be used to craft his own science exclusive weapons, what @Mario384 suggested can come into play here.

PvP disadvantage- Not getting enough science to craft something. 

special skull can be used for : skulls could be worth a lot of science points or be used to as part of an ingredient for one of his science weapon.

Willow

  Reveal hidden contents

Starts off with a special fire staff that throws slow moving  fire balls that auto aims towards a selected target (to create a sort of flamethrower effect) players can outrun it but the idea is that she will throw a few at you and try to stun lock you into getting burned, maybe after awhile the fire can drop to the ground and create a small fire to be an area hazard for others.

Bernie can now be set on fire to spawn a big flaming Bernie (Annie's Tibbers much?) a burning companion that follows you around for a duration of time, after a while Bernie gets burned up entirely and turns to ashes) 

All of her special items got duration, crafting new ones is very expensive or maybe outright impossible without a skull

PvP disadvantage- 'burn out', her items can run out of duration and without them she is rather weak , she just have her burning damage delay.

special skull can be used for :crafting one of those items.

Wendy

  Reveal hidden contents

( A faster abigail of course) Wendy starts off with a weak Abigail that fades in and out of existence , skulls can be given to Abigail and she will "consume them' ( they will be floating inside of her) with each skull Abigail obtain she will  become stronger.

One skull grants the Abigail we have now (but faster), 2 skulls grants a bigger Abigail with more damage and Aoe,  and so on.

Abigail can get different sprite for each version to indicate how strong she is for others.

PvP disadvantage- depended on her sister, skulls will be dropped from Abigail if she is defeated, returning her to stage 1. This makes her and her sister a juicy kill.

special skull can be used for : making her twin sister stronger.

 

 

Perhaps better off as a separate gamemode, but I'll add the suggestions to the list when I get home

[RyanandLink]

2 hours ago, Karmattack said:

Wigfrid's spear and helmet are like half the point though, that'd be like getting rid of the worker shadows and only letting Maxwell have spear ones. 

I meant have her not start out with the spear and helmet, she would be able to craft them later on. 

[leonseye]

Turn all character mechanics into a generic cookie-cutter, allowing the different character "choices" to essentially just be different skins of the same person (based on Wilson, as he is basically default).

No more fireproof, books, battle helms, shadows, overloads, etc.

There, now you can all be happy that nobody is any more OP than anyone else.

[Auth]

6 hours ago, Mario384 said:

WILSON

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No change. Mr. normal over here.

WILLOW

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Readd the fire immunity, to this day I never really understood it. The lighter I got, sure, but yeah.

WOLFGANG

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Can mine/chop/whatever faster and stronger the mightier he is.

WENDY

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Make abigail not an idiot half the time

WICKERBOTTOM

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I would find it interesting if "Rabbit earmuffs" or other hats could block out things such as the panflute and sleepytime stories, and would actually give them a purpose to be crafted, seeing as by the time winter rolls around you can make like 900 winter hats

WX-78

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Be able to eat something else in place of gears perhaps made of 2-5 electrical doodads

WOODIE

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- Make Lucy do more damage than she currently does. (YES)

and perhaps make logs when eaten give like... 1 hunger value. I mean come on, the guy is shoving an entire log in his stomach. It should at least do something.

WEREBEAVER

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- Having Lucy on your being reduces the sanity drain to something more reasonable.

- Eating logs restores hp and maybe sanity (I mean, that's what the Beaver wants to do logically)

- Small increase in attack and/or defense

Perhaps at the expense it takes a little longer to get into this form, but other than that, I think this is golden

THE REALLY SUCKY MIME GUY

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Make him a team healer, so that while he doesn't benefit at all from anything he can make, he can make things like "Balloon bandages" which makes him less of a leech on the team and more of someone that contributes something to everyone, while still being hardcore

MAXWELL

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- Maxwell's workers could use more Hp, and maybe Maxwell himself as well. (YES)

WIGFRID

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- Prevent Wigfrid from attacking sleeping foes, as it is unhonorable. Perhaps make her lose sanity and HP when fighting people as she doesn't naturally want to do so? Seems better than "oh well gee i'll just have to wait for them to wake up"

- Possibly remove the starter spear, the helmet, or both. (In my opinion, she should either start with her armor and spear, or just start with 4 meat. Not both.)

WEBBER

  Hide contents

Webber does not need any buffs. An experienced webber can find 1 spider den and within 10 days make so many spiders the world crashes. Make him NOT spawn with a spider den, but still be able to craft them.

I put my little twist on this

[Mario384]

1 hour ago, Weirdobob said:

I put my little twist on this

I like your suggestions, added them to the main post.  Maybe I flared them up a bit...

[Axehilt]

5 hours ago, leonseye said:

Turn all character mechanics into a generic cookie-cutter, allowing the different character "choices" to essentially just be different skins of the same person (based on Wilson, as he is basically default).

No more fireproof, books, battle helms, shadows, overloads, etc.

There, now you can all be happy that nobody is any more OP than anyone else.

Your boss gives you an unusual task.

• He shows you a scale with 100 lbs of feathers on one side.
• Your job is to balance the scale without moving any feathers.
• 100 lbs of wooden planks are nearby.

What do you do?

A. Freak out because where the hell are you going to find another 100 lbs worth of feathers?!

B. Calmly start placing the planks (because you understand balance doesn't mean the two sides will be completely identical; you know asymmetric balance can exist)

I just really don't understand how people can still have that opinion.  Either you're very new to gaming and haven't played much, or you're stuck with pre-1990s-era PVP opinions (the 1990s were when asymmetrically balanced games really started increasing in popularity: Starcraft, Street Fighter 2 and other fighting games, HoM&M, Magic the Gathering, etc.)  Since then there have been thousands of PVP games balanced asymmetrically; just seems like a super outdated opinion or the opinion of a new gamer who hasn't experienced a lot of variety yet.

That said, PVP character balance is mostly just a waste of time.  There are severe fundamental flaws preventing DST PVP from ever really being good PVP like that found in PVP-focused games (Street Fighter, Starcraft, Overwatch, etc) and yet DST's PVE is fantastic.  Spending dev hours on PVP is like getting a medical degree and choosing to work as a baker when you graduate. It's like being in an RPG and choosing all the 2-handed melee weapon traits, and then wielding a dagger.  It's just tragically inefficient for them to try to improve the doomed PVP when the same dev hours spent improving the game's fantastic PVE would go dramatically farther.

[leonseye]

34 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

(because you understand balance doesn't mean the two sides will be completely identical; you know asymmetric balance can exist)\

As an avid PvPer in many games; notable in some, I find it interesting that you'd say this.

Asymmetric balance is the holy grail of PvP games.  It's often chased, but never actually achieved outside of a few rare gems, usually in the RTS, FPS, or fighting game genres.  And even those games regularly receive balancing changes.

What I understand is that trying to shoehorn that type of balance into a game like this will simply leave devs chasing their tails to try to please an unpleasable crowd (because what some feel is balanced, others inevitably will not).  

Look at what happened to Willow, and the overwhelming outcry that nerfing her into oblivion would somehow stop griefers from burning things.  Did it?  What about good ol' Woodie?  They pretty much murdered his Werebeaver form for the sake of PvP balance.  Is he balanced now?

There's a reason that even the most profitable and popular PvP games still receive regular balance updating.

However, I do appreciate you making the assumption that I'm some kind of moron who can't understand basic PvP balancing.  Thanks for that.

Ironic, considering that you went on to make the exact point that I did, which is that PvP is never going to be balanced in this game outside of just stripping out everything that makes the characters fun and unique, which I don't think anybody wants.

PS) You mention games like Starcraft, Street Fighter, and Overwatch?  Starcraft took HOW MANY YEARS to achieve the balance that is heralded as the closest to perfect in gaming?

Starcraft 2's David Kim has gone on record more than once talking about the impossible act of balancing that game as well.  

Street Fighter has flat-out officially stated that they will do balance changes at the end of EVERY year.  

Overwatch just launched and, of course, is still going through its balancing act, so I'm not sure why that's even worth mentioning.

And those are all games that had PvP balance in mind from the very offset, and while well-tuned, still have not and likely will never actually attain that goal of "balance".  Just a bit of food for thought from somebody who must be either too old or too young to have ever PvP'd, apparently.

[CaptainChaotica]

Seriously, ANYbody can burn stuff by making just one torch.  The only difference between Original-Flavour Willow and any other character is that Willow could stand right there in the flames, next to you, as your character dies, and everyone else would have to dodge out of the way.

Considering the damage that can be done by lighting just _one_ tree in the wrong place, it really made no sense to nerf the lighter--only a _tiny_ bit of fire is needed to do all the damage necessary. So at that point, limited, infinite, what's the difference?  Everything's already burned anyway.

As for assymetrically balanced PvP, I would have no idea how to achieve that, in Don't Starve or any other game.  I tend to stay out of PvP entirely because of the existence of griefers. The brief times I _have_ tried PvP in the past, I have run into one of those INSTANTLY, and it ruined the entire game for me.  It's hard enough starting off in a PvP environment as a Level 1 character who has nothing; it's PAINFUL trying to get anywhere with even your _starting_ equipment gone, because some jackarse Level 43 character killed you just because he could.  In some games, if you die, you lose so much you're starting off from in a HOLE, and you can never, ever even try to climb out--let alone progress--because SOME JACKARSE KEEPS KILLING YOU.

Spay or neuter your griefer today!

The only solution to this I've seen is in the few games where you're only allowed to attack those within your basic level bracket, but those seem to be quite rare.  And no, it doesn't mean you'd be so balanced there's no point, because same level doesn't mean "same equipment" or "happened to level up same skills/stats in the same amounts".  Not to mention the whole microtransaction/"pay to win" thing...

...Notorious

[Kuirem]

There is some really interesting points made here and I try to give it some thought. I did some PvP in Don't Starve but I admit it is not my knack.

The big problem is how we are trying to balance it. As Axehilt and leonseye said Don't Starve is not fit for your classic Fist to Face PvP, Don't Starve combat system is just too clumsy for that. Reworking the Combat system to allow PvP would require too much time so should we give up on PvP? I don't think so.

PvP in Don't Starve should be more than just punching each other to death, although the only way to die is to get out of health there is more than one way to reach that point : Hunger, Nightmare Monster, Lightning, etc... so here is my idea : specialize the character around that, Willow will be specialized in Fire damage and overheating her opponents, Maxwell could create Insanity aura, Wilson could create potion to drain Hunger, Werebeaver increase his opponent Wetness (slippery weapons and sanity drain). There is a lot of possibilities and to balanced that? Give them weaknesses. Maxwell is already weak to direct damage, Wolfgang will be vulnerable against Hunger drain, Wigfrid could become extra vulnerable against Lightning (you know because using a Spear and a Helmet plated with Gold!), Willow against Sanity drain... Of course it would still need some tweaking around notably because some of these stuff have easy counter (good luck draining the Food meter of a Wolfgang with 20 Bacon & Eggs on him) but I think it could even be done in a mod.

To resume I think PvP in Don't Starve should use all the survival elements from the game. Right now it is mostly punch people to death (after putting them asleep eventually). Hunger, Freezing, Overheating, Wetness, Insanity, Lightning, there is more than enough stuff already in game to use.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

I think the powerful ones are fine as they are, just give back the perks that haven't been taken off certain characters:

- Give back Willows infinite lighter (if she can't fight, at least let her run forever) and take out her stupid sanity freezing thing, GAH! So stupid.

- Make Woody cool again. Take off that stupid log meter, make him strong when he is Beaver form and an actual benefit to PVP, something that can stand against a Wolfgang.

- Maybe make Wendy's sister's stronger?  

[Mario384]

15 hours ago, RyanandLink said:

Inb4 80 "PvP sux why would yu want to plai it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" comments that have nothing to do with the actual post and im like "PvE staler than mums leftovers #TRIGGERED"

Oh jeez, I'm sorry for doubting you.

Anywho, could we please maintain the topic?  This topic was for PVP Character Balancing, and not what I quoted up above.  Thanks.

[CaptainChaotica]

I agree with Kuirem; victory in Don't Starve has ALWAYS been about strategy and guile!  So of course it makes sense that PvP would work the same way.  I mean, lead one dangerous thing to another and let them fight each other _for_ you is standard procedure in Don't Starve; about the only way you CAN live, much of the time, is to sneak, bribe and hide.  Direct confrontation doesn't usually work that well re:  one character vs. a whole tier-3 spider den, for example. 

So yeah.  Burn forests, trap other players outside so they die of darkness/cold/heat, lead into dens of dangerous creatures, make temporary alliances and, if all else fails, make your opponents suffer by grabbing all the resources! 

Don't Starve PvP:  The REAL Hunger Games.

...Notorious

[Arlesienne]

One suggestion as I hardly care for PvP (agreeing with @axehilt that DST should not focus on PvP as its interest lies elsewhere - TOGETHER is not some random addition to the singleplayer title and PvP in real life outside of the great fiction of Tales of Life and Death tends to turn it into smithereens): bring the deadly feast back. Call it "MEATY STEW?" and go make elaborate traps. I bet it would make for some interesting, more brain-based showdowns.

Willow and Woodie nerfing could have been easily avoided, maybe with including a smaller nerf of the beaver and slightly decreasing Willow's fire immunity (so that you cannot burn a forest in the long winter night and stand still in the middle of it while showing Charlie a rude gesture - oops, the moment I wrote it, I started longing for a picture like this). The balance discussion is wildly interesting, but more complex than you all think. There are elements of the system of gratification on various levels, the paradigm of ethics in the player-character relation, a lot of stuff you would gruesomely murder me for elaborating on. Still, the ideas you proposed sound fun. Maybe some modders could make mods with such perks?

[Schism_989]

25 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

One suggestion as I hardly care for PvP (agreeing with @axehilt that DST should not focus on PvP as its interest lies elsewhere - TOGETHER is not some random addition to the singleplayer title and PvP in real life outside of the great fiction of Tales of Life and Death tends to turn it into smithereens): bring the deadly feast back. Call it "MEATY STEW?" and go make elaborate traps. I bet it would make for some interesting, more brain-based showdowns.

Willow and Woodie nerfing could have been easily avoided, maybe with including a smaller nerf of the beaver and slightly decreasing Willow's fire immunity (so that you cannot burn a forest in the long winter night and stand still in the middle of it while showing Charlie a rude gesture - oops, the moment I wrote it, I started longing for a picture like this). The balance discussion is wildly interesting, but more complex than you all think. There are elements of the system of gratification on various levels, the paradigm of ethics in the player-character relation, a lot of stuff you would gruesomely murder me for elaborating on. Still, the ideas you proposed sound fun. Maybe some modders could make mods with such perks?

Smaller nerfs would be much more appreciated by the community. The Werebeaver and Willow were absolutely butchered. Willow in DST is now merely just a shadow of her former self. Her lighter is basically just a more expensive torch now rather than a character specific item. What's next? They add durability to Lucy? It's basically just a faster axe. Would it make sense to add durabiliy to Lucy? No? Yeah, that wouldn't make sense. Willow should recieve a little bit more fire resistance, maybe a slower health drain, or a longer period of time you're able to stand in fire. Hell, at least fix the lighter.

[CaptainChaotica]

23 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

Willow and Woodie nerfing could have been easily avoided, maybe with including a smaller nerf of the beaver and slightly decreasing Willow's fire immunity (so that you cannot burn a forest in the long winter night and stand still in the middle of it while showing Charlie a rude gesture - oops, the moment I wrote it, I started longing for a picture like this).

Hahah!  That is almost EXACTLY what I did that one time--well, minus the rude gesture. But I did set fire to a forest in winter and then ran through it without a care--because I had left my winter hat and thermal stone at home. : P  Amusingly, this was part of my longest run so far.

Being able to just LAUGH in the face of total destruction is one of the things that makes playing Willow fun!  So my picture, if I drew one, would probably have her with hands on hips and head thrown back, laughing maniacally, against a background of flames--rather than flipping off the darkness.  But, that would be more in-character with the game.  Heh.

ANYway.  You're precisely right that making PvP satisfying and fun is more complicated than we've talked about so far--for example, first you have to first keep in mind what kind of rules, balance and feel would be fitting for the specific game you're talking about.  Then there's the fact that different players get fun from different things--one might be the direct gun-to-the-face burly marine type, another might go "Hey, you other Level 10 players!  Let's get 7 of us together and go attack that Level 70 guy!" and still another might be the leap down from the trees with a poison dagger type. 

Some like power, some like strategy.  Some like high stakes, others PvP just for a fancy title on a leaderboard.  And some do it just to check off that one last achievement.  (As I did in Kingdom of Loathing in the old, old, oooolllld days when PvP was completely different, and you could get a trophy for it just by, of all things, stealing _toast_ 12 times.)

My point is, there are all kinds of gamers, and it's REALLY hard to please them all.  Or even most.

(And Schism?  Ohmygod, I could not agree with you more.  As anybody who's been reading my posts for a while here knows.  : P)

...Notorious

[Arlesienne]

44 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Hahah!  That is almost EXACTLY what I did that one time--well, minus the rude gesture. But I did set fire to a forest in winter and then ran through it without a care--because I had left my winter hat and thermal stone at home. : P  Amusingly, this was part of my longest run so far.

Being able to just LAUGH in the face of total destruction is one of the things that makes playing Willow fun!  So my picture, if I drew one, would probably have her with hands on hips and head thrown back, laughing maniacally, against a background of flames--rather than flipping off the darkness.  But, that would be more in-character with the game.  Heh.

ANYway.  You're precisely right that making PvP satisfying and fun is more complicated than we've talked about so far--for example, first you have to first keep in mind what kind of rules, balance and feel would be fitting for the specific game you're talking about.  Then there's the fact that different players get fun from different things--one might be the direct gun-to-the-face burly marine type, another might go "Hey, you other Level 10 players!  Let's get 7 of us together and go attack that Level 70 guy!" and still another might be the leap down from the trees with a poison dagger type. 

Some like power, some like strategy.  Some like high stakes, others PvP just for a fancy title on a leaderboard.  And some do it just to check off that one last achievement.  (As I did in Kingdom of Loathing in the old, old, oooolllld days when PvP was completely different, and you could get a trophy for it just by, of all things, stealing _toast_ 12 times.)

My point is, there are all kinds of gamers, and it's REALLY hard to please them all.  Or even most.

(And Schism?  Ohmygod, I could not agree with you more.  As anybody who's been reading my posts for a while here knows.  : P)

...Notorious

Could you describe this in a private message please? You always raise such good points and your stories are interesting, but I don't want to hijack the thread.

My point is: DST has different priorities than PvP. To make that mode even remotely "balanced", Klei would pretty much have to create a new game like they were forced to as implementing multiplayer into DS was too difficult.

[CaptainChaotica]

Describe what--the Kingdom of Loathing thing?  That's the only bit in my post that would hijack the thread.  Short version for here:  KoL is a comedy game with a lot of quirky, bizzare things that you just take for granted after a while, and stealing toast in PvP fits right in.  (Or used to, as that was a long time ago and their PvP is now WAY more robust/complex.) 

To give you an idea...the  currency of the Kingdom is _meat_, of all things (for an It Made Sense At the Time type of reason).  So the first time I saw "Resurrect yourself with the power of meat!" in Don't Starve, I immediately thought of that and fell over laughing.  : P  The power of meat compells you!  Gotta get them sweet, sweet cutlets, yo.

Incidentally, my DST screen-name is the same as my KoL character's name.

(See?  I CAN find ways to bring it back on track!)

...Notorious

 

 

[Arlesienne]

25 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Describe what--the Kingdom of Loathing thing?  That's the only bit in my post that would hijack the thread.  Short version for here:  KoL is a comedy game with a lot of quirky, bizzare things that you just take for granted after a while, and stealing toast in PvP fits right in.  (Or used to, as that was a long time ago and their PvP is now WAY more robust/complex.) 

To give you an idea...the  currency of the Kingdom is _meat_, of all things (for an It Made Sense At the Time type of reason).  So the first time I saw "Resurrect yourself with the power of meat!" in Don't Starve, I immediately thought of that and fell over laughing.  : P  The power of meat compells you!  Gotta get them sweet, sweet cutlets, yo.

Incidentally, my DST screen-name is the same as my KoL character's name.

(See?  I CAN find ways to bring it back on track!)

...Notorious

Amazing, I bow to thee this very moment!

[CaptainChaotica]

Hee.  Actually, the only reason I didn't use "Captain Chaotica" (my most-used online name) is because it got cut off in the in-game chat and looked stupid.  So I went with another one that also "means me". 

As for PvP...I always play cooperatively, and I agree that Don't Starve Together works way better that way.  I'm actually a very nice player--not necessarily good AT it; I can't guarantee that I won't suddenly die and drain your sanity.  But if I have something you need more than I do, I'll just give it (or some of it) without even being asked.  Meat to a hungry-looking Wigfrid, green mushrooms/cactus to a head-holding Wickerbottom, or a parasol to a WX-78 huddling pathetically under a tree in the rain--I've done all of those.  (In that last case, it was a world REALLY low on twigs and grass, so no, he probably could not have made his own parasol--at least, not before getting damaged a fair bit.)

So, yeah...I'm not really the person to ask about PvP, in terms of actual experience.  But I do understand something about human nature and basic game theory.  (shrug)

...Notorious

[Arlesienne]

3 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Hee.  Actually, the only reason I didn't use "Captain Chaotica" (my most-used online name) is because it got cut off in the in-game chat and looked stupid.  So I went with another one that also "means me". 

As for PvP...I always play cooperatively, and I agree that Don't Starve Together works way better that way.  I'm actually a very nice player--not necessarily good AT it; I can't guarantee that I won't suddenly die and drain your sanity.  But if I have something you need more than I do, I'll just give it (or some of it) without even being asked.  Meat to a hungry-looking Wigfrid, green mushrooms/cactus to a head-holding Wickerbottom, or a parasol to a WX-78 huddling pathetically under a tree in the rain--I've done all of those.  (In that last case, it was a world REALLY low on twigs and grass, so no, he probably could not have made his own parasol--at least, not before getting damaged a fair bit.)

So, yeah...I'm not really the person to ask about PvP, in terms of actual experience.  But I do understand something about human nature and basic game theory.  (shrug)

...Notorious

And this is the kind of players we love the game for :).

[RyanandLink]

3 hours ago, Mario384 said:

Oh jeez, I'm sorry for doubting you.

Spoiler

I wasn't actually being ironic either