[Suggestion] Remove Craftable Dragoon Dens

[WillPwn4Food]

I usually say leave as many options open and the player can choose whether he or she capitalizes on them or not. Not with Dragoon Dens.

It has been said plenty of times that the Volcano is lacking. I disagree. I think it offers too much. Think about it: You can

1. Dig up ashy turf and coffee plants to plant back at your base

2. Wear the brain of thought for the volcanic tab

3. Built your own Dragoon Dens back at your base (and for very cheap too)

Of course there is nothing interesting left in the Volcano once you've raided it; it gives you everything it has to offer for you to own yourself. That is why I suggest REMOVING Dragoon Dens from the crafting tab.

If this were done, you would have to venture back to the volcano for a dragoon cleansing once you had used up all your obsidian tools. There would be a reason to return to the Volcano again. This would also make the eruptions advantageous as you could bring dragoons, although not a dragoon spawner, right by your base. Then with the brain of thought, crafting obsidian tools during dry season would be actually very convenient.

I was actually very surprised when I first learned you could craft dragoon dens because there is nothing like that in the base game, except for bunnymen who are friendly (not to say SW should parallel vanilla in every way). I have chosen not build dragoon dens in my game and have found it much more enjoyable that way.

[PhelsarusBeel]

Disagree with it.

Just keeping the Dragoons inside the Volcano doesn't change the fact that it's lacking in content and just leaving 1 ressource in the Volcano doesn't make it more interesting and worth returning.

For example why do you go back down to the Caves and Ruins in the Regular Worlds/RoG? For once because there are ressources down there that you can't get otherwise such as Lightbulbs, Slurper Pelts, Slurtles, Thulecite Gear and easy acces to Nightmarefuel.

And i know i just contradicted myself however remember that you can also bring Bunnymans outside of the Caves and to the Surface as well.

No what the Volcano needs is MORE stuff that actually makes it worth going back to and not just that 1 dinky little ressource called Dragoons. Becuase what do they give you? Obsidian and their Hearts both ressources i consider luxury items that i don't really need to make my bases sure they are nice and helpfull but not nessesary.

The Volcano needs more things like the aformentioned Cavecreatures and items.

For example you could make a type of Lavacycle inside of the Volcano similar to the tide where you have days where the Lava is higher and makes some terrain impassible but once it reverts back down you find new rocks formed unter it. This would help to give you a steady income of minerals and it would make it a lot more worthwhile to go into the Volcano. At least that's an idea i could see easily be implemented and a reason i would go into the Volcano from time to time easy acces to replenishable minerals a ressource that is really hard to come by in SW.

[WillPwn4Food]

@Mr.P

You're right about lacking content as some more stuff would be nice, but considering what we have right now (and how that will probably be all we get), the best we can do is consider how we might "stretch" what is there now.

As much as we want to compare to vanilla, that is a $20 game. This is a $5 DLC. I wish it were a $7.5 DLC or $10-$15 expansion, as most of us do, but it's not. Trust me, I'd love if all the stuff you mentioned were added, but we have to think realistically about things

[Moon64]

I disagree with removing the ability to craft dragoon dens. I do believe there should be more reason to visit the volcano though. 

But to be honest and in the same vain, is there any reason to go to the ruins after clearing them out?

I wouldn't be surprised if a larger update was eventually rolled out similar to how caves/ruins were added.

[PhelsarusBeel]

Just now, WillPwn4Food said:

@Mr.P

You're right about lacking content as some more stuff would be nice, but considering what we have right now (and how that will probably be all we get), the best we can do is consider how we might "stretch" what is there now.

As much as we want to compare to vanilla, that is a $20 game. This is a $5 DLC. I wish it were a $7.5 DLC or $10-$15 expansion, as most of us do, but it's not. Trust me, I'd love if all the stuff you mentioned were added, but we have to think realistically about things

That's why I'm personally pushing the Idea of extending SW development cycle because it doesn't have that finished feel that Vanilla and RoG have.

And just because the Roadmap tells us that it's over is not true at all. I'm working as an Engineer and trust me you never will keep your deadlines no matter how generous you set them. And even then i would never deliver a product when i'm very aware of the fact that my Costumers won't be completly happy with the result because that just results in disstrust in my abilitys as an Engineer.

If Capy will just leave SW as it is well i'm sorry to be this harsh but i will never purchase another one of their games in Early Acces no matter what other companies are involved because they showed me that they only work for the minimum requirements and won't try to get satisfied customers. Because SW as it stands has buckets of problems that need to be addressed to make harnest it's maximum potential but the real culrpint always has been the Roadmap because 4 months no matter how good of a developer you are is not enought time to produce the type of content we expect from something with the Don't Starve name attached to it.

[AnonymousKoala]

42 minutes ago, Mr.P said:

That's why I'm personally pushing the Idea of extending SW development cycle because it doesn't have that finished feel that Vanilla and RoG have.

And just because the Roadmap tells us that it's over is not true at all. I'm working as an Engineer and trust me you never will keep your deadlines no matter how generous you set them. And even then i would never deliver a product when i'm very aware of the fact that my Costumers won't be completly happy with the result because that just results in disstrust in my abilitys as an Engineer.

If Capy will just leave SW as it is well i'm sorry to be this harsh but i will never purchase another one of their games in Early Acces no matter what other companies are involved because they showed me that they only work for the minimum requirements and won't try to get satisfied customers. Because SW as it stands has buckets of problems that need to be addressed to make harnest it's maximum potential but the real culrpint always has been the Roadmap because 4 months no matter how good of a developer you are is not enought time to produce the type of content we expect from something with the Don't Starve name attached to it.

Same here. sw is really far from content complete.

43 minutes ago, Moon64 said:

I disagree with removing the ability to craft dragoon dens. I do believe there should be more reason to visit the volcano though. 

But to be honest and in the same vain, is there any reason to go to the ruins after clearing them out?

I wouldn't be surprised if a larger update was eventually rolled out similar to how caves/ruins were added.

The ruins have a reason to be visited again later on because of the pseudoscience machine.

Brain of thought makes this trick not work with the volcano though, so we need a new mechanic(brain of thought shouldn't be removed) to keep you there.

Ruins works because its horrible and hates you, but you need to be there to make it's awesome stuff.

[Moon64]

17 minutes ago, AnonymousKoala said:

Same here. sw is really far from content complete.

The ruins have a reason to be visited again later on because of the pseudoscience machine.

Brain of thought makes this trick not work with the volcano though, so we need a new mechanic(brain of thought shouldn't be removed) to keep you there.

Ruins works because its horrible and hates you, but you need to be there to make it's awesome stuff.

Brain of Thought also works for ruins items.

[Hezel]

Why would you ask for Klei to remove content ? For what reason ?

[WillPwn4Food]

15 minutes ago, Hezel said:

Why would you ask for Klei to remove content ? For what reason ?

...the reasons listed in the OP...?

[Hundkerchief]

I don't understand those "I could so I had to" people. 

It's a shame if the complete removal of the Dragoon Den recipe is the only safeguard preventing you from exploiting the game. 

[Veyred]

they should definetly  not be craftable you can farm their loot way to easy this way.

[stl1234]

8 hours ago, WillPwn4Food said:

There would be a reason to return to the Volcano again.

Making things difficult in order to force people to do something is the opposite of fun. As others have said making the volcano more interesting should be done by adding things, maybe in the next DLC, not by removing things so you have to visit.

7 hours ago, Mr.P said:

I'm working as an Engineer and trust me you never will keep your deadlines no matter how generous you set them. And even then i would never deliver a product when i'm very aware of the fact that my Costumers won't be completly happy with the result because that just results in disstrust in my abilitys as an Engineer.

If you are really an engineer, you must also know the value of planning. If you have enough experience with development, you must also know that you can't make your customers completely happy. Just extending development to add more things to make people happy is not going to work. People have attempted this before, it inevitably turns into a product that is either released too late and became irrelevant, or runs out of funding and released with major issues caused by bunch of halfway functional afterthought features that are full of bugs. It is almost always better to plan, build and deliver, then building on top of what exists by planning new things, and repeating the cycle.

[WillPwn4Food]

2 hours ago, stl1234 said:

Making things difficult in order to force people to do something is the opposite of fun. As others have said making the volcano more interesting should be done by adding things, maybe in the next DLC, not by removing things so you have to visit.

Imagine back in vanilla if you could craft slurtle mounds, ancient pseudoscience machines, etc., and then if I made a post about how those structures should be removed. Your comment would apply to that post, but I bet you wouldn't mean it anymore (I'm putting words in your mouth now so I'm sorry if this is incorrect). Now those who want to mod those craftable are welcome to, but as far as the way the game is intended to be played, those resources aren't supposed to be easily accessible. Would you say the same if moving the Yarrctopus could be done? What about craftable slot machines? What about moving the Volcano? (Aside from breaking DS "realism," would you take issue with such mechanics?)

I think it's a matter of perspective. Now that we've already been given dragoon dens, of course we don't want to give them up. Same would be with the slurtle mounds (imagine the imbalance of slurtle farms and all the shelmets you could get) and pseudoscience machines if we had originally been given them, but then they were taken away. And regarding my SW examples of the Yarrctopus, slot machine, and volcano, there would be an outcry if Capy removed the feature to bring them to your base, but right now we accept them as they are (granted, we have been asking for a little more). In fact, the challenge of discovery is what brings the feeling of reward. More challenge and effort, when balanced properly, can yield great feelings of accomplishment.

Now taking this outside of solely DS, "Making things difficult in order to force people to do something is the opposite of fun." Maybe you could expand on what you mean and to what degree because this statement in and of itself doesn't hold water (not trying to offend). Think about it, though: we can extend that principle to anything that makes a game challenging (and consequently rewarding). By this principle, it could be said that MMO's are the opposite of fun because you have to work so hard to level up your character and acquire high-tier gear (i.e. more difficult).

For the second part of what you said, if all those new interesting things could be removed and created in your base, would not people still say the volcano is uninteresting? Perhaps it would hold our attention longer, but it would still become obsolete after a few extra days. When does leaving things difficult add to the reward and enjoyment of the game, rather than detract from it?

I may not have completed my thoughts entirely, but I feel I've written enough. Please respond because I want to understand where you think the perfect balance of difficulty and reward lies.

[AnonymousKoala]

9 hours ago, Moon64 said:

Brain of Thought also works for ruins items.

But there's the convience aspect of it.

For ruins you have to: Go to SW, make BoT(which'll take some time), go to RoG, get thulecite and other ingrediants, which is also still unrenewable.

Now, lets compare that to the volcano. The Brainy Sprout exists in the same world as the Volcano. In fact multiples of it and the other ingredients exist. The things needed to craft these dont even require being in the volcano thanks to dragoon dens being craftable, and they're all quite easily renewable, meaning you can repeat this easily. 

[stl1234]

24 minutes ago, WillPwn4Food said:

I'm putting words in your mouth

Yes, and you shouldn't do that. Do you think caves/ruins are interesting because you have to re-visit them, or because you want to revisit them?

 

28 minutes ago, WillPwn4Food said:

Maybe you could expand on what you mean

The highlight in that statement is about being forced, not being difficult.

Difficulty for reward works only if the difficulty is real, and reward is worth it. Volcano is not difficult. Having to go there to get more obsidian/dragon hearts is just manual labor, there is no significant challenge for significant reward.

Volcano isn't interesting not because you don't have to visit it again, but because there is nothing new to do in it after spending just a few days. Yes, your proposal makes people visit it more, but it doesn't make it interesting. In contrast, caves and ruins both provide continuous challenge, and give a lot of space to explore (= things to do). Either way, there is a feeling of accomplishment in those. There is no accomplishment in volcano after you get coffee and obsidian.

To be clear, I don't think we have to be able to craft dragoon dens. It doesn't matter much either way. My point is, having the volcano a location that needs to be visited multiple times does not make it interesting. So the change you are proposing doesn't solve the problem you are targeting.

[PhelsarusBeel]

10 hours ago, stl1234 said:

If you are really an engineer, you must also know the value of planning. If you have enough experience with development, you must also know that you can't make your customers completely happy. Just extending development to add more things to make people happy is not going to work. People have attempted this before, it inevitably turns into a product that is either released too late and became irrelevant, or runs out of funding and released with major issues caused by bunch of halfway functional afterthought features that are full of bugs. It is almost always better to plan, build and deliver, then building on top of what exists by planning new things, and repeating the cycle.

True however there is also something you have to consider and that's consumer/customer expectency aka what does my Customer expect from my product.

And this is the point that Capy seemed to have misscalculated because when we get New Worlds we have a certaint level of expectency on what we want from them. Becuase again SW doesn't feature the amount of content we expect from a DLC of it's size.

They basicly chewed more then they could swallow trying to deliver us a brand new world isn't an easy task heck a lot of Modders probably now that best.

Also again the Roadmap here is the real culprint it states pretty obviously that the next patch will be the final deal after that SW is considerd feature complete and ready for release and i doubt that Capy will continue to work on it after that. That's why many people say this now that SW needs to stay in EA a bit longer because it's not ready it's not finished it's not at a level of Quality that we want from it. Sure you can't make everyone happy but when the majority, and at this point it's the majority, of your Customers tells you that your product isn't at a satisfying quality level then you should consider to continue to work on it until you made at least the majority of them happy. That's the thing Capy needs to do increase the development time so both them and the Community can create an Expansion that the majority of players is happy with.

[Prakhar]

1 hour ago, Mr.P said:

True however there is also something you have to consider and that's consumer/customer expectency aka what does my Customer expect from my product.

And this is the point that Capy seemed to have misscalculated because when we get New Worlds we have a certaint level of expectency on what we want from them. Becuase again SW doesn't feature the amount of content we expect from a DLC of it's size.

They basicly chewed more then they could swallow trying to deliver us a brand new world isn't an easy task heck a lot of Modders probably now that best.

Also again the Roadmap here is the real culprint it states pretty obviously that the next patch will be the final deal after that SW is considerd feature complete and ready for release and i doubt that Capy will continue to work on it after that. That's why many people say this now that SW needs to stay in EA a bit longer because it's not ready it's not finished it's not at a level of Quality that we want from it. Sure you can't make everyone happy but when the majority, and at this point it's the majority, of your Customers tells you that your product isn't at a satisfying quality level then you should consider to continue to work on it until you made at least the majority of them happy. That's the thing Capy needs to do increase the development time so both them and the Community can create an Expansion that the majority of players is happy with.

That EA just reminded of a review i saw on steam:

'If EA made this game, it would cost 89.99"

I have a low sense of humor and i chuckled at it.