Your opinion on PvP

[Moon64]

On 1/26/2016 at 8:50 AM, artemiyME said:

I support all the points above from Psi, one thing I would like to ask is, i know there is a mod that removes pan flute from game, isn't there a mod (or could be a mod) that removes STS recipe from the game as well? Also i wonder how much modding can be done to fix other issues with balancing.

- art

Remove STS and you'll just have a bunch of Wolfgangs and Wigfrids running around. From my experience, a mighty Wolfgang and Wicker with sleeps are an almost even fight.

Honestly, we just need an anti-sleep item. Another legitimate strat would be burning all the reeds in a swamp before Wicker has a chance to gather books. Sherman's March so to speak.

Rabbit earmuffs, as mentioned previously, could be used to combat sleep. As it stands, I've only after crafted earmuffs when I've had Winter starts and needed something to get me by between burning trees.

I also want to start using tent books to fight combat loggers. Log off? Here's 10-15 tentacles waiting for you when you log back on:)

I'd like to see some of the character buffed in PVP that wouldn't affect co-op. For example, having Abigail do more damage to player characters would make Wendy more viable without altering non-PVP. Make were beaver less terrible so Woody isn't bottom tier in both PVP and co-op. Bring back a little bit of Willow's old strats.

I'd also like the Bush hat to hide the characters icon on the map.

[Nickolas2600]

7 hours ago, Hezel said:

How can you claim to dislike, or formulate an opinion on something you've likely never tried before ?

I have tried PvP before. I didn't like it I feel it doesn't belong in the game since i believe this is a more cooperative based game. Also please note this is my OPINION. Just because I say i don't like it doesn't mean it is bad. The OP clearly wanted opinions so I gave mine.

[SuperPsiPower]

17 hours ago, MikeyMusic said:

I think you misunderstood what you thought I misunderstood. I may not have been entirely clear about this at first but did point out later on that my particular issue is with the changes that would need to take place to really make PVP a fully balanced and fleshed out experience. Stuff like balancing character stats, adding/removing/changing items... Things that would likewise affect coop because they're actually changes to the game itself, not just PVP game mode. So you say "if you don't want to play PVP then just don't turn it on!" But I don't think you realize that, from what I can see, if an overall change is made to benefit PVP gaming, such as Wolfgang losing his hunger weakness/benefit, it's not as simple as just turning off PVP. That adjustment will be present whether PVP is there or not, but while it might benefit PVP, it sorely decreases the enjoyability of Wolfgang on coop. So at that point, I am effectively a subject of the PVP changes whether I have the option on or not.

I think some people might think I'm opposed to PVP, and that's incorrect. I appreciate the presence of the ability to hit people with a good tentacle spike a time or two. I'm going to say this again though, and hope nobody else misunderstands me: DST is already an ongoing project of balancing out characters, enemies, items, and environments while retaining the feel and challenge of the original Don't Starve + ROG. I am not against PVP at all, but I don't want the balancing to be made in favor of PVP over coop/non-confrontational survival in such a way that the other game modes actually become weaker or compromised. In addition to this, I'm also able to identify that, in order to make PVP a really good mechanic, a lot of things already existing in DST will just have to be rebalanced. 

i fully agree that DST could use some better PVP and am not at all trying to bash anybody for wanting improved PVP. If Klei can actually make great PVP and retain the games integrity, I would be incredibly happy! My personal qualm is the fact that, in order to truly suit DST for fun and strategized PVP, compromises would probably need to be made that affect nonPVP as well. And that's just a big no, because even with PVP on its only a small portion of everything you have to take care of while playing.

 

also, just to point out: everything you listed (beside the Ewecus) is either something that was already made for single player DS or doesn't affect actual gameplay.

You didn't hear my initial point. Since when did I ever say "Let's change the characters in Co-op along with PVP!". I like how the characters are now for Co-op, don't get me wrong. As I said, If you don't wanna play PVP, nobody if forcing you to. And the changes most likely won't affect Co-op as well. And I agree with you 100% that its hard to suss out real issues of Balancing, adding new enemies, mechanics. However, you must understand from a veteran player(s) perspective that after surviving, the game tends to get really boring as you're left with that small feeling of "I've come this far, so what now?". PVP is fun because it shows what you can do when faced with intelligent players instead of Mobs. I don't want Don't Starve Together to become like Reign of Giants did. We got new content, but after playing it all the time, most people barely even touched it and let it sit there in their Steam Library. (Luckily SW brought back that feeling of "I'll do my best!".)

 

I'm glad that this Topic was made, because not only are we having a friendly debate, we are showing people and others the real problem with PVP and how it could affect Co-op in the near future, and hopefully Klei sees this thread and sees what the Community wants and does NOT want. 

Also, 

Quote

just to point out: everything you listed (beside the Ewecus) is either something that was already made for single player DS or doesn't affect actual gameplay.

I wasn't saying how it was connected to single-player, or how Gameplay was altered. I was listing the amount of accomplishments of Together that will hopefully have PVP balance soon.  

[MikeyMusic]

8 hours ago, SuperPsiPower said:

You didn't hear my initial point. Since when did I ever say "Let's change the characters in Co-op along with PVP!". I like how the characters are now for Co-op, don't get me wrong. As I said, If you don't wanna play PVP, nobody if forcing you to. And the changes most likely won't affect Co-op as well. And I agree with you 100% that its hard to suss out real issues of Balancing, adding new enemies, mechanics. However, you must understand from a veteran player(s) perspective that after surviving, the game tends to get really boring as you're left with that small feeling of "I've come this far, so what now?". PVP is fun because it shows what you can do when faced with intelligent players instead of Mobs.

I never said that you said that the PVP changes would need to affect Coop as well, I was simply citing an example of something I fear would happen in the balancing process. I would appreciate it if you stopped telling me I misheard or misunderstood some large part of what you're saying, I simply adding my own view of the outcomes to the scenarios that have been presented in this topic.

 

the reason I used an example like that is to demonstrate the degree to which some changes would occur in order to augment or balance the PVP experience. Whether it be changes to characters, items, drop rates, etc... Realistically there's 2 ways that PVP could be balanced, if we're strictly dealing with the game we have now: 

1) Things will be rebalanced across the board, either by nerfing or buffing or both. This might not hurt any individual character or item directly, but could easily reshape the way parts of the game need to be played.

2) PVP and NonPVP matters will be handled separately, so while PVP is on the game plays differently than when it's off. Easiest way to make PVP good, also easiest way to make the game feel disjointed even with itself. Additionally, new content would take twice as long cause it would be made and adjusted for the two modes.

if we're imagining a world where DST is out of Beta and Klei has an incredible amount of time and resources, then sure; technically any idea you can whip up is possible. But I just don't feel that PVP can be made into a self-sustaining game mode without a plethora of changes that would ultimately change certain game dynamics.

 

Also, I have reached the point of surviving so long I get bored. Hell, I can get bored without surviving incredibly long as well. But when I reach this point with any game, I tend to try and play a different game so that I'm getting a fresh feeling of gameplay, instead of trying to juice something out of a game that will fundamentally be a very similar experience. This could explain why I don't personally see "PVP will elongate the life of this game a lot" as something so true or crucial. I entirely understand why others feel this way, though. Not trying to undermine your opinions, just explaining why I'm so dead set on highlighting the negative side of PVP balanced that COULD occur.

if Klei or somebody here would like to demonstrate ways in which PVP could be properly reworked without messing with nonPVP, be my guest, like I said I genuinely have been trying to figure out a way myself

 

edit: Just saw Moon's examples of what could help PVP without affecting coop; I have to say, changes like this I'm very open to within the bounds of reason. I wouldn't want Abigail's buff suddenly allow her to take down regular enemies like a tank, but if it was specific to-player damage then I'm for it.

I think part of the issue for me, trying to take the side of "PVP is a good idea but might not execute well" is that I'm not 100% sure of what you guys think makes PVP bad right now, and so I just have to assume that most people want some huge overall, something like a Combat Version 2 type deal.

I have a feeling some people might see me as some kind of PVP Scrooge, that I'm here to say "no, pvp is bad and just shouldn't be a thing." This is not the case, I'm all for PVP! I just fear the implications of the changes necessary to make PVP really, really good. To demonstrate that I'm not trying to argue for the sake of argument, and that I really do support PVP wholeheartedly IN THEORY, I'm going to pretend like Don't Starve doesn't even HAVE coop for a second:

I haven't done much to point out how I would want PVP to be reworked, particularly because I probably don't have as much PVP experience as some of you. However, I suppose this doesn't make my point any less valid, because there will always be new players to the game and PVP should be well suited for the new and th old.

• The game is, at it's heart, a co-op based game. This isn't entirely by Klei's choosing, since DST really is just a multiplayer Don't Starve. The point of Don't Starve is to gather resources and stay alive, so while that translated over from the old game, PVP is an entirely new realm, and since it's new, there were no pre-existing features that allow PVP to flourish nearly as much as Survival. I'm willing to bet that pretty much everything that can be used for PVP is just a side-effect / alternate use of an item already made for survival.
• PVP has few strategies. Say what you will about the numerous characters and items, it still comes down to a very basic set of items which leaves a very basic set of executions. Some of the strats are cheap, such as putting players to sleep or preying on those with weak ping. Aside from that, you have the method of chasing somebody down until one of you simply starves or gives up, the inability to protect a lot of your stuff if you're not at base or you're offline, and the fact that your spoils entirely become their spoils if they kill you. This is a lot of the reason why PVP in Minecraft (even on dedicated PVP game modes and servers) is also pretty bad, because it essentially means that anybody who has more time or in-game items than you already has a very large chance of dominating you. This is definitely where the game needs to be reworked.
• The combat system is so elementary, it's almost as if it wasn't made for Player Vs Player! (remember, we're pretending Coop isn't a thing right now). You have melee weapons that all swing the exact same way at the same speed, ranged attacks that can't really be blocked by any degree except for armour, and some methods of attack are just so unmanageable by the victim that it's almost not worth playing once it happens to you. This is why Willow got nerfed and they added the ability to put out fires before they really catch. But I'm talking about gang attacks, sleep tactics, any fire set to an item / chest / base when the owner isn't close enough to catch it in time. Combat like this breed paranoia more than it breeds competition, because you just know that at any moment something entirely defeating could happen to you. This is part of why I don't invest too much in PVP.
• New players (as in, players joining an established server) are at a great disadvantage. Ground resources will be exhausted, the new player will have to focus on surviving before they have a chance to worry about fighting back, and there's really little incentive for an old player to let a new player work with them or even let them live, unless they're willing to equip the new player with some gear and items in hopes that the new player will form a truce (which, in a game of such impermanence, has a 50/50 chance of ending with either of the 2 mentioned players simply killing eachother).
• Some characters are just better PVP oriented than others, whether it be their abilities or their superior statistics. The only way to really fix this issue in a way that only the weaker characters will benefit is to buff those weaker characters in some way, either through new stats or new abilities. Adding new items to counter the stronger players very well may end up with the stronger players likewise using these new items to their advantage.

I think I've highlighted my own issues with PVP here. PVP definitely needs a lot of work to be something that somebody can frequently enjoy, but to remedy the issues that I've listed here we would need new items, new moves, rebalanced character stats, increased means for empowering new players, and a way to lock regions upon players leaving the server. Now, if we had a coop mode in this game, I would hypothesize that several of these changes would affect that mode as well, unless Klei made sure to keep the changes for PVP separate from the changes for this hypothesized coop. But then I would feel torn between which mode to play, because they would become particularly different experiences over time. My survival strategies would be different for the two modes, and I might sometimes be thrown off by the differences among similar things in the 2 modes, like how I can no longer block enemy attacks if I'm not on PVP, or how resources are so much harder to find because I'm used to joining established PVP servers and getting items or some kind of temporary survival-buff from the get-go. The list of the issues that this dichotomy could cause goes on and on and on...

Of course, we could keep coop the same thing as PVP and simply remove the ability to actually hit other players. But then a lot of the things meant for PVP would still be around without needing to be, and the game wouldn't be as well suited for a challenging and interesting coop experience as it could be...

Okay, I'm done pretending the coop doesn't exist now. Do you see how I'm approaching this issue? I really feel that anyway that could make PVP as fun and engaging as Coop (before it gets to the critical "okay I'm bored now" point) would be at the detriment of the Coop we have now. I really do think PVP is awful as it is and -could- use improving, I just don't personally see many viable ways to do this without also changing aspects of coop.

[nosajkeram]

I like to have options. The more the merrier.

[K5dV]

I'm glad this thread has generated so much discussing. Perhaps Klei will see it and get some ideas. 

[Flare2V]

6 hours ago, MiniKeeper said:

I'm glad this thread has generated so much discussing. Perhaps Klei will see it and get some ideas. 

I'd like to see their take on PvP.

[Maris]

Now Rabbit Earmuff protects from Pan Flute and STS

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=381745920

[Moon64]

On 1/31/2016 at 7:01 AM, Maris said:

Now Rabbit Earmuff protects from Pan Flute and STS

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=381745920

Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of some of the other tweaks of this mod & I'm also not able to mod most of the PVP servers that I play on.

I would love to see this implemented by the Klei team though.

[Maris]

On 2/1/2016 at 6:31 PM, Moon64 said:

I would love to see this implemented by the Klei team though.

I would too.

But Klei are slow on making pvp features, sadly.

[Moon64]

1 hour ago, Maris said:

I would too.

But Klei are slow on making pvp features, sadly.

Slow as in never? The Willow nerfs were more for griefing than anything else. 

[WillowCrocker]

1 minute ago, Moon64 said:

Slow as in never? The Willow nerfs were more for griefing than anything else. 

Amen to that. It really didn't change the fact that people are still going to be griefers.

Not like someone can't just come in as Woodie, go werebeaver, and decimate everyone. And you can still burn down a camp with a simple, VERY inexpensive torch - Willow being fireproof. or not, people are going to grief.

[leonseye]

8 hours ago, WillowCrocker said:

Amen to that. It really didn't change the fact that people are still going to be griefers.

Not like someone can't just come in as Woodie, go werebeaver, and decimate everyone. And you can still burn down a camp with a simple, VERY inexpensive torch - Willow being fireproof. or not, people are going to grief.

Many of us said this prior to the Willow nerfs, but the deck was just so stacked against her through irrational hatred that there was just no helping her by then.  : /

And hey look, people still do the exact same thing still, just w/ torches.

[CameoAppearance]

I haven't had much of a chance to get firsthand PvP experience because I hate Wilderness Mode and hardly anyone makes Endless Mode PvP servers. (Survival Mode is not remotely suited to PvP, but luckily there already is a gamemode that's just like Survival Mode without the co-op-oriented ghost mechanics!)

I like turning the PvP option on for my servers, but my DST group plays cooperatively; I just think friendly fire is funny and also enjoy being able to respond to someone making a particularly boneheaded move by whacking them with a shovel.

I don't think they should rebalance the whole game to make PvP better, since from what I can tell Klei put it in more as a thing you can do if you want than with the intention to have fighting other players be a major part of multiplayer. I especially don't think they should nerf or buff any of the characters in a way that would change how effective they are against mobs, even if it only takes effect with PvP switched on. (If it worked like that, there would basically be six gamemodes instead of three, since whether the server had PvP on would alter your survival strategy even if you never laid a hand on another player.) But if they can add things that only affect you while you're fighting other player characters, I don't see any downside to that and I'm intrigued by the possibilities there. At least one such effect already exists: If you hit a WX-78 player with the Morning Star, it'll trigger SYSTEM OVERLOAD much like charging a Volt Goat. (This seems like more of an unpleasant surprise for the attacker than the WX player, but I guess you could use it to wreck their sanity and get shadow monsters after them.)

[Gingerbread]

for more balanced pvp everyone should play as wes or even wes vs wilson is really unbalanced for pvp. I mean cmon. there are a lot of pvp games out there such as hurtworld, minecraft, rust etc.. In none of them there are unbalanced chars as far as i know. you choose your char and start to game with same ability same hp etc all is about your preparation and skill... But for this game depending on which char u choose you are starting to the game lost (cmooon who thinks a skilled wes player can beat a skilled wickerbottom?)

Another problem about pvp is some weapons (especially wickerbottom books, panflute and ice staff should be rebalanced to give the opponent a chance to attack to the owner of these weapons.)

If someone is running away from you and you got no ranged weapon depending on runner's skill and resources you may never catch the guy... You can keep up with him forever which is a nuisance.

combat logging yeah. there should be some sorta punishment for those who logs out of the game in a harsh time (although i dont really think that combat logging is really bad currently cuz chars, weapons are so unbalanced that if you are wes you got right to log out :D).

pvp for dst is whole another concept and klei should really work on it to release it as a whole new expansion imo.