Powercreep is getting out of control (Really)

[Swiyss]

BYR: This is not a complain, I'm just pointing out something. I really want someone at Klei to look at this.

Why is WX-78 a semi-god now, do all f***-all character out of nowhere? I know this is fun, I agree with the changes and I actually am extremely excited to play a brand new world with the new skill tree once it comes out; But Wilson have 6 skills, SIX, to throw a freaking torch on the ground, and Lanterns can do the same and can be crafted day 1-3.

Not only that, but Wigfrid has so many filler is insane as well, around 8 skills that could open up space for way better and cooler ones, and the beefalo tree doesn't make sense since she's better attacking on foot. Willow has a complete rework on her tree (which is ok I guess), but her bernie side is so boring and unusable; And she also has 2 skills to do the same thing a lantern can do..

Warly, Wickerbottom, Wes, Wanda and Maxwell's skill trees are coming out soon, so please take feedback from the community and do not be scared to make them as fun as Walter and WX-78 trees. And please take a look back at other skill trees, specially the ones I mentioned before.

And if we're prioritizing fun before balance in this PvE game, then please listen to the community and their suggestions for their loved characters. I really wish for a second look at Wendy specially.

Edited Tuesday at 05:58 PM by Swiyss

[Hi.]

Yeah idk, Wilson is supposed to be the default character but the power creep just keeps getting worse and worse and it kinda feels like Klei is ignoring it. This is also making characters without skill trees a lot weaker. But I haven't messed around in the beta that much too so idk

[Well-met]

it's deliberate and a feature. You just only now realized it

[Cruvimaster]

Perhaps this balancing will come in the new game (Don't Starve Elsewhere), because I hope there won't be any reworks or skill trees there for many years to come.

[AveHortor]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

BYR: This is not a complain, I'm just pointing out something. I really want someone at Klei to look at this.

what is byr

[Capybara007]

I dont complain about skill trees anymore because its just the way it is, it has been like this for about 3 years now, klei wont just delete the skill trees

I hope klei sees this and decides to leave the godlike powers in DST and focus on good character design in DSE

22 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

Perhaps this balancing will come in the new game (Don't Starve Elsewhere), because I hope there won't be any reworks or skill trees there for many years to come.

Sadly the steam page says "roguelite" which implies meta progression which implies skill trees, at least how they work nowadays
Either that or they make it so you must survive x number of days to unlock survivors, which i dont think is happening

[BlueBananaKing]

10 minutes ago, AveHortor said:

what is byr

before you read

[shaurun]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

BYR: This is not a complain, I'm just pointing out something. I really want someone at Klei to look at this.

Why is WX-78 a semi-god now, do all f***-all character out of nowhere? I know this is fun, I agree with the changes and I actually am extremely excited to play a brand new world with the new skill tree once it comes out; But Wilson have 6 skills, SIX, to throw a freaking torch on the ground, and Lanterns can do the same and can be crafted day 1-3.

Not only that, but Wigfrid has so many filler is insane as well, around 8 skills that could open up space for way better and cooler ones, and the beefalo tree doesn't make sense since she's better attacking on foot. Willow has a complete rework on her tree (which is ok I guess), but her bernie side is so boring and unusable; And she also has 2 skills to do the same thing a lantern can do..

Warly, Wickerbottom, Wes, Wanda and Maxwell's skill trees are coming out soon, so please take feedback from the community and do not be scared to make them as fun as Walter and WX-78 trees. And please take a look back at other skill trees, specially the ones I mentioned before.

And if we're prioritizing fun before balance in this PvE game, then please listen to the community and their suggestions for their loved characters. I really wish for a second look at Wendy specially.

As this thread dropped with WX-78 skill tree, I guess you mostly complain on WX so let me tell something.

WX-78 is very costly and time-consuming to build. Look, chassises cost 1 red gem each - not a problem late game, but early game it is (you could be unlucky with graveyard). 

Lunar affinity requires to travel to lunar island/lunar grotto, have 12 biodata and 8 scrap per each 📡 craft, and robots will be unpossessed if you switch shard, plus you need to give them weapons, you need to install circuits in it, etc. and they die due to low hunger/sanity/health if not maintained.

Without lunar affinity, each chassis you want to have specific circuits anyways so you'll spend a lot of time just collect bio-data.

Shadow affinity is simpler but early game only nightmare fuel is accessible which is not very cool. Sure you can rush shadow pieces day 21 but for full potential you're going to open rifts so you'd loose the heart unless you beat multiple shadow pieces bosses or wait for day 41.

Even scouting drone requires proper setup and electric doo-dad so you most likely need science machine at least which for many new players is not a day 1 available thing.

And many other skills are still fillers like better drones range or energy saving.

So WX is surely very powerful but requers a lot of effort. I'd say for short term Wickerbottom/Wormwood/Willow/Wortox/Wanda/Wigfried are more beneficial.

For long-term world WX-78 will reach it's potential eventually but early game he's almost same WX as it was.

 

But yes skill trees are not balanced overall and klei mentioned they'll do a revisit in the future. WX-78 used to be kinda mimicking abilities of creatures so he does it. But I disagree he's "like everyone and somewhat better" if that was meant anyhow because access to his features requires probably the most investment.

[Capybara007]

11 minutes ago, shaurun said:

But yes skill trees are not balanced overall and klei mentioned they'll do a revisit in the future. 

what? more?

[mathem99]

27 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

what? more?

Oh yeah, Character Refresh Mk.III is coming out, so buckle up!

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Hi. said:

Yeah idk, Wilson is supposed to be the default character but the power creep just keeps getting worse and worse and it kinda feels like Klei is ignoring it. This is also making characters without skill trees a lot weaker. But I haven't messed around in the beta that much too so idk

I think the issue is that Wilson doesn't represent a default anymore he just represents a step above Wes(for now)

He doesn't really sell being a default when everyone is turning into default plus where you lose nothing for not using him but gain additional layers on top especially if affinities are unlocked. He doesn't represent the default experience anymore as skill trees are the new default.

[Cruvimaster]

1 hour ago, Capybara007 said:

Sadly the steam page says "roguelite" 

These are user-created tags. If I want, I can add the tag "soulslike" or "metroidvania" there.

51 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

what? more?

They will revisit the old skill trees, and once they finish those, they will have to revisit the current ones. It will be an endless cycle of revisiting everything. 😂

Edited Tuesday at 12:19 AM by Cruvimaster

[BB Marioni]

7 hours ago, Swiyss said:

BYR: This is not a complain, I'm just pointing out something. I really want someone at Klei to look at this.

Why is WX-78 a semi-god now, do all f***-all character out of nowhere? I know this is fun, I agree with the changes and I actually am extremely excited to play a brand new world with the new skill tree once it comes out; But Wilson have 6 skills, SIX, to throw a freaking torch on the ground, and Lanterns can do the same and can be crafted day 1-3.

Not only that, but Wigfrid has so many filler is insane as well, around 8 skills that could open up space for way better and cooler ones, and the beefalo tree doesn't make sense since she's better attacking on foot. Willow has a complete rework on her tree (which is ok I guess), but her bernie side is so boring and unusable; And she also has 2 skills to do the same thing a lantern can do..

Warly, Wickerbottom, Wes, Wanda and Maxwell's skill trees are coming out soon, so please take feedback from the community and do not be scared to make them as fun as Walter and WX-78 trees. And please take a look back at other skill trees, specially the ones I mentioned before.

And if we're prioritizing fun before balance in this PvE game, then please listen to the community and their suggestions for their loved characters. I really wish for a second look at Wendy specially.

I do agree that the WX skill tree makes him do sooooo much. But unfortunately, there are still players who post threads that his skills are garbage. In my experience, Klei devs are actually active and listening to player feedback. Sadly, this seems to be one of those games where player feedback are actually whats harming the game. I exeprienced this when playing tree of savior before. The game was already good, but players kept wanting more OPness for their favorite class, and kept complaining if another class would rival their own biases, until it became a never ending cycle of reworks and rebalances, and all classes lost their uniqueness, and everyone just became a dps with a different color.

[Curly Bill]

I think WX is going to be in an OK spot after his skill tree; Like mentioned here, a lot of players think his skill tree is severely weak still, even before the nerfs

I think the purpose of different characters in this game is not, "Who's best, Who's worst?", but a matter of playstyle

WX's playstyle is a focus on self-modification and being a robot. Now with his stats being a straight 100 across the board, I feel it emphasizes needing the player to make a decision on how to modify WX and with the new tool options he has, the player will need to be decide how they want to play WX before modifying

 

It's honestly one of, if not the best, skill tree they've done IMO. The base stat reduction makes me feel like ignoring certain stats will come at a price now, and the tools let me be very creative on how I can interact with the world

 

really love it, even if it does 'technically' maybe make him stronger than before.

[DannyR]

WX-78 does what could possibly be supposedly done by 2 or more characters almost like Wickerbottom, a wizard librarian. It looks like they poured all their ideas into 1 character after so long.

It's still good to listen to player feedback but the problem is which player feedback would be good for the game?

DST has turned into an RPG because they kept listening to "only combat matters in this game" type of players.

[Ridley]

9 hours ago, Swiyss said:

And if we're prioritizing fun before balance in this PvE game, then please listen to the community and their suggestions for their loved characters. I really wish for a second look at Wendy specially.

Why do I get the feeling this thread has more to do with Wendy's skill tree than whatever is going on with Wx78's?

[Jussatoon]

17 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Why do I get the feeling this thread has more to do with Wendy's skill tree than whatever is going on with Wx78's?

Probably because... it does?

[JohnnyTwoShirts]

8 hours ago, shaurun said:

As this thread dropped with WX-78 skill tree, I guess you mostly complain on WX so let me tell something.

WX-78 is very costly and time-consuming to build. Look, chassises cost 1 red gem each - not a problem late game, but early game it is (you could be unlucky with graveyard). 

Lunar affinity requires to travel to lunar island/lunar grotto, have 12 biodata and 8 scrap per each 📡 craft, and robots will be unpossessed if you switch shard, plus you need to give them weapons, you need to install circuits in it, etc. and they die due to low hunger/sanity/health if not maintained.

Without lunar affinity, each chassis you want to have specific circuits anyways so you'll spend a lot of time just collect bio-data.

Shadow affinity is simpler but early game only nightmare fuel is accessible which is not very cool. Sure you can rush shadow pieces day 21 but for full potential you're going to open rifts so you'd loose the heart unless you beat multiple shadow pieces bosses or wait for day 41.

Even scouting drone requires proper setup and electric doo-dad so you most likely need science machine at least which for many new players is not a day 1 available thing.

And many other skills are still fillers like better drones range or energy saving.

So WX is surely very powerful but requers a lot of effort. I'd say for short term Wickerbottom/Wormwood/Willow/Wortox/Wanda/Wigfried are more beneficial.

For long-term world WX-78 will reach it's potential eventually but early game he's almost same WX as it was.

 

But yes skill trees are not balanced overall and klei mentioned they'll do a revisit in the future. WX-78 used to be kinda mimicking abilities of creatures so he does it. But I disagree he's "like everyone and somewhat better" if that was meant anyhow because access to his features requires probably the most investment.

This is my sentiment as well. To get WX to his highest potential, it takes time. Some circuits require materials that won't be possible to get until 35+ days in... so there is some built in anti-powerspike. The game is PvE and often played solo, so balancing vs fun is more forgiving (players can adjust skills to their difficulty liking or play characters to match) but I think that a good way to balance is to think of Klei Public Servers. Those servers rarely get past Spring. So essentially, the powerspike will only just occur at the end of a Public Server Playtime (majority of the time). 

 

That being said, agree that balance is all over the place now. My theory is that these skill tree reworks are being designed and tuned for DST Elsewhere; so there is a noticeable power-creep happening in current DST. I suspect that the characters will feel more balanced when brought into the new game.

Edited Tuesday at 08:19 AM by JohnnyTwoShirts

[Capybara007]

3 hours ago, Curly Bill said:

I think the purpose of different characters in this game is not, "Who's best, Who's worst?", but a matter of playstyle

WX's playstyle is a focus on self-modification and being a robot.

Every character plays the same nowadays, everyone needs to have a super secret combat move, 10+ craftables, a teleport across the map ability, and 90 flavor perks such as gain 5 sanity/min when close to the water

And dont forget a perk that doesnt even make sense with the character but the devs made on the spot because it sounded cool (wigfrid beefalo)

I really hope klei limits the characters to have 3 or 4 big perks or downsides that majorly affect the game in DSE, i dont want to see the +10 abigail potions or +10 WX circuits

Edited Tuesday at 09:01 AM by Capybara007

[RGM]

I think VX78's tree is one of the most balanced in existence. Compared to Wurt Wortax, Willow's tree looks like a paragon of balance.

[Milordo]

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Forget skill trees, I want to play Don’t Starve Elsewhere… and anyone who’s been a fan of the franchise since early concepts wants to play Elsewhere too! Why? Because.. Rats, Rats everywhere!

El

Raton.

[Cheggf]

Why does everybody keep freaking out about WX being so overpowered? Again? He's rather tame compared to other modern characters like Wortox. 

[Schry]

WX-78's skill tree isn't very strong;  it has been nerfed at least three times and is now just barely passable.

I don't understand why so many people think it's too strong. If you really want to question the balance, you should use Wortox as an example.

[Maxil20]

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Why does everybody keep freaking out about WX being so overpowered? Again?

The thing is, WX looks really good from a casual perspective. Casual players value stats and general connivence perks, which WX has in spades. They can manipulate whichever stat as high as they want to please the player, in addition to speed/light/temprature needs being cared for. They even have a early-midgame AOE move to support general combat play, which can scale very well if you build around it.

The thing is, most of these perks become much less impactful/stop mattering once you progress past certain points. The enlightened crown is effectively an infinite light source, so oppoelectronic/illumination circuits lose quite a bit of value. Pearl’s temprature teas make the thermal circuits much less mandatory. Stats are nowhere near as required when most characters are not one shot by threats and have means to rapidly recoup lost stats in a matter of seconds. They lose a lot of value from the kit as the game progresses and players get alternatives to a lot of their functions by just progressing the game. The only things they’ve really got going for them are backup chassis/delivery drone/spin cycle circuits and their affinities. And don’t get me wrong, these are good! But they don’t result in a clear “the balance is destroyed!” when several other characters can compete with their loadout. 

WX’s kit effectively relies on burrowed time, where they start off pretty strong and begin to fall off a decent amount past the champion/fuelweaver into a more “normal” power stance. The thing is most players will never exit the time window when they are very good because they don’t kill these bosses, so they effectively see them as always powerful. They have some incredible perks prior to these bosses, but once you get to that point they really start to fall in line with the strength of other characters who likely have optimized setups to reap as much strength from them as possible.

Edited Tuesday at 06:45 PM by Maxil20
I missed a . and if I didn't edit it it would make me wither away and die

[Swiyss]

11 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

until it became a never ending cycle of reworks and rebalances, and all classes lost their uniqueness, and everyone just became a dps with a different color.

Sounds a LOT like DST..

9 hours ago, JohnnyTwoShirts said:

That being said, agree that balance is all over the place now. My theory is that these skill tree reworks are being designed and tuned for DST Elsewhere; so there is a noticeable power-creep happening in current DST. I suspect that the characters will feel more balanced when brought into the new game.

Yeah my issue is also when you compare other skill trees. I'm not comparing them in power though, I know for a fact some characters should be stronger than others and that's ok, but the love for the skill tree and the creative ideas is what seemed to be off for me. Especially Willow and Wigfrid, both were released so fast and a LOT of people were saying the skill trees were basically just not ready yet, and it seemed that they rushed it to get it released and then forgot about them.

So if Klei IS actually taking a look back at older skill trees, they should really take time with them. For instance, one thing that bothers me about Willow's bernie side is the fact that you would have to give up on lunar blast or shadow fire to be able to set bernie on fire, and the fire only lasts for like 8 seconds, and every attacker takes 50 damage back. The only situation I see myself using this is the same situation I would use lunar blast for it's AoE damage. And as I said in the main post, Wigfrid being on a beefalo makes so that she'll not use her damage potential at all. And even outside of skill trees, some characters being able to ignore all damage by being on a beefalo or ignoring their reduced damage is completely BS as well.

1 hour ago, Schry said:

WX-78's skill tree isn't very strong;  it has been nerfed at least three times and is now just barely passable.

I don't understand why so many people think it's too strong. If you really want to question the balance, you should use Wortox as an example.

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Why does everybody keep freaking out about WX being so overpowered? Again? He's rather tame compared to other modern characters like Wortox. 

It's not about this. The post is not about wx78 being too strong, I don't think it is OVERpowered. My question for Klei is:
_Why give one character so much insane gameplay potential that counters most of the gameplay of the game, just for other characters -LIKE WILSON- to have 5 to 10 useless skills. Wolfgang with a bunch of dmg 1 2 3 4 and Woodie with a bunch of skills just for picking up things faster. Wx for example can just place a nightmare fuel in the affinity and have a 10x better skill than all of Woodie's pickup ones. This for me just seems like a scam, it literally feels like it, especially when you actually try to reason with the idea of using a bunch of skills that are usually unused to fill in that roleplay style of gameplay a SKILL TREE is supposed to propose; And if not, please explain why can't we have all skills then?? I doesn't make sense.