We need to address the concept of cheese.

[viblym]

41 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Also it took Klei like 10 years to fix voidwalking/spider den pathfinding bug. Klei are absolutely terrible at staying on top of bugs. Which is why people have so many complaints... DST isnt a sandbox game, it doesn't even have a creative mode like 99% of all survival genre games out there. I literally cant name a single "sandbox" game that doesn't have a creative mode inbuilt into the game.

So no, DST isnt a sandbox game.

Many bugs and exploits players used were left in game because they were a unique solution that the playerbase used to get around mechanics that would require a more in-depth rework that's a lot more complicated than just removing a feature. While they haven't gotten around to it they did outright say that they did not want to remove these exploits or cheese methods until they addressed why players used them in the first place. 

Sandbox games are not reliant on creative mode to assign them their own genre, Legacy Console Minecraft did not have creative mode for years and it was still a sandbox game. Creative mode existing is common among sandbox games, but these games are not sandbox games exclusively because they have creative mode. 




If you find a unique way of doing something, that isn't exactly a bad thing. You are rewarded for creativity and ingenuity. 

[Gashzer]

8 minutes ago, viblym said:

Many bugs and exploits players used were left in game because they were a unique solution that the playerbase used to get around mechanics that would require a more in-depth rework that's a lot more complicated than just removing a feature. While they haven't gotten around to it they did outright say that they did not want to remove these exploits or cheese methods until they addressed why players used them in the first place. 

"Until they addressed why players used them in the first place" its taking them a decade to figure out the mindset of DST players? 

That statement from klei is the ultimate proof how disconnected they are from the player experience.

Also the fact it took them this long to implement geometric placement because "we know a mod has perfectly covered this but we will finally implement it for console players after all these years because we are lazy" is another example were we the player are covering for Klei's incompetency.

Why did it take so long to make geometric placement a thing when megabasing has been a core gameplay playstyle for many long standing DST players? Absolute laziness is the answer.

I obviously love DST but Klei act like they are still these inexperienced 20 something year old game developers after all these years that just so happened to get really lucky with DST.

[Well-met]

I'm gonna be honest I expected a different topic, this opening post is a bit hard to understand

[Tranoze]

48 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

 ignoring bug fixing this

That because it not a bug that enemies can be blocked by obstacle. Even players can be blocked by obstacle.

Edited July 14, 2025 by Tranoze

[Gashzer]

7 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

That because it not a bug that enemies can be blocked by obstacle. Even players can be blocked by obstacle.

That because it not a bug that enemies can be blocked by obstacle. Even players can be blocked by obstacle.

If i make a line of walls. Larve will run around it to attack me. If I place a magma pool/burnt sign/statue in the middle of the line wall why do the larve not run around but instead try to run through the burnt sign/magma pool/statue? 

This isnt logical. And is clearly a bug.

I'm 100% ok with walling a complete circle around the magma pits being a legit method because walls are designed to block things. It's the inconsistency of larve pathfinding when dealing with "gaps" in a straight line wall thats the issue. 

If lavae are stupid, then make them consistently stupid and run against walls no matter what. Why the need to include the middle glitchy object like a burnt sign?

Edited July 14, 2025 by Gashzer

[cybers2001]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

If i make a line of walls. Larve will run around it to attack me. If I place a magma pool/burnt sign/statue in the middle of the line wall why do the larve not run around but instead try to run through the burnt sign/magma pool/statue? 

This isnt logical. And is clearly a bug.

I'm 100% ok with walling a complete circle around the magma pits being a legit method because walls are designed to block things. It's the inconsistency of larve pathfinding when dealing with "gaps" in a straight line wall thats the issue. 

If lavae are stupid, then make them consistently stupid and run against walls no matter what. Why the need to include the middle glitchy object like a burnt sign?

Right but you're referring to just one strategy. Before people started using burnt signs or lava pools as part of the wall, they used to just completely circle every lava pool with walls. Are you saying complete circling over every pool would not be cheese, though the outcome is the same?

Edited July 14, 2025 by cybers2001

[Gashzer]

30 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

Right but you're referring to just one strategy. Before people started using burnt signs or lava pools as part of the wall, they used to just completely circle every lava pool with walls.

Yeah but walling off every single magma pools takes more time and resources compared to making a straight line through a magma pit.

Also the middle magma pit is guarded by dragonfly herself so walling off every pit comes with a risk to overcome.

I wouldn't have an issue if larve were stupid the entire time. It's the fact that a glitched "gap" object is needed to prevent them running around a straight line wall that is the problem.

Its poor game design, plain and simple. Poor game design means we the players can abuse the easiest glitchiest option everytime instead of learning to properly overcome the problem.

See Elden ring. The first encounter is a starter boss with a chaotic move set, 99% of players die to this boss. Fromsoft then make us encounter the same starter boss in the first main boss dungeon as a normal mob we can practice against. Giving us an opportunity to learn to fight it in a more forgiving environment. This is how to teach players without handholding.

Rewarding players by allowing them to "skip" core boss mechanics by using easy to use bugs that can be googled in 2secs or spread by other players in pubs isnt good for teaching players anything. This is why I've played with DST players with 600hours in DST that cant kill dfly legit...

30 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

Are you saying complete circling over every pool would not be cheese, though the outcome is the same?

100% yes. Because circling over every pool adheres to the common sense on how any normal person would think walls work.

Magically knowing that placing a burnt sign in the middle of your wall line will block larve is just stupid, do you not agree?

How something is executed completely changes the gameplay experience and satisfaction even if the result is the same.

Edit:  Just to clarify, circled walls around each pit would not be an exploit (abusing bugs like poor mob pathfinding) but could be considered cheese - (intended mechanic used to make bosses easier)

Edited July 14, 2025 by Gashzer

[Tranoze]

38 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If i make a line of walls. Larve will run around it to attack me. If I place a magma pool/burnt sign/statue in the middle of the line wall why do the larve not run around but instead try to run through the burnt sign/magma pool/statue? 

those are see through gaps. You can see IRL dogs barks at you sometimes from gaps they cant go pass. totally normal.
 

41 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If i make a line of walls. Larve will run around it to attack me.

from larvae point of view, everything is blocked with the line of wall so they have no other choices.

I dont remember from where, but there something someone said about slavery/salary, that if you give people just enough that they cant quit, but so little that they cant advanced anything in life, that basically trap them forever.
The gap between wall is just like that, you show larvae enough that they cant quit, but block enough that they cant advance, so they basically trapped.
 

[DVGMedia]

13 hours ago, Gashzer said:

However bugs/glitches/pathfinding exploits like dragonfly lavae getting stuck between a magma pool and a wall or getting stuck on a burnt sign or statue. All these exploits should 100% get patched or replaced with a more polished intended mechanic.

Path finding is intended  there are reasons only certain mobs do what they do. Beefalos in heat will attack walls if the target they want is on the other side however they never will otherwise. 

Hounds which are  ones that walls are probably designed for will path find and also attack walls where they get stuck. 

I mean these things exist in the game however I don't think that they really deserve giving that mechanic to every creature. It's been in the game and I'm certain they've looked at it because they've changed how the fight works. Previously dragonfly used to be body blocked by things during her lavae phase and now she doesn't. And I think that's fine because it really did kind of break that aspect of the fight if you set up for it. 

But really people need to know that this is how walls and structures are intended to be used. 

 

In addition you know that the attack from lavaes can actually jump over these blockages if it's a sign or burnt structure?

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

2 hours ago, viblym said:

 

"Until they addressed why players used them in the first place" its taking them a decade to figure out the mindset of DST players? 

That statement from klei is the ultimate proof how disconnected they are from the player experience.

I mean that's just standard logic you have to figure out why something is there before even thinking about making changes to it.

 

The logic for it is that collision exists

Edited July 14, 2025 by DVGMedia

[Frosty_Mentos]

14 hours ago, Sacco said:

I think using bugs or unintended features to kill a boss is a cheese... Said that i strongly believe that EVERY unintended way to kill a boss should be removed, by this i don't mean something on the line of killing fuelweaver with treeguards as woodie, but like stalling them with a spider nest and then killing them with an houndius shootius.

That would feel awful. This game's point is creativity and making use of any resources you get. If the 'cheese' is a thing for particular bosses then might as well balance the cheese to remain a mechanic but not become a oneshot.

[Mike23Ua]

Some things should be obvious: Such as when creatures made of lava can not jump into a lava pond and swim to reach you = A.I. Cheese.

But other things I feel like Klei unjustifiably nerfed (like gunpowder damage or bee mines)

Basically my rule of thumb is that if it’s an item found in the weapons tab intended to be used as a weapon, then its effectiveness should not be nerfed. If it’s a direct character kit item or ability that requires resource collecting and maintaining then it should not be nerfed.

But if players are using easy to obtain items for exploiting the games decade old AI (see lureplant cheese) then it’s a bug that took Klei a decade to get around to fixing.

[cybers2001]

Meh, this is nitpicking. Of course players will do what is efficient.

[DegenerateFurry]

Yeah, this community can be super judgemental about how you kill bosses, and they like to invalidate anything other than what they feel is the "proper" way of fighting and ask for it to be patched out or nerfed into irrelevance. It's such a toxic and limited mindset, the antithesis of what you see with Minecraft's technical community.

Edited July 15, 2025 by DegenerateFurry

[Capybara007]

today i saw a streamer kill celestial champion usign docks, that is not the way i play the game so i got extremely upset even though his gameplay does not affect me specifically in my private world, if klei doesnt patch all of these alternative ways of playing the game that i dont like i will boycott and call them losers

[Edible Coal]

this is like arguing what is consider as a sandwitch, which we all know, have no a definite meaning

just do whatever the game allows you to do...

[AliceShiki]

The only problem with the concept of cheese is that some people think that cheese is an inherently negative word, when there is nothing negative about it.

A cheese is simply a way to trivialize an encounter. That's all it is. It's not negative, it's not a judgment on your skills as a player, it's not someone saying that your kill doesn't count. A cheese is simply a method of trivializing stuff. It can be as simple as killing Bearger with Treeguards, or a more elaborate setup like the Walls around Dragonfly... it doesn't really matter. It's a cheese if you are trivializing stuff, and there is nothing wrong with being able to cheese stuff... And honestly, being able to cheese stuff is part of the appeal of a sandbox game, it would be weird if cheeses were patched out, and I personally think that the game would be worse off if the devs tried to patch every cheese that the players came up with. Let the people that want to fight the boss while interacting with its mechanics fight it, and let the ones that want to cheese it for the loot cheese it. Everyone wins in those situations.

Regarding bugs, I am 99% in favor of them being patched out of the game, the 1% where I'm against it is only in the cases where the devs see the bugs, like the bugs, and make a conscious decision to turn a bug into a feature. That's the only case where I think keeping a bug in game makes sense... And well, great things can come out of bugs becoming features, like the entire combo system of Street Fighter, but that's a very rare exception and is definitely not the norm. As a rule of thumb, bugs are just problems and should be fixed without really needing to think twice about it.

That said, exploits and bugs are different, and patching exploits is a different matter altogether... There is nothing buggy about the Larvae behavior in Dragonfly's fight to the best of my knowledge, it's just an easily exploitable AI, so people exploit it. There are certain arguments to be made about fixing exploits in many games, but in sandbox games? Eeeeh? I think the bar for fixing exploits in sandbox games is pretty high. Sometimes they do cross the line and demand a fix, but I don't think the larvae exploit is one of those exploits that cross the line... This is subjective though.

Edited July 15, 2025 by AliceShiki

[Bumber64]

5 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

There is nothing buggy about the Larvae behavior in Dragonfly's fight to the best of my knowledge, it's just an easily exploitable AI, so people exploit it.

It's buggy because they think they can cross an obstacle that they can't. Either they should actually be allowed to crawl over magma pools, or they should realize they can't and path around. If you do bother to fully trap them, they should attack the walls (IDK if they already do).

This is entirely different from what is done with grumble bees, where they'll take the long way around instead of getting stuck. Technically, they could just fly over the walls, but flying mobs are lazy unless you completely wall them in.

Edited July 15, 2025 by Bumber64

[AliceShiki]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

It's buggy because they think they can cross an obstacle that they can't.

I'm not sure if I would qualify that as a bug tbh, but that kinda depends on the technical definition of a bug... If the devs simply didn't code it within the AI of the larvae to look at the size of the gap before deciding if they can cross it or not... Is that an actual bug, or is it simply exploitable AI? I wouldn't personally qualify that as a bug because it doesn't seem like the code is acting out in a way different from what it was supposed to do. Maybe I could call it a developer oversight, I guess.

... But uhn... I get what you're saying. I'm not disagreeing that it "feels buggy", but I don't think it actually qualifies as a bug... This is a really technical semantics discussion though, I totally get what you're saying either way.

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

If you do bother to fully trap them, they should attack the walls (IDK if they already do).

I never bothered with trying to use Walls on Dragonfly, but to the best of my knowledge, they don't actually attack walls and are easily trapped by surrounding the lava pools with walls if you want to.

[Prinha]

14 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

Right but you're referring to just one strategy. Before people started using burnt signs or lava pools as part of the wall, they used to just completely circle every lava pool with walls. Are you saying complete circling over every pool would not be cheese, though the outcome is the same?

I would simply wall myself in leaving a door on the site farthest away and have done this in the past to protect tentacle traps or catapults. No danger, a couple of extra walls compared to just the typical straight wall and never have an issue with DF spawning a larva on the wrong site of the gapped pool. Just have to close the door once she flies off for the first time.

Edited July 15, 2025 by Prinha

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

If the devs simply didn't code it within the AI of the larvae to look at the size of the gap [...]

I haven't looked into it, but the impression I get is that they don't see the pool as being there at all. Like Toadstool getting stuck on ponds with no walls involved.

Edited July 15, 2025 by Bumber64

[AliceShiki]

41 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I haven't looked into it, but the impression I get is that they don't see the pool as being there at all. Like Toadstool getting stuck on ponds with no walls involved.

Oh, if that's the case then it's definitely a bug.

[cybers2001]

I wish the AI attempted to at least path around non-wall structures in its way. My winbots wouldn't get blocked by my gemerator so much.

[Cruvimaster]

There are many debates about cheese, exploits, or bugs. Developers know many of them and simply ignore them. You can create threads and post videos, and the devs can pretend they're blind.

[Cheggf]

On 7/14/2025 at 12:08 PM, Mayson71 said:

Why use the queen bee as an example of a "good boss fight" if she is literally the worst boss in the game in terms of game design? This is a boss who literally requires nothing from you except a pile of armor and the exact same pile of heal. None of your skills decide anything in this fight

Bee Queen is one of the best designed fights in the game with the exception of her first phase. Just because, like with literally every boss, you are able to beat her with nothing except a pile of armor and a pile of healing doesn't mean she's a bad fight. 

[Capybara007]

34 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Bee Queen is one of the best designed fights in the game with the exception of her first phase. Just because, like with literally every boss, you are able to beat her with nothing except a pile of armor and a pile of healing doesn't mean she's a bad fight. 

bee queen needs her health set to 16k, she doesnt need a big rework