Remove wendy from the beta

[BeastNleashed]

3 hours ago, DaDa_waw said:

I don't think a creature that takes 20 days to reach its full potential can be considered low-cost, as its control cases may include using dumbbells for a few seconds, using endless monster meat and debris, using endless nightmare fuel, using papyrus to create miracles, and so on. I am also bored with the idea that Abigail should be easily killed, as Wendy is a character with a 0.75 multiplier. Abigail is Wendy's most important ability, and establishing balance by stripping Wendy's main abilities as much as possible has always been the most unsuccessful approach. Without clarifying this, the conflict will not end. I like team spirit, and from the first day it appeared, I only suggested a few things, which are reducing the cooldown (especially canceling haunted cooldowns)+unsynchronizing cooldowns (most importantly)+optimizing the operation feel. But the most important part has been overlooked, and team spirit is only three points in a skill tree. There is too little creative and imaginative content like this about Abigail. The issue of Blessing Sisturn 3 is already a clich é, there is no need to balance an allowance for the sake of balance, it's boring. I use skill points and collect obscure items not to be allowed to earn profits on the basis of punishment.

20 days is not even lategame so why you think 20 days are high cost? Also you say "using papyrus to create miracles" well yes but Wickerbottoms needs tons of Papyrus and sure you get some early on but she still needs to do more than Wendy with skilltree. Winona needs to farm tons of Spiders, Rocks, needs to use her Hat for some items, needs pure brilliance/horror and even enlightend shard, Wurt needs the same only 100x more+ Trident +++++, Wigfrid needs to kill Goats often if it just doesn't drop and its often not dropping. 

And as Wendy you just wait a few days and make pipspook minigame while gathering other stuff? Uiii hard work.

Abigail isn't fragile since you just can craft heal for her, you even could heal her with spider glands which you easy get tons of as Abigail.. oh i mean as Wendy. Pipspook Quest ist really fast and save compared to the stuff other Chars needs to collect and fight.

In my opinion Beefalos should be removed (or fighting on beef) alone because of Wendy, even without shes strong (without skilltree) but with Beef shes just a beast. Or maybe like if you ride a beef Abigail won't do anything or get despawned. 
 

[SilverSpoon]

32 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The group I was talking about wasn't just Chinese posters heck not every poster from there was even involved in those tactics so that's just a oversimplification that being said the tactics I've mentioned have been used for 2 months it's not some recent thing nor is it just retaliation like you seem to be implying even then the people who did cause problems like that should have been banned nor does it justify what's been happening. 

If you can't accept the part about hatred towards Chinese people, it' OK that is to hate towards Wendy-Player. 

It is a wrong to say that their principle of action does not include retaliation. They already hate the whole "our-haters" group on the forums so much because of the abuse they've received, and they directly blame the past posts and actions of haters. Already attacks on haters are more weight than the posts about Wendy. And it's exactly the same on the both side. I've warned over over again you not to uselessly insult each other because I knew where is this going, right? I told both too. Neither listened so much. 

I honestly agree that the best solution to this is a massive BAN unprecedented in scale.

[Picklesaurus]

35 minutes ago, BeastNleashed said:

20 days is not even lategame so why you think 20 days are high cost?

They are really usefull even before having finished taming, when I'm rushing I use them before having finished the taming process to explore the map, to find the ruins and to transverse the labyrith easily as well as a  combo of  weapon + self regen armor + high movement speed to fight the ancient guardian, all that during the first auttum. The only thing I need to remember is to remount so that I don't get buckled off middle fight.

[DaDa_waw]

1 hour ago, BeastNleashed said:

20 days is not even lategame so why you think 20 days are high cost? Also you say "using papyrus to create miracles" well yes but Wickerbottoms needs tons of Papyrus and sure you get some early on but she still needs to do more than Wendy with skilltree. Winona needs to farm tons of Spiders, Rocks, needs to use her Hat for some items, needs pure brilliance/horror and even enlightend shard, Wurt needs the same only 100x more+ Trident +++++, Wigfrid needs to kill Goats often if it just doesn't drop and its often not dropping.

And as Wendy you just wait a few days and make pipspook minigame while gathering other stuff? Uiii hard work.

Abigail isn't fragile since you just can craft heal for her, you even could heal her with spider glands which you easy get tons of as Abigail.. oh i mean as Wendy. Pipspook Quest ist really fast and save compared to the stuff other Chars needs to collect and fight.

In my opinion Beefalos should be removed (or fighting on beef) alone because of Wendy, even without shes strong (without skilltree) but with Beef shes just a beast. Or maybe like if you ride a beef Abigail won't do anything or get despawned.
 

Do we need to conduct a simple and easy to see comparison of upper and lower limits again? I have lost patience with content that is severely limited by people's understanding of gaming. Characters like Woodie, Wolfgang, Maxwell, Voodox, and Willow can almost reach the lower limit that Wendy cannot reach on the first day of the game, and on this basis, they can still improve to a level far higher than Wendy. You overlooked this part. And the strength and upper limit of the functions of Vic Barton, Winona, and Wurt that you rush to compare are unparalleled by Wendy. Their abilities can even accumulate continuously and easily regenerate, without the need to continuously complete the pipspook tasks you crave, let alone the role of Mourning Glory, which seems too mini compared to them. You know, the two old potions cannot even be used together, and you intentionally set aside these things，Even some people here don't have a skill tree yet.

As for Weigefude, in my opinion, her skill tree is very poor, and I also need to fight for a more deserved skill tree for her after this storm. In summary, I don't want to blame anyone anymore because there are indeed many people who have a huge gap in understanding this type of content. Rather than arguing, I would rather listen directly to you asking me "how can these characters still utilize their strengths" rather than "Wendy is definitely cheaper than them". This kind of debate is inefficient and too exhausting.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

If you can't accept the part about hatred towards Chinese people, it' OK that is to hate towards Wendy-Player. 

It is a wrong to say that their principle of action does not include retaliation. They already hate the whole "our-haters" group on the forums so much because of the abuse they've received, and they directly blame the past posts and actions of haters. Already attacks on haters are more weight than the posts about Wendy. And it's exactly the same on the both side. I've warned over over again you not to uselessly insult each other because I knew where is this going, right? I told both too. Neither listened so much. 

I honestly agree that the best solution to this is a massive BAN unprecedented in scale.

When did I say I couldn't accept it I said those involved the discrimination should have been banned or at least given a warning what I'm saying is that does not give anyone the right to do what I mentioned was going on. I don't get why you think it's okay for anyone to act that way nor why you keep trying to sweep the situation under the rug by framing it as me only addressing the Chinese posters to make it seem like this was a race issue.

Also being angry does not excuse the tactics that were used nor does it make my statement on what was going on any less true if the truth is upsetting then the solution is obvious telling the truth is not discrimination or hatred people cannot do whatever they want under the pretext of being offended by what someone else did.

[Cassielu]

These quarrels are excellent testimony to what a good decision the proposal in the title was.

[somethin]

1 hour ago, Cassielu said:

These quarrels are excellent testimony to what a good decision the proposal in the title was.

The better thing to do is to remove Wendy altogether

[Koomin]

Just release Wendy as she currently is and free us from this horribleness. Let us get content for Wortox and Walter and the entire rest of the game and not spend 400 years of developer time on Wendy when she is in a fine enough state.

[Steorra]

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

Just release Wendy as she currently is and free us from this horribleness

It's not true. It only brings more chaos once after release the current Wendy's tree. I don't think the half voters would keep their emotions away once the thing happened as your ideas. Their emotions were already here. Neglect or other negative treatment would only make the things become worse.

 

[Koomin]

12 minutes ago, Steorra said:

It's not true. It only brings more chaos once after release the current Wendy's tree. I don't think the half voters would keep their emotions away once the thing happened as your ideas. Their emotions were already here. Neglect or other negative treatment would only make the things become worse.

 

They have spent months on it and tons of developer time.  There are tons of other problems in the game that they could spend the time on that people are also unhappy with, not to mention the other characters in this beta, or the characters without a skill tree yet that are still waiting.  It’s good enough, and at this point is actively hurting the rest of the game by demanding continuous focus, and just showing clear favoritism towards one character and one portion of the player base.  

[Steorra]

14 minutes ago, Koomin said:

and at this point is actively hurting the rest of the game by demanding continuous focus, and just showing clear favoritism towards one character and one portion of the player base.  

Players have their right to express their opinions, emotions and feedbacks. The decision was made by Klei but not players. Whatever the opinions some players have, there's no reason to blame those players. 

 

[DaDa_waw]

16 minutes ago, Koomin said:

They have spent months on it and tons of developer time.  There are tons of other problems in the game that they could spend the time on that people are also unhappy with, not to mention the other characters in this beta, or the characters without a skill tree yet that are still waiting.  It’s good enough, and at this point is actively hurting the rest of the game by demanding continuous focus, and just showing clear favoritism towards one character and one portion of the player base.

What should be done at what time? The current topic is dealing with the three digit skill tree. If KLei needs more working time, then wait for KLei to make a statement. And for this kind of thing, my view remains the same as before: if something is not completed in a direction that is recognized enough, then no matter how much work is done in that direction, it is not considered completed. All the energy wasted in the wrong direction is just KLei's decision-making mistake, not the so-called biased player/character of one side. The time/revenue loss caused by this will be borne by KLei himself, not the protesting players.

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Players have their right to express their opinions, emotions and feedbacks. The decision was made by Klei but not players. Whatever the opinions some players have, there's no reason to blame those players. 

 

I’m not doing any of that.  Just like the initial poster of this thread requested delaying Wendy yet again, I am requesting stopping continuous preferential work on Wendy, and putting that time towards the other two characters and future game updates.  It is a request to the developers, an opinion and feedback as you said was welcome, and I’m not blaming people.

[RexySeven]

This is insane at this point.

Literally any iteration of Wendy is gonna be criticized by crybabies unless it's a perfect best character in the game to play as; she has to be good at combat, gathering, magic, scouting, crafting, boss fighting, building and also have tons of unique items and some MMO summoner class with micro and macro Abigail management. 
It's insane that Klei has to shift their entire update schedule because of this Sisyphus task as this results in dedicating less time to other characters that might need, since it appears that Wendy is the main Mary Sue character of DST and others are just an afterthought. 

People are taking this goofy ahh character way to seriously,  go actually touch grass or something just dear lord.

[Cassielu]

30 minutes ago, Koomin said:

They have spent months on it and tons of developer time.  There are tons of other problems in the game that they could spend the time on that people are also unhappy with, not to mention the other characters in this beta, or the characters without a skill tree yet that are still waiting.  It’s good enough, and at this point is actively hurting the rest of the game by demanding continuous focus, and just showing clear favoritism towards one character and one portion of the player base.  

As a player I think this should be measured by results rather than costs.

With the same amount of time invested, the quality of Wendy's skilltree is significantly lower than that of the other two skilltrees. This means that the development team that work for Wendy skilltree was less productive than the other two development teams and needed more time to produce content of the same quality.

In this case I don't think giving them more time for this team is asking for "priority work", just making up for previous inefficiencies.It also better for future skilltrees so they will not fall into the same bump-up low quality as Wendy does today.

[Koomin]

15 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

As a player I think this should be measured by results rather than costs.

With the same amount of time invested, the quality of Wendy's skilltree is significantly lower than that of the other two skilltrees. This means that the development team that work for Wendy skilltree was less productive than the other two development teams and needed more time to produce content of the same quality.

In this case I don't think giving them more time for this team is asking for "priority work", just making up for previous inefficiencies.It also better for future skilltrees so they will not fall into the same bump-up low quality as Wendy does today.

It’s a company.  Measuring things in cost is totally normal and should be done.
The results of this disaster and continuing to work on Wendy are also that everyone that doesn’t pick Wendy gets a worse game than they would have got if they had time to work on things that benefit everyone, instead of fixating on one character at the detriment of everything else.  

It is bad in terms of both costs and results.  

[Cassielu]

24 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The results of this disaster and continuing to work on Wendy are also that everyone that doesn’t pick Wendy gets a worse game than they would have got if they had time to work on things that benefit everyone, instead of fixating on one character at the detriment of everything else.  

"Wendy has no skill tree" used to be one of these "everything else".

The result of not solving this problem is not only that Wendy players get a bad skill tree, but also that a maybe random 1/3 of these everything else problems in the future will get bad solutions like today until it was finally solved.

[Koomin]

Just now, Cassielu said:

"Wendy has no skill tree" used to be one of these "everything else".

The result of not solving this problem is not only that Wendy's players will get a bad skill tree, but also that a maybe random 1/3 of these everything else problems in the future will get equally bad solutions like today until it was finally solved.

Her skill tree is fine.  They have spent months on it and it’s good enough, and easily in the top half of skill trees in the game.  It’s time to move on.

[shaurun]

Let me say it. That might be kinda toxic, but I hope not a lot of people will find it in the middle of the topic. I probably just need to say it.

 

I hate Wendy. Not because of her personality - she's actually nice character. But because she's noob character. Long ago in Don't Starve (Alone) you had to kill a creature to spawn Abigail while the flower was dropped on the ground. This summoning was so problematic to spot, that mostly without reading the inernet you had no idea about a ghost sister. And Wendy was kinda,,, worse than Wilson. And I love this Wendy - if you're new, you need to learn on your own how to protect yourself prior to be able to summon murder hobo.

Nowadays DST Wendy gives you protection and farm from the start - butterflies, rabbits, spiders, dogs. You maybe care a bit about sanity, but come on, you have tent from farmed silk. New people I've invited to the game had 0 struggles on Wendy - they've just said "wow I'm OP, I can be useful and I won't ever die". This really IS how it feels to play Wendy. The only thing Wendy was kinda bad at were big mobs - like beefalo heards, treeguards, and bosses of course. I mean, for newcomers. Abigail could die and now they don't know what to do - they've never prepared for a lone fair fight. 

And that was the initial flaw of the character - Wendy alone is weaker, she has easy time with small mobs, harder time with big mobs.

But all complains regarding Wendy are: we want Abigail to survive bosses, so she can kill them also. They could say that's because how they love Wendy's personality and connection with her sister, but honestly, this sounds like a lie. What I see in these complains, is that mostly people have easy time on Wendy, and they want Abigail to solve all their problems with fighting.

Of course we have more OP characters like Wurt - she can win the game without doing anything to be honest. Of course we have people who are capable of fighting alone and played lots of characters, and who views Abi as another option to make the fight more interesting and character related. I respect these people. 

But most of the people who complain that Abi is weak are just long living noobs, who rarely plays any other character as to me. And all the hipe around Wendy seems to me is growing from this - she is too too friendly for noobs.

Thank you for letting me saying that.

 

And yes, on topic - I agree. Paying that much attention to Wendy while less attention to other characters feels unfair.

[Mysterious box]

9 hours ago, Cassielu said:

As a player I think this should be measured by results rather than costs.

With the same amount of time invested, the quality of Wendy's skilltree is significantly lower than that of the other two skilltrees. This means that the development team that work for Wendy skilltree was less productive than the other two development teams and needed more time to produce content of the same quality.

In this case I don't think giving them more time for this team is asking for "priority work", just making up for previous inefficiencies.It also better for future skilltrees so they will not fall into the same bump-up low quality as Wendy does today.

Wendy's skill tree is lower quality than a unfinished one huh? This is why they should just cut their losses do afew minor tweaks and bug fixes and ship her out if after all this time their work is considered  low quality no amount of extra time will satisfy you.

[aidankocherhans]

7 hours ago, shaurun said:

Let me say it. That might be kinda toxic, but I hope not a lot of people will find it in the middle of the topic. I probably just need to say it.

 

I hate Wendy. Not because of her personality - she's actually nice character. But because she's noob character. Long ago in Don't Starve (Alone) you had to kill a creature to spawn Abigail while the flower was dropped on the ground. This summoning was so problematic to spot, that mostly without reading the inernet you had no idea about a ghost sister. And Wendy was kinda,,, worse than Wilson. And I love this Wendy - if you're new, you need to learn on your own how to protect yourself prior to be able to summon murder hobo.

Nowadays DST Wendy gives you protection and farm from the start - butterflies, rabbits, spiders, dogs. You maybe care a bit about sanity, but come on, you have tent from farmed silk. New people I've invited to the game had 0 struggles on Wendy - they've just said "wow I'm OP, I can be useful and I won't ever die". This really IS how it feels to play Wendy. The only thing Wendy was kinda bad at were big mobs - like beefalo heards, treeguards, and bosses of course. I mean, for newcomers. Abigail could die and now they don't know what to do - they've never prepared for a lone fair fight. 

And that was the initial flaw of the character - Wendy alone is weaker, she has easy time with small mobs, harder time with big mobs.

But all complains regarding Wendy are: we want Abigail to survive bosses, so she can kill them also. They could say that's because how they love Wendy's personality and connection with her sister, but honestly, this sounds like a lie. What I see in these complains, is that mostly people have easy time on Wendy, and they want Abigail to solve all their problems with fighting.

Of course we have more OP characters like Wurt - she can win the game without doing anything to be honest. Of course we have people who are capable of fighting alone and played lots of characters, and who views Abi as another option to make the fight more interesting and character related. I respect these people. 

But most of the people who complain that Abi is weak are just long living noobs, who rarely plays any other character as to me. And all the hipe around Wendy seems to me is growing from this - she is too too friendly for noobs.

Thank you for letting me saying that.

 

And yes, on topic - I agree. Paying that much attention to Wendy while less attention to other characters feels unfair.

Dst Wendy is in a weird spot where, due to the greatly increased health of many mobs and increased focus on bosses, Abigail needed to be buffed from a small mob meat grinder to a general support that could help with all combat, and honestly Wendy's a pretty different character from single player. The changes made her downside more complicated, it doesn't apply unless Abigail dies, so there has to be a balance where Abigail can die, but not too easily or for too long? Balancing that is hard.

[Y0sH]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Wendy's skill tree is lower quality than a unfinished one huh? This is why they should just cut their losses do afew minor tweaks and bug fixes and ship her out if after all this time their work is considered  low quality no amount of extra time will satisfy you.

Even visually it's more refined than any other Skilltrees. No other Skilltrees have custom cursors, Ouija Board aesthetics and costum voicelines. In fact if it gets MORE refined it'll spark a "Skilltree Refresh" period eventually.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Y0sH said:

Even visually it's more refined than any other Skilltrees. No other Skilltrees have custom cursors, Ouija Board aesthetics and costum voicelines. In fact if it gets MORE refined it'll spark a "Skilltree Refresh" period eventually.

Oh I know it's the most high quality skill tree to date.

They'll never admit that though.

[Cassielu]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Wendy's skill tree is lower quality than a unfinished one huh? This is why they should just cut their losses do afew minor tweaks and bug fixes and ship her out if after all this time their work is considered  low quality no amount of extra time will satisfy you.

Yeah, maybe that's hard to understand? Imagine a cake that lacks cream and a cake that uses gasoline instead of cream. In order for the latter to qualify as a cake, you have to clean it of gasoline and add normal cream. Obviously the former is closer to a proper cake than the latter.

1 hour ago, Y0sH said:

Even visually it's more refined than any other Skilltrees. No other Skilltrees have custom cursors, Ouija Board aesthetics and costum voicelines. In fact if it gets MORE refined it'll spark a "Skilltree Refresh" period eventually.

I don't know how you interpret this, but "refined than any other Skilltrees" you're talking about is exactly part of her "low quality / gasoline" to me.

They should never have appeared in the first place to ensure that Wendy would fit better into DST's cast of characters.

[YouKnowWho142]

There was a minor point where, although I didn't agree with Wendy being removed from the beta, I sympathized with the idea and understood why that would be the case. However, I can't compel myself to agree at all. Wendy's skill tree is already so much higher quality than a majority of the other skill trees, and a lot of her mechanics were completely fine until backlash resulted in a very disorganized tree. The lack of major changes in recent beta updates suggests that they're getting a sense of what they want for the skill tree, and at this point the skill tree just needs a few changes and tweaks. It seems really counterproductive to continue holding back everything in a skill tree that everyone has a completely different idea for.

Simply removing Wendy from the beta will not work because the only thing that'll happen is the same cycle with Walter.

And I don't get why people here are so obsessed with compressing as many skills as possible. People are viewing skill trees as just character buffs instead of a way to modify a character to one's liking and ultimately add replayability to these characters while fleshing out what already made them special. Everyone wants to get as much value out of every single skill so that they always get everything when they spend all of their insight.