Eggsterminator Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 So, as we all know or have heard at some point, there are still people out there, who think the peculiar lunar plantation is an infant, solely due to the way he speaks, and behaves, and of conviction that he was literally born yesterday. Which by all means is false. That's why I'm here to finally dismantle that belief. I'll present you with several compelling arguments of mine based on throughout research I did on his character overall, and if by the end of this post, you'll still hold firm to that same opinion, then I'm afraid that's out of my hands by that point. If you're willing to stay for the duration of this thesis and hear me out, I'll be very grateful. And please do listen, so we may not make any more misconceptions as such about him in the future. I'll be splitting this post into 5 segments, one with additional subcategories. General Appearance Behavioral Pattern Intelligence Character Interactions Canon Information First of all, let's start with the obvious: General Appearance If we're going to interpret his appearance based on 'human qualities', then physically, compared to actual child characters, Wormwood's design is vastly different. The easiest way for me to prove that lies in one of the recent animations: (Swine & Dine), where all the (live) children are gathered in one place, alongside Wormwood and Wes. Spoiler Spoiler Here, you can distinctly pick apart the difference between the three preteen characters, Walter, (who's likely supposed to be a teenager on the younger side; around 13-14), and the last two. Spoiler The most obvious difference is the jawline. Wormwood, for one, has a massive jaw, easily rivaling that of Maxwell's (while technically, this feature isn't reserved solely for adults, it is more-so common to see an adult with a defined jawline, rather than a child.) Spoiler Spoiler This, alongside his torso being usually depicted as an inverted triangle (at least in the official animations), seem to be features added intentionally somewhere post his release, as he looks much more childlike in his animation video, where he's still technically a sapling per se. Spoiler Even Several of Wormwood's skins showcase that he is in no way meant to be seen in a juvenile way. The best example of that being his Victorian skin. Look me dead in the eye and tell me that's a child. That is one of the most indisputable old man portrayals you can get from an anthropomorphic plant character in media. Do not try and argue how a child is meant to look like that, because neither of the four actual child characters has a skin, which makes them appear that much significantly older than they are. So what reason would Klei have to make his skin look so apparently elder-like if they saw him as a child? Roseate and Guest of Honor could also be used as examples of his more mature skins. While they're not outright elderly, as is the former, the general vibe is similar to that of other adult characters' portraits. Now that we've compared him to human characters and their characteristics, we should take into consideration what he actually is. Let's remember, that at the end of the day, he's partially a plant organism and partially an inorganic crystal from the moon, certainly he ages much differently than us humans, or even most other constant species for that matter. I'm pretty sure he was also formed with a fully developed body (since he seemingly bloomed shortly after forming, which is a trait reserved primarily for mature plants) But then again, appearance alone isn't enough to make one truly adult, is it? Thus we're moving on to: Behavioral pattern A few things you'll immediately realize about Wormwood are his alleged naivety, playful nature and seldom use of grammatical correctness. Due to this, many immediately assume that he's a child, which is understandable, but not a good enough reason to make such an assumption. There are many factors involved in building one's disposition, and in Wormwood's case, there are plenty of reasonable causes for his behavior: As previously stated, he's quite literally a sentient amalgam of vines, brought to life by a jewel from the moon. His origin far disparates that of any known being, especially a human. His mind develops much differently than that of an average person. This correlates with the point above (since it's a big green gem in his chest and not an actual brain). Plus, he likely hadn't had the chance to have a proper education. While he seems to have picked up on a lot of mannerisms from the pigsfolk in Hamlet, I doubt anyone went out of their way to actually school him. He's feral. The majority of his upbringing, he likely spent surviving in the jungle. In a way, he reminds me a lot of Tarzan (A human, who grew up raised by a troop of gorillas after his parents were killed. He can communicate with the local wildlife just fine, but deeply struggles to understand and relate to the outsiders; other humans, who one day arrive on his land.) That's likely the reason why Wormwood refers to certain creatures by mimicking the sounds they make. Perhaps he can understand them to a degree, or at least is trying to. Just because he doesn't speak English, doesn't mean he's slow. It is plausible he speaks a different language, while English doesn't come naturally to him. As is the case with Wolfgang, who has similar speech impediment issues and struggles with saying full sentences, but that's quite literally because English isn't his mother tongue. It's been a running gag that Wolfgang is the embodiment of a European man, and whichever country/countries he might've originated from, it clearly wasn't the UK. This might be the case for Wormwood and whatever constant language he originally thought in. He has certain traits akin to people with autism/Asperger's or ADHD (Nonverbal communication, delayed language development, lacking social cues, sensitive nose, short attention span, hyperactive and somewhat impulsive behavior, wild or exaggerated movement, struggle with fitting in, little sense of awareness, etc.) And I'm speaking from experience with this one, he's quite relatable to me, and many of my friends on the spectrum. And with that let's move on to the third segment. Intelligence Just how smart is he really? Wormwood isn't regarded for his high intellect, that's for sure, but remember, intelligence isn't defined by just the book smarts society imposes on us. Therefore it doesn't always correspond to a person's age and experience. Wormwood, while definitely not on the level of a Harvard graduate, is extremely intelligent and a quick learner at that. Let's digest what we generally know about intelligence and what it means for Wormwood. With the main question at hand: What differentiates a child's mind from an adult's? While he certainly shares some personality traits with Webber, their mindsets are rather different. I'd like to present my point with a simple method. (From that one Quora post, believe it or not, it was the most convenient out of all the theories and tests I found) Dividing that, which is known as a thought process into six subcategories, which are: Cognitive Development Life Experience Responsibility Independence and Autonomy Emotional Regulation Social and Moral Development So let's start with Cognitive Development/Psychology (Definition: The process of growth and change in intellectual/mental abilities such as thinking, reasoning, and understanding. That includes: the ability to interpret information, verbally communicate ideas, appropriately apply words and gestures to given situations, recognize and differentiate various sounds, comprehend your surroundings, use past experience to resolve current or future problems more efficiently, etc. TLDR: How thought process changes with age; Talking, hearing, reading, remembering, problem-solving, understanding, You get the point. ) By this point, Wormwood acquired plenty of general knowledge of the world around him and what to expect from it. (In some cases, he seems to know things without realizing it, or simply wishes to not provide more info of what he's already aware of.) He is capable of understanding various things, and applying appropriate words to them when given the chance. He often struggles to properly phrase what he means, but you can still get around to grasp it. And you know what? He's especially good at deducing things not every character can point out. Here are some of the more obvious to least obvious things he's mentioned: Quote Leaky teacup - "Can't drink from it” Quote Beaten Beater - "Hmm... Can't use it” Quote Start tower kit - "Need to plant it on the water” Quote Compass- "which way?" N- "North S- "South" E- "East" W- "West" NE- "Northeast" SE- "Southeast" NW- "Northwest SW- "Southwest" Spoiler (The direction one would seem pointless to add, but let's remember that there are characters in this game who literally don't know which way is which Winona) Quote Clippings - "Can sell this hair" Spoiler (the plant understands capitalism ) Quote Winona's GEM-erator (out of fuel) - "Oh. Needs sparky" Telelocator Focus (missing gem)- "Needs Purple Shiny" Telelocator Socket (missing gem)- "Where shiny things?" Quote The Queen of Moon Quay: "Oh...she thinks Night Ball is friend hair?" Spoiler (He might know what They are after all) Quote Beast of Hunger (1) - "Oh. Not alive” Spoiler (This, plus any other quote of his mistaking a statue or an object with distinguishable features as alive, does not make him dull; this world literally has statues coming to life. He simply uses a reasoning he acquired from living in the Constant.) Quote Ancient chest - "Put stuff in there!” Spoiler (One of 4 characters to have an inclining what to do with it) Quote Greater Gestalt- "Protect” Hound Corpse (reanimating) - "Coming back” Spoiler (He seems the least bit of surprised or disturbed by this, compared to everyone else) Quote Antlion (upset) - "Oh no. Needs gifts” Spoiler (interestingly, no one else seems to mention why the Antlion is upset) Quote Mysterious Energy- "Seed” Spoiler (...?) Quote Distilled knowledge- "Plant this in funny floor” Spoiler (he's the only one to have figured out what to actually do with it) I think what we all can realize from going through his quotes, is that he is in no way as clueless as he initially seems. He has his moments, but so do the rest of the survivors. Life Experience, Responsibility, and Independence (I've mashed these three together because they play a similar role in his psyche) This plant has lived through a lot, but then again so have the rest, a lot of them have faced countless hardships most of us can't even fathom. From what we already know, the fandom generally believes he is very naive and trusting, which really isn't the case. The thing is, it's not that he's naive, he may not react especially negatively to a creature or thing because he's used to seeing bizarre things, or because he's not afraid of them, unlike the majority of the survivor cast, who are alien to the constant. Barring the in-game mechanics that force characters to be competent regardless of their experience, we're going to focus on his reactions to mobs and items that might pose an actual threat to him or others, or are considered as questionable by him. Quote Inflatable Vest- "Safe?” Quote Shadowcraft plinth- "Scary hands helping?” Quote Fish steak- "Watch for bones” Quote Candy Apple- "Careful! Don't eat stick! “ Quote Platapine (sleeping)- "don't wake it” Quote Sentrypede husk- "Sleeping. Shhh” Quote Sea Stack- "Oops! Watch out! Quote Great Tree Root- "Oh! Don't bump into friends!” Quote Worm hole (open) - "Deep. Dark” Quote Shadow Atrium- “Cold. But still beating…” Quote (When deerclops is near)- "Something scary coming!” Quote Pressure plate- Hmmm...Odd rock” Quote Dread mite (about to explode)- "Look out!" Quote Shadow Reaper - "No...Wants to hurt friends!” Quote Depth Worm (lure) - "Hmm... not safe” Quote Depth Worm (burrowed) - "something hiding” Quote Meat bulb - "Careful!” When mashed together, suddenly the concept of his reckless naivety seems much less plausible. Independence-wise, the one thing I especially took notice of, is how much the child characters seek guidance from the adults in the group, mentioning them by their formal titles too. That's especially frequent with Webber, Wurt, and Walter, though Wendy rarely does this. On one hand, she claims she considers toys and fun to be behind her, but contradictory, enjoys playing with other children and some of the adults. (Besides we canonically know she's 10-11 years old) Wormwood isn't known for wanting to seek guidance either. He's sometimes confused about how certain things work and thus will ask about it, but that's understandable given his predicament. (As someone once mentioned, he's like an extraterrestrial experiencing bits and pieces from 2 different worlds at once) He doesn't really care to play with toys either, (barring a couple of instances, one being Bernie and the others; toys with wheels and Antlion's sand castle. But c'mon, I know some of you grown adults own toy cars/collectibles or build sandcastles when the opportunity arises, you can't lie to me and say neither of these things is fun. Plus, this is literally a forum on video games, and those, not too long ago, were considered childish. Besides, adult characters in this game also goof around. There's the whole sand castle building thing in Shipwrecked, which curiously Wormwood doesn't have a strong opinion on.) But if we were to compare his maturity to other adult characters… Quote (Wilson) [aside his many, many jokes]: Silk- "It comes from a spider's butt." Quote (Willow) Portal Exit - "It's fun to watch OTHER people fall on their butts." Quote (Wolfgang) Coral Nubbin - "Haha. Rock is bald." Quote (WX-78) Regular Jungle Tree (normal and stump) - "THIS DUMB TREE HAS A DUMB FACE" Quote (Wickerbottom) Weregoose - "My! What a silly goose!" Quote (Wigfrid) Plant (ready to be picked) - "Ugh, vegetables. I'm nöt sure what I expected..." Quote (Woodie) Ghost - "Boo! Ha ha!" Quote (Winona) Kingly Figure - "It's BUST-ed! Ha!" Quote (Maxwell) Frazzled Wires - "I might hide those in WX-78's bedroll if I get bored" Quote (Wortox) [But if we were to pick an example of many] Potato Sack- "Hyuyuyu, wouldn't it be fun to hide inside and give him a scare?" Yeah, I think he's good. In this section, I don't have much else to say. He can be cautious, he can be daft. He joggles the brain cells alongside the rest of the survivors. But all in all, I would not consider him any more reckless or goofy than either the child or adult characters. Independence-wise, while he can absolutely manage just fine on his own, his desire for companionship far outweighs that. And since we've already talked about maturity, let's move on to: Emotional Regulation Despite common belief, Wormwood is not overly emotional. While, yes, he is excitable and easy to impress, he doesn't usually display intense negative emotions, unless something (more often than not wooden) is destroyed, or unless a plant or a creature he likes suffers. But then again, in those situations, it's logical to display panic, worry, and grief. Imagine if your family member or friend suddenly caught on fire and burned before your eyes... Yeah, I bet no one morally adjusted would be the slightest bit composed in those kinds of situations… Worse yet, the majority of the Constant is filled with plants, most of whom are his friends, the closest to his kind, beings that display varying amounts of sentience… In actuality, the children, including Wendy, display a shift in emotions much more frequently than Wormwood does. Then there's Willow, WX-78, Woodie (birds), and Maxwell, who all have even less emotional stability. In comparison, I'd say he handles most situations rather maturely and nonchalantly. Social & Moral Development Ah yes, the ability to differentiate right from wrong, morality, patos or however you would call it. Now this one's a little tricky, on one hand, while he may react strongly to a plant's demise, his reaction varies when it comes to animals and structures. Sometimes, he doesn't bat an eye, frankly, other times, he displays intense amounts of grief. I guess that's the definition of selective empathy. Curiously, he has 2 separate quotes for a pigeon. One from Hamlet, where he seems a lot more distressed when it perishes, and the other, from The Gorge, where he simply states the fact "Oh. Dead." I'd like to imagine this was intentional to sort of give him that fading care many of us experience as we grow older. Here's another example: Quote [Hamlet] Glowfly (dead) - "(sob)” Quote [DST, Host of Horrors update] Koalefant Carcass - "Braump...? Not anymore” Regarding the other survivors; for the most part, he sympathizes with them. Though he doesn't panic much when they die from average constant shenanigans. He likely knows it's not permanent or consequential. He does show pity when some of the others' precious belongings get destroyed or damaged. Quote Winona's Catapult (burnt)- "Fire bad" Winona's Spotlight (burnt)- "Oh. So sad" Mighty Gym (burnt)- "Oh... poor muscle man..." He is mindful when someone claims a seat he was about to use: Quote Occupied wooden chair/stool- ”That okay! Will sit somewhere else” Or in some instances, when a character strongly disapproves of something, he takes notice of that: Quote Nautipilot - "Robot friend doesn't like Pull Rock” Speaking of robots, he also seems to have developed a sympathy for them, considering his quote for W.O.B.O.T Quote Broken W O.B.O.T- “Help! Grabby friend is hurt!” What's interesting is that, while he calls many creatures his friends, he specifically avoids calling Maxwell that. He even considers Lucy, Willow, and Woodie his friends, which is just... wow. May he harbor a grudge against him for what he did to the other survivors? Something more personal? Or is it more so related to the fact he's fully siding with the shadows... Most likely the former. Overall I would say he's definitely more empathetic than not, and one doesn't have to care for every living being after all. Thus we're done with the Intelligence section. Are you still convinced he's that dumb? Character Interrelations Regarding what other characters think of how old he is…Debatable. Keep in mind, that the characters don't have to be fully aware, or can misinterpret his age based on his behavior alone. Most people just refer to him as some form of "plant", unsurprisingly. There are characters like Winona, who seem to intentionally downplay his age. Winona in her quotes refers to both Wormwood and Wilson (who's officially in his 30s) as 'bucko' (a lively, young fellow. Or in some cases a friend, or another version of buddy). As for her quotes for Bramble trap and Compost wrap, she refers to Wormwood with the terms 'lil plant fella' and 'little guy'. She pretty much just teases people who are younger than her or seem younger. Or she genuinely believes he's actually that young. There are plenty of instances of people calling him a variation of little, small or sapling, which might just be how they see him. Again, just because a character may think he's on the younger side, does not mean their interpretation is the absolute firm belief you should uphold. Then, for a change of heart, there's Wolfgang and Wurt, who both firmly believe that he's a grown adult. Quote (Wolfgang) Generic - "Is leafy green man, %s! Hello!" Firestarter - "Leafy green man did a fire booboo." Syrup of Ipecaca - "Will leafy green man be sad if Wolfgang doesn't have a taste?" (Wolfgang only calls him little once in his quotes, because he calls everyone little, children though, he refers to as very tiny + boy/girl/child, so there's that.) Quote (Wurt) Attacker- "Ow! You mean old weed!” You might think; why would I care about what a child and a man who's considered to not be so bright think? Well, my previous point about language barriers explains that for Wolfgang. Besides, Wurt is a constant-born creature who builds an entire kingdom in her play style, by no means, is she clueless. She also refers to Deerclops and Antlion as 'She', while most of the other characters use he or it. What's interesting is that Wickerbottom also tends to avoid referring to him with youthful terms, aside from the obvious "dear" she uses for everyone and everything. If anything, she's more patronizing towards Woodie, Wilson, Winona, and Wigfrid. (All of whom are in between their late 20s-40s) Lastly, we have: Canon Information While there isn't much information relating to his age, there are hints in the game canon that can give you an indication. In the game's compendium, where the survivors' profile, backstory, and description reside, three of the four kids have 'young' in their introduction. Barring Walter, who instead has 'boy' which is as much of a youthful term. Wormwood is simply stated as 'an amalgam of vines', not a seedling, sapling, or a young/little plant. From his backstory, we know that: "A green gem fell from the moon, landing on an ancient stone monument in the middle of overgrown rubble. Over a long period of time, a vine encircled the gem and eventually formed a humanoid figure sitting on the monument. The figure, Wormwood, opened his eyes and looked at his hands. (...)” (Now this simply explains that a lot of time has passed as he was forming, unlike what's shown in his animation, where his body instantly forms.) There's also this part of his bio. “Though the circumstances of his creation were unusual at best, Wormwood came into this world full of optimism and curiosity, ready to make new friends and see all that life had to offer. But as time wore on and he experienced the cold sting of rejection, he came to learn what the moon above had always known: Wormwood the Lonesome does not belong here.” It's implied that a while has passed since his birth. Everyone assumes that he was just created recently and that he doesn't know anything, but as I've just shown you, he's very perceptive when it matters. He has the knowledge and experience, even insight or a hunch. He can determine things others can't. Ever since Hamlet happened, his quotes gradually became somewhat more apathetic towards creatures dying, as opposed to the worry and care he previously displayed. I wouldn't say he's exactly an adult the same way the human characters are, but he's in no way a child as many presume him to be. (It kind of reminds me of how certain Greek gods are created; some are formed as adults, some grow and then eventually stop, and some come to be under very strange and specific circumstances, Aphrodite but overall, you can't exactly compare their maturing process to that of a human.) Meanwhile, Wormwood is an alien plant with a crystal for a brain. So by the end of this post, are you still inclined to believe he's a child? Was this completely unnecessary and took far too long to construct? Yes. Do I regret making this? Nah. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 true Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copyafriend Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 I like your post sir, both informative and well written. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porkus Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 What compelled you to spend this much time on Wormwood's age and making a post about it Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 He's literally 5 year old irl. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggsterminator Posted June 16, 2024 Author Share Posted June 16, 2024 32 minutes ago, Carrion_DS said: What compelled you to spend this much time on Wormwood's age and making a post about it Demons Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 Wormwood wrote this post to try to convince the DMV to give him a license despite what it says on his birth certificate. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reiko24 Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 I can't believe i read it all Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 The wood is strong with this worm Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valase Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 Thank you for giving us a really long explanation on something that I never thought about. But tell me, does the constant have internet access now, Ms. Wickerbottom? Jokes aside, I loved it! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPCMaxwell Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 For me, Wormwood didn't seem like a child at all. But maybe that's because I don't really see why the speech pattern he shows should be showing his age, when he isn't a human character to begin with. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 12 hours ago, SSneaky said: Lord knows what a bull (male) Deerclops can do/looks like. They look the same as the original dialogue referred to it as a he with some future dialogue calling it a she so I imagine we just encounter both genders... or the cast is just guessing it's gender? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPCMaxwell Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 48 minutes ago, Mysterious box said: They look the same as the original dialogue referred to it as a he with some future dialogue calling it a she so I imagine we just encounter both genders... or the cast is just guessing it's gender? or maybe there is no gender-dysmorphia in them so although the canon deerclops is a male wurt may just guess him for a female. Since she also know happened to know female ones, that happened to look the same. I don't know but this sort of gender-assigning by speech lines only confuses me a bit too. As far as I remember for example, Maxwell when trying to shave an awake beefalo it is a female "I don't think she'd take kindly to that." , but when Wilson tries to shave the exact same beefale when awake he will say "I'm not going to try that while he's awake." Maybe it's just difficult to tell the genders of the creatures so the characters just guess it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1725897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedingAlien Posted June 28, 2024 Share Posted June 28, 2024 Literally logged into this old account I forgot I even had just to sing this old post some praises. I remember reading this on another platform and I will never get over how much I love this thesis. You really did some justice on the whole Wormwood age debate and all your work for this entire explanation here will always be amazing! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1730020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterWondering Posted July 24, 2024 Share Posted July 24, 2024 Am I late? Yes. But this is amazing. This genuinely made me reconsider a lot of my assumptions around Wormwood, and further appreciate his character a lot more. Great citing of sources and usage of quotes to back up ideas. Great work. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creatorofswamps Posted July 24, 2024 Share Posted July 24, 2024 You completely convinced me) but now I have a question that torments me at night, "Wes" a child or not? And yes, I wanted to say that it is very pleasant to read. I would read a discussion about other characters as well. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octohunter777 Posted July 24, 2024 Share Posted July 24, 2024 On 6/15/2024 at 10:52 PM, Eggsterminator said: So, as we all know or have heard at some point, there are still people out there, who think the peculiar lunar plantation is an infant, solely due to the way he speaks, and behaves, and of conviction that he was literally born yesterday. Which by all means is false. That's why I'm here to finally dismantle that belief. I'll present you with several compelling arguments of mine based on throughout research I did on his character overall, and if by the end of this post, you'll still hold firm to that same opinion, then I'm afraid that's out of my hands by that point. If you're willing to stay for the duration of this thesis and hear me out, I'll be very grateful. And please do listen, so we may not make any more misconceptions as such about him in the future. I'll be splitting this post into 5 segments, one with additional subcategories. General Appearance Behavioral Pattern Intelligence Character Interactions Canon Information First of all, let's start with the obvious: General Appearance If we're going to interpret his appearance based on 'human qualities', then physically, compared to actual child characters, Wormwood's design is vastly different. The easiest way for me to prove that lies in one of the recent animations: (Swine & Dine), where all the (live) children are gathered in one place, alongside Wormwood and Wes. Reveal hidden contents Reveal hidden contents Here, you can distinctly pick apart the difference between the three preteen characters, Walter, (who's likely supposed to be a teenager on the younger side; around 13-14), and the last two. Reveal hidden contents The most obvious difference is the jawline. Wormwood, for one, has a massive jaw, easily rivaling that of Maxwell's (while technically, this feature isn't reserved solely for adults, it is more-so common to see an adult with a defined jawline, rather than a child.) Reveal hidden contents Reveal hidden contents This, alongside his torso being usually depicted as an inverted triangle (at least in the official animations), seem to be features added intentionally somewhere post his release, as he looks much more childlike in his animation video, where he's still technically a sapling per se. Reveal hidden contents Even Several of Wormwood's skins showcase that he is in no way meant to be seen in a juvenile way. The best example of that being his Victorian skin. Look me dead in the eye and tell me that's a child. That is one of the most indisputable old man portrayals you can get from an anthropomorphic plant character in media. Do not try and argue how a child is meant to look like that, because neither of the four actual child characters has a skin, which makes them appear that much significantly older than they are. So what reason would Klei have to make his skin look so apparently elder-like if they saw him as a child? Roseate and Guest of Honor could also be used as examples of his more mature skins. While they're not outright elderly, as is the former, the general vibe is similar to that of other adult characters' portraits. Now that we've compared him to human characters and their characteristics, we should take into consideration what he actually is. Let's remember, that at the end of the day, he's partially a plant organism and partially an inorganic crystal from the moon, certainly he ages much differently than us humans, or even most other constant species for that matter. I'm pretty sure he was also formed with a fully developed body (since he seemingly bloomed shortly after forming, which is a trait reserved primarily for mature plants) But then again, appearance alone isn't enough to make one truly adult, is it? Thus we're moving on to: Behavioral pattern A few things you'll immediately realize about Wormwood are his alleged naivety, playful nature and seldom use of grammatical correctness. Due to this, many immediately assume that he's a child, which is understandable, but not a good enough reason to make such an assumption. There are many factors involved in building one's disposition, and in Wormwood's case, there are plenty of reasonable causes for his behavior: As previously stated, he's quite literally a sentient amalgam of vines, brought to life by a jewel from the moon. His origin far disparates that of any known being, especially a human. His mind develops much differently than that of an average person. This correlates with the point above (since it's a big green gem in his chest and not an actual brain). Plus, he likely hadn't had the chance to have a proper education. While he seems to have picked up on a lot of mannerisms from the pigsfolk in Hamlet, I doubt anyone went out of their way to actually school him. He's feral. The majority of his upbringing, he likely spent surviving in the jungle. In a way, he reminds me a lot of Tarzan (A human, who grew up raised by a troop of gorillas after his parents were killed. He can communicate with the local wildlife just fine, but deeply struggles to understand and relate to the outsiders; other humans, who one day arrive on his land.) That's likely the reason why Wormwood refers to certain creatures by mimicking the sounds they make. Perhaps he can understand them to a degree, or at least is trying to. Just because he doesn't speak English, doesn't mean he's slow. It is plausible he speaks a different language, while English doesn't come naturally to him. As is the case with Wolfgang, who has similar speech impediment issues and struggles with saying full sentences, but that's quite literally because English isn't his mother tongue. It's been a running gag that Wolfgang is the embodiment of a European man, and whichever country/countries he might've originated from, it clearly wasn't the UK. This might be the case for Wormwood and whatever constant language he originally thought in. He has certain traits akin to people with autism/Asperger's or ADHD (Nonverbal communication, delayed language development, lacking social cues, sensitive nose, short attention span, hyperactive and somewhat impulsive behavior, wild or exaggerated movement, struggle with fitting in, little sense of awareness, etc.) And I'm speaking from experience with this one, he's quite relatable to me, and many of my friends on the spectrum. And with that let's move on to the third segment. Intelligence Just how smart is he really? Wormwood isn't regarded for his high intellect, that's for sure, but remember, intelligence isn't defined by just the book smarts society imposes on us. Therefore it doesn't always correspond to a person's age and experience. Wormwood, while definitely not on the level of a Harvard graduate, is extremely intelligent and a quick learner at that. Let's digest what we generally know about intelligence and what it means for Wormwood. With the main question at hand: What differentiates a child's mind from an adult's? While he certainly shares some personality traits with Webber, their mindsets are rather different. I'd like to present my point with a simple method. (From that one Quora post, believe it or not, it was the most convenient out of all the theories and tests I found) Dividing that, which is known as a thought process into six subcategories, which are: Cognitive Development Life Experience Responsibility Independence and Autonomy Emotional Regulation Social and Moral Development So let's start with Cognitive Development/Psychology (Definition: The process of growth and change in intellectual/mental abilities such as thinking, reasoning, and understanding. That includes: the ability to interpret information, verbally communicate ideas, appropriately apply words and gestures to given situations, recognize and differentiate various sounds, comprehend your surroundings, use past experience to resolve current or future problems more efficiently, etc. TLDR: How thought process changes with age; Talking, hearing, reading, remembering, problem-solving, understanding, You get the point. ) By this point, Wormwood acquired plenty of general knowledge of the world around him and what to expect from it. (In some cases, he seems to know things without realizing it, or simply wishes to not provide more info of what he's already aware of.) He is capable of understanding various things, and applying appropriate words to them when given the chance. He often struggles to properly phrase what he means, but you can still get around to grasp it. And you know what? He's especially good at deducing things not every character can point out. Here are some of the more obvious to least obvious things he's mentioned: Reveal hidden contents (The direction one would seem pointless to add, but let's remember that there are characters in this game who literally don't know which way is which Winona) Reveal hidden contents (the plant understands capitalism ) Reveal hidden contents (He might know what They are after all) Reveal hidden contents (This, plus any other quote of his mistaking a statue or an object with distinguishable features as alive, does not make him dull; this world literally has statues coming to life. He simply uses a reasoning he acquired from living in the Constant.) Reveal hidden contents (One of 4 characters to have an inclining what to do with it) Reveal hidden contents (He seems the least bit of surprised or disturbed by this, compared to everyone else) Reveal hidden contents (interestingly, no one else seems to mention why the Antlion is upset) Reveal hidden contents (...?) Reveal hidden contents (he's the only one to have figured out what to actually do with it) I think what we all can realize from going through his quotes, is that he is in no way as clueless as he initially seems. He has his moments, but so do the rest of the survivors. Life Experience, Responsibility, and Independence (I've mashed these three together because they play a similar role in his psyche) This plant has lived through a lot, but then again so have the rest, a lot of them have faced countless hardships most of us can't even fathom. From what we already know, the fandom generally believes he is very naive and trusting, which really isn't the case. The thing is, it's not that he's naive, he may not react especially negatively to a creature or thing because he's used to seeing bizarre things, or because he's not afraid of them, unlike the majority of the survivor cast, who are alien to the constant. Barring the in-game mechanics that force characters to be competent regardless of their experience, we're going to focus on his reactions to mobs and items that might pose an actual threat to him or others, or are considered as questionable by him. When mashed together, suddenly the concept of his reckless naivety seems much less plausible. Independence-wise, the one thing I especially took notice of, is how much the child characters seek guidance from the adults in the group, mentioning them by their formal titles too. That's especially frequent with Webber, Wurt, and Walter, though Wendy rarely does this. On one hand, she claims she considers toys and fun to be behind her, but contradictory, enjoys playing with other children and some of the adults. (Besides we canonically know she's 10-11 years old) Wormwood isn't known for wanting to seek guidance either. He's sometimes confused about how certain things work and thus will ask about it, but that's understandable given his predicament. (As someone once mentioned, he's like an extraterrestrial experiencing bits and pieces from 2 different worlds at once) He doesn't really care to play with toys either, (barring a couple of instances, one being Bernie and the others; toys with wheels and Antlion's sand castle. But c'mon, I know some of you grown adults own toy cars/collectibles or build sandcastles when the opportunity arises, you can't lie to me and say neither of these things is fun. Plus, this is literally a forum on video games, and those, not too long ago, were considered childish. Besides, adult characters in this game also goof around. There's the whole sand castle building thing in Shipwrecked, which curiously Wormwood doesn't have a strong opinion on.) But if we were to compare his maturity to other adult characters… Yeah, I think he's good. In this section, I don't have much else to say. He can be cautious, he can be daft. He joggles the brain cells alongside the rest of the survivors. But all in all, I would not consider him any more reckless or goofy than either the child or adult characters. Independence-wise, while he can absolutely manage just fine on his own, his desire for companionship far outweighs that. And since we've already talked about maturity, let's move on to: Emotional Regulation Despite common belief, Wormwood is not overly emotional. While, yes, he is excitable and easy to impress, he doesn't usually display intense negative emotions, unless something (more often than not wooden) is destroyed, or unless a plant or a creature he likes suffers. But then again, in those situations, it's logical to display panic, worry, and grief. Imagine if your family member or friend suddenly caught on fire and burned before your eyes... Yeah, I bet no one morally adjusted would be the slightest bit composed in those kinds of situations… Worse yet, the majority of the Constant is filled with plants, most of whom are his friends, the closest to his kind, beings that display varying amounts of sentience… In actuality, the children, including Wendy, display a shift in emotions much more frequently than Wormwood does. Then there's Willow, WX-78, Woodie (birds), and Maxwell, who all have even less emotional stability. In comparison, I'd say he handles most situations rather maturely and nonchalantly. Social & Moral Development Ah yes, the ability to differentiate right from wrong, morality, patos or however you would call it. Now this one's a little tricky, on one hand, while he may react strongly to a plant's demise, his reaction varies when it comes to animals and structures. Sometimes, he doesn't bat an eye, frankly, other times, he displays intense amounts of grief. I guess that's the definition of selective empathy. Curiously, he has 2 separate quotes for a pigeon. One from Hamlet, where he seems a lot more distressed when it perishes, and the other, from The Gorge, where he simply states the fact "Oh. Dead." I'd like to imagine this was intentional to sort of give him that fading care many of us experience as we grow older. Here's another example: Regarding the other survivors; for the most part, he sympathizes with them. Though he doesn't panic much when they die from average constant shenanigans. He likely knows it's not permanent or consequential. He does show pity when some of the others' precious belongings get destroyed or damaged. He is mindful when someone claims a seat he was about to use: Or in some instances, when a character strongly disapproves of something, he takes notice of that: Speaking of robots, he also seems to have developed a sympathy for them, considering his quote for W.O.B.O.T What's interesting is that, while he calls many creatures his friends, he specifically avoids calling Maxwell that. He even considers Lucy, Willow, and Woodie his friends, which is just... wow. May he harbor a grudge against him for what he did to the other survivors? Something more personal? Or is it more so related to the fact he's fully siding with the shadows... Most likely the former. Overall I would say he's definitely more empathetic than not, and one doesn't have to care for every living being after all. Thus we're done with the Intelligence section. Are you still convinced he's that dumb? Character Interrelations Regarding what other characters think of how old he is…Debatable. Keep in mind, that the characters don't have to be fully aware, or can misinterpret his age based on his behavior alone. Most people just refer to him as some form of "plant", unsurprisingly. There are characters like Winona, who seem to intentionally downplay his age. Winona in her quotes refers to both Wormwood and Wilson (who's officially in his 30s) as 'bucko' (a lively, young fellow. Or in some cases a friend, or another version of buddy). As for her quotes for Bramble trap and Compost wrap, she refers to Wormwood with the terms 'lil plant fella' and 'little guy'. She pretty much just teases people who are younger than her or seem younger. Or she genuinely believes he's actually that young. There are plenty of instances of people calling him a variation of little, small or sapling, which might just be how they see him. Again, just because a character may think he's on the younger side, does not mean their interpretation is the absolute firm belief you should uphold. Then, for a change of heart, there's Wolfgang and Wurt, who both firmly believe that he's a grown adult. (Wolfgang only calls him little once in his quotes, because he calls everyone little, children though, he refers to as very tiny + boy/girl/child, so there's that.) You might think; why would I care about what a child and a man who's considered to not be so bright think? Well, my previous point about language barriers explains that for Wolfgang. Besides, Wurt is a constant-born creature who builds an entire kingdom in her play style, by no means, is she clueless. She also refers to Deerclops and Antlion as 'She', while most of the other characters use he or it. What's interesting is that Wickerbottom also tends to avoid referring to him with youthful terms, aside from the obvious "dear" she uses for everyone and everything. If anything, she's more patronizing towards Woodie, Wilson, Winona, and Wigfrid. (All of whom are in between their late 20s-40s) Lastly, we have: Canon Information While there isn't much information relating to his age, there are hints in the game canon that can give you an indication. In the game's compendium, where the survivors' profile, backstory, and description reside, three of the four kids have 'young' in their introduction. Barring Walter, who instead has 'boy' which is as much of a youthful term. Wormwood is simply stated as 'an amalgam of vines', not a seedling, sapling, or a young/little plant. From his backstory, we know that: "A green gem fell from the moon, landing on an ancient stone monument in the middle of overgrown rubble. Over a long period of time, a vine encircled the gem and eventually formed a humanoid figure sitting on the monument. The figure, Wormwood, opened his eyes and looked at his hands. (...)” (Now this simply explains that a lot of time has passed as he was forming, unlike what's shown in his animation, where his body instantly forms.) There's also this part of his bio. “Though the circumstances of his creation were unusual at best, Wormwood came into this world full of optimism and curiosity, ready to make new friends and see all that life had to offer. But as time wore on and he experienced the cold sting of rejection, he came to learn what the moon above had always known: Wormwood the Lonesome does not belong here.” It's implied that a while has passed since his birth. Everyone assumes that he was just created recently and that he doesn't know anything, but as I've just shown you, he's very perceptive when it matters. He has the knowledge and experience, even insight or a hunch. He can determine things others can't. Ever since Hamlet happened, his quotes gradually became somewhat more apathetic towards creatures dying, as opposed to the worry and care he previously displayed. I wouldn't say he's exactly an adult the same way the human characters are, but he's in no way a child as many presume him to be. (It kind of reminds me of how certain Greek gods are created; some are formed as adults, some grow and then eventually stop, and some come to be under very strange and specific circumstances, Aphrodite but overall, you can't exactly compare their maturing process to that of a human.) Meanwhile, Wormwood is an alien plant with a crystal for a brain. So by the end of this post, are you still inclined to believe he's a child? Was this completely unnecessary and took far too long to construct? Yes. Do I regret making this? Nah. ...This was written by WaokeVale. It's on their Tumblr page. Did you steal this? This is word-for-word the same, down to the font. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uedo Posted July 24, 2024 Share Posted July 24, 2024 I'm not sure if anyone has said this already, but wormwood would be classed as an infant in the sense that WW is new to this world. /End thesis. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormboi Posted July 24, 2024 Share Posted July 24, 2024 Poster stole this from someone? For shame. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octohunter777 Posted July 24, 2024 Share Posted July 24, 2024 Nevermind, I checked. It's the original person, different username. All good! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty_Mentos Posted July 24, 2024 Share Posted July 24, 2024 His age is, like, zero, considering he's a survivor, has a soul and can be resurrected. If how Constant works is true and it's a forever loop then age for him is irrelevant as he's like a spawn of ancient gem and plants anyway. Could say he's just a year old or something, but his gem is probably millions or billions of years old while the plants are like whatever grows at the time before dying away and regrowing again. He is capable well of performing complex tasks yet his ability to talk is unknown where it comes from even, he isn't supposed to talk unless he communicates kinda telepathically like how he can with plants or organic material, meaning survivors count and it's gem magic. Green gems open people's minds and mess with laws of physics to cut down on resource costs to create new resource in return or break down fundamentals to how the structure was built. Likely green gems are now canon to telepathy and powerful manipulation over surroundings to reshape and create things, how he can grow plants. I say that his age doesn't matter and we can set it as X. Whoever disagrees with it it's fine, because this is an open ended kinda thing. He can be adult, he can be young, he can be anything because that's a plant with a rock with personality of someone with autism spectrum. I don't care about his age, when I think of it I just say "he's capable of taking care of himself". Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggsterminator Posted July 25, 2024 Author Share Posted July 25, 2024 On 7/24/2024 at 5:31 PM, Octohunter777 said: Nevermind, I checked. It's the original person, different username. All good! On 7/24/2024 at 4:52 PM, Octohunter777 said: ...This was written by WaokeVale. It's on their Tumblr page. Did you steal this? This is word-for-word the same, down to the font. I admit it, I stole my own post and did not credit my main account! (mostly cause I don't want that username to intermix with the forums, but oh well, it was inevitable xp) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octohunter777 Posted July 25, 2024 Share Posted July 25, 2024 30 minutes ago, Eggsterminator said: I admit it, I stole my own post and did not credit my main account! (mostly cause I don't want that username to intermix with the forums, but oh well, it was inevitable xp) Sorry, my bad I just wanted to make sure your work wasn't being plagiarized. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
viblym Posted July 25, 2024 Share Posted July 25, 2024 This is kind of a weird thing to post. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octohunter777 Posted July 25, 2024 Share Posted July 25, 2024 12 minutes ago, viblym said: This is kind of a weird thing to post. Believe me, for the kind of person who obsessively analyzes fictional characters they like - this is quite normal. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/157189-a-clarification-to-wormwoods-age-and-why-hes-fully-fledged-without-a-shred-of-doubt/#findComment-1737736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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