[Poll] Should Maxwell be able to read Wickerbottom's books?

[Riddla]

I am curious about everyone's stance on his ability, and would like to gauge opinions.

Feel free to speak your mind, and please don't fight!

[Gashzer]

Nope, old mechanic from a bygone age. Should be removed for the same reason that the winona skilltree is removing the ability for other players to start her catapults.

[Mike23Ua]

Let me put it this way, if Maxwell needs the perks of another characters rework to be considered as a fun and good character, then what does that actually say about Maxwells own perks? -_-

Easiest answer I’ve ever given!

[Cruvimaster]

Taking advantage of the same logic:

1. Should the other characters use Winona's catapults?

And the most important:

2. Should characters have bonuses from Warly recipes, especially the damage multiplier?

The important thing about the answer is that the solutions are the same for all 3 (Winona, Warly and Wickerbottom).

[ChintzyGnat]

36 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Nope, old mechanic from a bygone age. Should be removed for the same reason that the winona skilltree is removing the ability for other players to start her catapults.

Pretty sure they said others can use them. It's just winnona who can use them to the fullest

[Cruvimaster]

What would be contradictory is a main Wickerbottom wanting to restrict Maxwell, but wanting to use Winona's catapults and Warly's recipes freely. And they'll still want to use the Magician's Chest (which only Maxwell can do, ironic, right!?)

[Gashzer]

7 minutes ago, ChintzyGnat said:

Pretty sure they said others can use them. It's just winnona who can use them to the fullest

I believe they said winona needs to start them initially but we wont be able to swap off winona and still use catapults.

 

7 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

What would be contradictory is a main Wickerbottom wanting to restrict Maxwell, but wanting to use Winona's catapults and Warly's recipes freely.

Warly is the only one who can make them. And his dishes will eventually run out. Library makes it so you never need to be wickerbottom again.

[TizianOwO]

I'm a Maxwell main and while it makes total sense lore wise, it doesn't quite feel right being able to bogart a character's main mechanic. I don't like characters being effectively relegated to "swap only" where you craft their unique tools, swap to someone "better" and then never use them again.

We haven't seen the whole thing but I'm glad Winona's skilltree seems to be moving her away from that because she had it the worst out of anyone.

[Cruvimaster]

20 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Warly is the only one who can make them. And his dishes will eventually run out. Library makes it so you never need to be wickerbottom again.

The Wickerbottom players' grounds for complaint are the same as those of Winona, Wilson and Warly.

They are complaining about the fact that the characters are just temporary portal exchanges.

The issue is that Wicker only shares her books with Maxwell and Wurt (curious that no one talks about this one). The rest is up to everyone.

Anyone can use the product of Wilsom's skill tree conversions. All of Warly's advantages go to anyone, but the penalties are only for him. Winona I don't even need to say much.

Now imagine a world with 6 Wickerbottoms who use the portal to use the Magician's Chest across the map and then never use Maxwell again.

This debate goes much deeper, but players want to remain just on the surface.

[Gashzer]

6 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

The Wickerbottom players' grounds for complaint are the same as those of Winona, Wilson and Warly.

They are complaining about the fact that the characters are just temporary portal exchanges.

The issue is that Wicker only shares her books with Maxwell and Wurt (curious that no one talks about this one). The rest is up to everyone.

Anyone can use the product of Wilsom's skill tree conversions. All of Warly's advantages go to anyone, but the penalties are only for him. Winona I don't even need to say much.

Now imagine a world with 6 Wickerbottoms who use the portal to use the Magician's Chest across the map and then never use Maxwell again.

This debate goes much deeper, but players want to remain just on the surface.

But if you run out of warly's food you NEED to switch to him again to cook his food. Wickerbottom can make all her books and a few bookcases then maxwell can use all of her power. Wurt only gains and loses sanity which is not the same as actually using the book. 

You still need to swap to wilson to use his conversions. And wickerbottom doesnt have access to maxwells spells. Winona is going to be fixed soon so the wilson,warly, winona comparsion is definitely not accurate.

[Cruvimaster]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

But if you run out of warly's food you NEED to switch to him again to cook his food. Wickerbottom can make all her books and a few bookcases then maxwell can use all of her power. Wurt only gains and loses sanity which is not the same as actually using the book. 

You still need to swap to wilson to use his conversions. And wickerbottom doesnt have access to maxwells spells. Winona is going to be fixed soon so the wilson,warly, winona comparsion is definitely not accurate.

 

I have a world of almost 3k days and know how many times I had to use Warly? If it was 4 times it was a lot and for very few days.

Now you know how many times I needed Wilson? At least 7 times.

I'm not saying that Klei must end this or that. Let it be clear. I just think the solution should be the same for consistency. And I assure you that those who play Wickerbottom have more to lose with it.

[grm9]

i doubt that people'll have more fun when playing as wilson that can read books in comparison to playing as a character with a lot of fun perks that can read books and i wouldn't want strats like swapping to wicker for lightning book for moonstorm to simply become slightly more annoying and require going to moonstorm as wicker to read it and back to portal instead of just swapping to maxwell after making the book

[Auth]

Currently a Max main because of this. And I hate it.

Maxwell's current level of utility post-refresh is already ludicrous, considering the level of which characters started out from. The fact he only gets more potent the later you get into the game with better shadow equipment really makes him quite crazy- And while it's normally a very bad metric to judge how good a character is, in boss fights, there are quite a few that Maxwell can just sit in the background and wait for them to fall over dead (One of which being Celestial Champion which just feels nuts that you don't need to engage in the fight whatsoever as Maxwell)

This comes with the "downside" that his kit requires nightmare fuel. And low health I guess, but when his kit can be used in a way (albeit, a boring way, but it's still effective) that allows him to completely ignore whatever he's using it against, it's not an issue whatsoever. His kit is good on it's own, by a lot. It's scarily good at times.

Now, in comes the Wickerbottom books. Not only do they give Maxwell all of the crazy utility of Wicker, with food production, world manipulation, resources, krampus farming, plus additional combat power, (Max with full minions and grumbles can sometimes kill dfly before she even enrages once, for example, and that's without even having to use shadow prison) but they also solve Maxwell's fuel deficiency. In a weird sort of attempt at a balance it seems, Maxwell loses substantially more sanity reading Wicker's books than she does. And reading a book that would take more sanity than you currently have instantly spawns a nightmare unless you're on lunar. While this might be considered a downside, it's realistically nothing but an upside for him. If you fill a bookshelf with books and spam read them, you have a ludicrously efficient nightmare fuel farm as instead of waiting for nightmares to spawn, you're forcing them to spawn. Chances are this will be happening anyways if you're doing this strategy, as you'll be spawning grumble bees in big numbers or making every night a full moon or whatever the heck you feel like doing. Now Max doesn't even need to get his hands dirty going all the way down to the caves & killing splumonkeys for fuel unless you just want to for the fun of it.

After crafting all the books you need, the only time you ever really need to switch to wicker is if something somehow destroys a bookshelf, which is also assuming you won't just roll it back. There is really no reason to play as Wicker for her skills when Maxwell is just given extra incentives for his own playstyle and abilities getting buffed by her items. It really sucks that it's just a one-way relationship, at the end of the day. Seeing what others say about the matter in this thread & others really just proves my point, there's no incentive to play her when the other option gets even more utility from it.

Before, when her books were few and pretty niche, and when Maxwell just plain sucked, him being able to read her books was kind of cute, if anything. Like yeah, it makes sense. But now it just truly overloads his kit once you learn what you're doing with him, and leaves Wickerbottom just a crafting station for Maxwell mains, leaving her with nothing but an early shovel and backpack to stand on her own, I guess.

If I were to suggest anything, I would say that maybe Maxwell still could use her books, but that they'd be dramatically weaker effects or even have a cooldown for him so he can't use them as freely as her, as well as maybe give Wicker some unique interactions with her books to really separate her from him in terms of how they're used; or all of the above. Something to actually incentivize picking her over him once your skill level gets to a point where you can comfortably handle them both, while not outright robbing Maxwell of it, more of just scooting it back towards that "Yeah, it's a cute feature" territory.

Also in general giving Wickerbottom more actual perks & quirks and less items when it comes time for her skill tree would go miles to help differentiate her.

[Cheggf]

Him being able to read her books is the least problematic part of the character.

1 hour ago, TizianOwO said:

I'm a Maxwell main and while it makes total sense lore wise, it doesn't quite feel right being able to bogart a character's main mechanic. I don't like characters being effectively relegated to "swap only" where you craft their unique tools, swap to someone "better" and then never use them again.

We haven't seen the whole thing but I'm glad Winona's skilltree seems to be moving her away from that because she had it the worst out of anyone.

Everyone is a "swap character" for someone with a weird poisoned mindset like yourself. Why would you be Wolfgang/Wigfrid/Wendy/Webber if you aren't fighting? Why would you Wickerbottom if you aren't setting up one of her book things? Why would you be Wilson if you aren't mass transmuting? Why would you be Warly if you aren't cooking? Why would you be Wormwood if you aren't farming? Why would you ever be someone who doesn't excel at one particular thing when the portal is so easy to use, like Woodie/Wurt/Wortox/Walter?

Maxwell no longer being able to read Wickerbottom's books would do literally nothing for her. The vast majority of her books' power is stuff that isn't required to actually be Wickerbottom, like mass producing ridiculous quantities of things that'll last ages, or setting up things that stay after she disappears like tentacle traps. Anyone who hates Wickerbottom and refuses to play her and pretends like it's because Maxwell can read her books would not suddenly start playing her.

[Valase]

I don't really care, but if you guys want to nerf him, just make that if he does not have enough sanity, he does not read the book under the "My mind can't take the strain" quote that he uses when you try to have too many minions on him.

[Frashaw27]

I think an interesting way to allow this without entirely stealing all of Wicker's thunder is to add a mechanic where books he reads becomes congealed with shadows, making them unable to be used again, for a period depending on the book like maybe half a day for bees and tentacles while something like silvaculture takes a full day. A wickerbottom can clean this muck off early herself to both promote them working in tandem while also not allowing her to be properly overshined by Maxwell. Another note is that Maxwell would be able to use the Lux Aeterna normally since those two are based off the Codex by his own admission and wouldn't be able to use the Lunar Grimoire at all due to the Codex "not liking it".

 

Another alternative would also just to be weakening the effects, like Maxwell progressively summons less bees per cast and has a lower cap, The lunar book only progresses the moon forward a stage instead of directly to full, you can only grow a max of lix 30ish plants with silvaculture, things to limit the amount of power so that he can still use them without them overshadowing Wickerbottom's direct power.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Taking advantage of the same logic:

1. Should the other characters use Winona's catapults?

And the most important:

2. Should characters have bonuses from Warly recipes, especially the damage multiplier?

The important thing about the answer is that the solutions are the same for all 3 (Winona, Warly and Wickerbottom).

 Not really the best example it's more like saying should Wolfgang be able to use Wanda's alarming clock and all of her other clocks.

I say this because in this case Maxwell is simply all around superior at using her books at all skill levels.

[Volskygge]

maybe it should have an unique gimmick like wurt reading wicker books

[SaltyPepper2231]

It would be better if he could only read it once

[Bumber64]

It's fine. Maxwell pays a higher sanity penalty. (Agree that he shouldn't be able to read at 0.)

Wickerbottom just needs her skill tree to give her an edge on books.

[Quadratordo]

2 hours ago, Godwyn said:

maybe it should have an unique gimmick like wurt reading wicker books

Wurt's interaction with Wicker's books is a prime example of what most survivors' gear cross-interaction should be; it's a tasteful and lore-fitting (keeping in mind that lore reasons must be subservient to sensible design, not the other way around) way for her to use those books without undermining Wickerbottom's own toolkit.

So I'd say that Maxwell should not be able to read Wickerbottom's books and obtain the same effects out of them; alternative effects would be welcome. This design choice seems like a heritage of the old days and the different priorities on OG DS's part; I have to wonder how it would've been tackled by current day Klei.

[Brago-sama]

2 hours ago, Quadratordo said:

Wurt's interaction with Wicker's books is a prime example of what most survivors' gear cross-interaction should be; it's a tasteful and lore-fitting (keeping in mind that lore reasons must be subservient to sensible design, not the other way around) way for her to use those books without undermining Wickerbottom's own toolkit.

So I'd say that Maxwell should not be able to read Wickerbottom's books and obtain the same effects out of them; alternative effects would be welcome. This design choice seems like a heritage of the old days and the different priorities on OG DS's part; I have to wonder how it would've been tackled by current day Klei.

Anyone but wicker, maxwell, and wurt reading sleepytime stories should put themselves to sleep

[DegenerateFurry]

If we're doing away with swap characters being a thing - and it looks like we are, after seeing Winona's skill tree in the upcoming update and how only she will be able to power her stuff now - Maxwell shouldn't be able to use Wickerbottom's books, at least not indefinitely. He's already an exceptionally strong character, so getting to yoink the powers of another strong character is kinda busted, honestly.

At most, I think he should be able to use them, but perhaps only Wickerbottom can interact with the bookcase? So, either Maxwell can't repair them without a Wickerbottom online or he can't take them out without her online.

If not that, just make it so he only gets the sanity-draining effects of using them and maybe summons a nightmare creature - he can still use them to farm fuel, but he's not going to have phenomenal cosmic powers over the lunar cycle, the weather, and everything else like Wicker can.

[zhangsheng]

Lore should not be a constraint on characters.
Imagine, when all privileges can be shared, the meaning of a character's existence is limited only to the skin. I think this is something nobody wants to see. Each character should have their own characteristics and abilities, rather than simply becoming a vassal of other characters.

[chirsg]

We should do trade negotiations. Maxwell is still able to use wickerbottom's books, but in return, woodie can use codex umbra