Does Fuelweaver REALLY need his cheese back?

[Frosty_Mentos]

I mean, I do love some hard cheese, cheddar...

Okay to be serious here. I've got plentiful of houndiuses set up fight the cheese prior, 6 of them total. They do a huge chunk of damage to fuelweaver making the fight generally a breeze. Thuribles basically negating bone attacks, meaning the only thing to deal with is just the unseen hands to disable the shield. After either having enough resources to make weatherpains or killing celestial for sake of getting brightshade staff there's no real threat from fuelweaver. The turrets melt his HP away really fast, I can avoid most of his attacks and take away the healing and shielding and boom - it's just a low HP enemy boss.

I get the part where we want to be lazy, but in a way if it makes me work a little to make the fight more pleasurable to solo and do it faster I think it's mostly fine. I don't think fuelweaver cheese is necessary, especially when you can just get a stack of gunpowder and do a quick result too to get through the fight and go on your merry way to do other things or projects.

What I'm saying is that it's not THAT bad over some time playing, but there are existing solutions already for dealing quick with him, but it takes a tiny bit of work for it if we can get past that.

In the end I think it doesn't touch any other boss but toadstool, and maybe moonstone farming. Luckily we got end table to give us that moon rock decor though to keep on duping rocks.

[grm9]

that's entirely unrelated to why people used cheese, it was to save time/not do the fight since it's boring after you get brightshade staves/skip a fight they don't like or don't know how to deal with, since most people probably think that lazy explorer, nightmare amulet and AoE/multiple people are required for fighting him

[goatt]

that's not really cheese, that's a bug. The bug is that FW uncontrollably goes in one direction ignoring normal pathfinding because lureplant is not part of the pathfinding.

In my opinion, the pathfinding problem can be solved by allowing FW to recognize bone spikes and lureplant as obstacles or structures (which can be destroyed by FW), so that FW can successfully walk back to where it wants to, which is the center of the arena, where he can then despawn or shatter into fossils.

People want to treat this bug as cheese, and insist talking about it as a cheese, so that utilizing this bug doesn't seem cheating. But from game mechanic standpoint, it is cheating. It's not utilizing any hidden mechanics, or secret shortcuts, or special late-game items, or skills. It's exploitating a bug (not game mechanic) that prevent FW from acting normally. (Normally, FW would reach the center of the arena and shatter.)

 

If you really like this bug-like feature of blocking FW, you should install a mod. Mod is to change the game to your desire. Since the indended game mechanic is not to your liking, you should get/create a FW-path-blocker mod, as that's what the old bug is equivalent to.

[Gi-Go]

It never left. 

[Frosty_Mentos]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

that's entirely unrelated to why people used cheese, it was to save time/not do the fight since it's boring after you get brightshade staves/skip a fight they don't like or don't know how to deal with, since most people probably think that lazy explorer, nightmare amulet and AoE/multiple people are required for fighting him

i don't agree in a sense that there's multiple ways to fight it, only thing that mitigates it is just high damage to make the fight not a drag. the cheese may save time but I won't lie it was an old and absurd mechanic to now more modern ways to battle bosses appear. Since they likely are planning boss reworks later, and we got a decent amount of ways to fight these bosses it's less of a hurdle than most of us I feel like have shouted and protested about.

Overtime, I changed my mind, I found ways to deal with it without needing too much effort put in and it works just as well right now as it was just sitting and doing nothing.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, goatt said:

that's not really cheese, that's a bug. The bug is that FW uncontrollably goes in one direction ignoring normal pathfinding because lureplant is not part of the pathfinding.

In my opinion, the pathfinding problem can be solved by allowing FW to recognize bone spikes and lureplant as obstacles or structures (which can be destroyed by FW), so that FW can successfully walk back to where it wants to, which is the center of the arena, where he can then despawn or shatter into fossils.

People want to treat this bug as cheese, and insist talking about it as a cheese, so that utilizing this bug doesn't seem cheating. But from game mechanic standpoint, it is cheating. It's not utilizing any hidden mechanics, or secret shortcuts, or special late-game items, or skills. It's exploitating a bug (not game mechanic) that prevent FW from acting normally. (Normally, FW would reach the center of the arena and shatter.)

 

If you really like this bug-like feature of blocking FW, you should install a mod. Mod is to change the game to your desire. Since the indended game mechanic is not to your liking, you should get/create a FW-path-blocker mod, as that's what the old bug is equivalent to

cheese usually is a bug that allows you to kill a boss quicker/more easily and idk what's wrong with them existing considering most people won't figure out on their own that they exist

24 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

i don't agree in a sense that there's multiple ways to fight it, only thing that mitigates it is just high damage to make the fight not a drag. the cheese may save time but I won't lie it was an old and absurd mechanic to now more modern ways to battle bosses appear. Since they likely are planning boss reworks later, and we got a decent amount of ways to fight these bosses it's less of a hurdle than most of us I feel like have shouted and protested about.

Overtime, I changed my mind, I found ways to deal with it without needing too much effort put in and it works just as well right now as it was just sitting and doing nothing

that's entirely unrelated to what i said, you could at least do something else while afk instead of doing a fight that got simplified to the point of being boring 

25 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Since they likely are planning boss reworks later

hopefully no

[Frosty_Mentos]

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

cheese usually is a bug that allows you to kill a boss quicker/more easily and idk what's wrong with them existing considering most people won't figure out on their own that they exist

That's wrong, considering that people usually research or get told on how to deal with anything in-game. There's very much comprehensive lists or videos of every cheese as to what we know so far. Doesn't feel like you know how new players get into this game and how later on finding out for all fight strategies then comes the expoits.

19 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's entirely unrelated to what i said, you could at least do something else while afk instead of doing a fight that got simplified to the point of being boring

Nothing wrong with making the bosses spicier or more interesting for it then. Or improving on the items we've got already. I get you're lazy and bored of that fight.

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

That's wrong, considering that people usually research or get told on how to deal with anything in-game

31 minutes ago, grm9 said:

most people won't figure out on their own

specifically searching for cheese and finding it is different in comparison to having everyone stumble on it and use it to kill the boss for the 1st time 

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Doesn't feel like you know how new players get into this game and how later on finding out for all fight strategies then comes the expoits

yeah idk why everyone look for guides instead of trying to do stuff on their own unless they just don't know that AoE, teleportation, luring fast things away from slow things, dropping items onto the ground, luring fast things that'll become slow away from something that's stationary for a while after you get back to it etc. exist, it makes sense in case of stuff like spawning FW because idk how'd you figure that out on your own without seeing the update poster from back then unless it's in scrapbook, 1st few videos are also usually cheeseless if you search for something like "dst ancient fuelweaver guide" or "dst ancient fuelweaver fight"

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Nothing wrong with making the bosses spicier or more interesting for it then

they aren't going to do that, judging by how boss difficulty went downhill since ANR

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Or improving on the items we've got already

that'd do the opposite thing

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

I get you're lazy

i'm not, not wanting to do something that you don't need to do and don't like doing is unrelated to laziness so laziness doesn't apply in case of games

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

bored of that fight

i'm not, minimal gear FW is fun, brightstade staff bone helm void robe brightshade sword 4 thuribles FW is boring and i usually don't kill every boss more than once per world nor did i use lureplants cheese, other people did and wanted it back because of that

[Szczuku]

No he doesn't. Especially if people's reasoning is:

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

it was to save time/not do the fight

 

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

No he doesn't. Especially if people's reasoning is:

 

is that wanting people to play the game the same way you do for no reason or elitism? 

[Faintly Macabre]

3 hours ago, goatt said:

that's not really cheese, that's a bug.

His brain works exactly as intended: no player in the arena? Walk towards the gate until you get there. It's no different than any of the other pants-on-head stupid pathing exploits in the game. All pathfinding exploits work on the exact same principle: taking advantage of logic that wasn't thorough enough. It's no more (or less) cheating than exploiting brains that prioritize picking up objects above all else so the mobs bash their head against walls. Or any other exploitation of bad logic.

Y'all need to quit trying to make this look like an objective matter, because it's not. The lines you keep trying to draw in the sand are all completely arbitrary. Just accept it: you just don't like it. It "feels wrong" to you.

I don't know why we're even still talking about this. These arguments have all been made to death since the moment this change dropped in the beta. It's over. Klei made their decision. Just learn the fight or look for other methods and try not to let any silly stuff you find make its way to the fun police's eyes/ears.

[goatt]

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

cheese usually is a bug that allows you to kill a boss quicker/more easily

That's not how people in this forum use the word. I've seen it's used mixed up more often than it was originally meant to be.

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

His brain works exactly as intended: no player in the arena? Walk towards the gate until you get there.

You see, you understand the goal of FW is what you said. But fw failed to recognize how to get there, namely, via pathfinding.

The game code wants FW to get back, but code failed to achieve that due to bug.

Pathfinding is a thing in this game, there is no need to think it's new or tricky.

[Faintly Macabre]

42 minutes ago, goatt said:

You see, you understand the goal of FW is what you said. But fw failed to recognize how to get there, namely, via pathfinding.

The game code wants FW to get back, but code failed to achieve that due to bug.

Pathfinding is a thing in this game, there is no need to think it's new or tricky.

Did you stop reading where the quote ended? The point was that this isn't functionally any different from any other exploit or "cheese" that relies on poor logic. You're the one acting like this is somehow novel.

[HowlVoid]

How is killing FW 6 times to make him easy related to cheese at all. 

6 fights, when people cheese him because they can't beat him.

Math ain't mathing.

[Gashzer]

7 hours ago, grm9 said:

 since most people probably think that lazy explorer, nightmare amulet and AoE/multiple people are required for fighting him

Record yourself doing the fight on console then come back and say that.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Record yourself doing the fight on console then come back and say that

buy me a console

[Yuuko]

Oh boy, this again...

It has a LOT less to do with AFW and a lot more to do with what the lureplant was, and what the game was.

DS/T was a game about creativity.  While you could pretty easily craft a weapon, count hits, and kite your way through fights, a major element in the game was just having lots of tools and game interactions and figuring out how you could use this to tackle the obstacles of the game.  Key word there "wanted."  The game was a sandbox, and that player agency opened up an endless amount of play and variation.

DST is no longer doing this, and it sucks.  Every new fight is focused a lot more on some ultra-specific mundane combat loop and creative solutions are getting squashed.

AFW was one example where the lureplant was used, but the problem is much bigger than that.  The ability to craft farms and other automations feels in jeopardy and tbh that is a significant, overwhelming amount of my desire to play.  Since this change my desire to play has dropped off a ledge.  Why bother exploring the game when any interesting thing you find is at risk of being patched out b/c the Devs are on some "we're Dark Souls now" circle jerk? 

Its really easy to play the troll and laugh at people who have lost fun game elements here, the toxic uprising emboldened by Klei's change has certainly been a blight on the forums.  And for what?  Can we really take such pleasure in another player in another server doing something different than you having their fun in the game stripped away?

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

buy me a console

Point being your view is based off pc version solely. Klei updates DST for all versions equally. 

Broaden your mind 

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Point being your view is based off pc version solely. Klei updates DST for all versions equally

they should make console controls not suck or allow using keyboard and mice on console then

[ChintzyGnat]

8 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Oh boy, this again...

It has a LOT less to do with AFW and a lot more to do with what the lureplant was, and what the game was.

DS/T was a game about creativity.  While you could pretty easily craft a weapon, count hits, and kite your way through fights, a major element in the game was just having lots of tools and game interactions and figuring out how you could use this to tackle the obstacles of the game.  Key word there "wanted."  The game was a sandbox, and whatever you wanted to do could be fun because you could try and do it however you wanted.

DST is no longer doing this, and it sucks.  Every new fight is focused a lot more on some ultra-specific mundane combat loop and creative solutions are getting squashed.

AFW was one example where the lureplant was used, but the problem is much bigger than that.  The ability to craft farms and other automations feels in jeopardy and tbh that is a significant, overwhelming amount of my desire to play.  Since this change my desire to play has dropped off a ledge.  Why bother exploring the game when any interesting thing you find is at risk of being patched out b/c the Devs are on some "we're Dark Souls now" circle jerk? 

Its really easy to play the troll and laugh at people who have lost fun game elements here, the toxic uprising emboldened by Klei's change has certainly been a blight on the forums.  And for what?  Can we really take such pleasure in another player in another server doing something different than you having their fun in the game stripped away?

No point even bringing up people play differently because everyone must conform to one person's mindset

[Cassielu]

28 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

It has a LOT less to do with AFW and a lot more to do with what the lureplant was, and what the game was.

I sympathize with your criticism of the game's current boss battles, but I hard to agree that lureplant is a creative solutions.

Maybe it was back in 2016, but to now day I just think it's the same stupid omission being used over and over again.

Even among the cheeses, the new cheeses created after lureplant's change are more creative and utilize more interesting mechanics than lureplant. and other creative solutions that were abandoned because they were not as efficient as lureplant are being rediscover and used again.

[Faintly Macabre]

58 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

I sympathize with your criticism of the game's current boss battles, but I hard to agree that lureplant is a creative solutions.

Even among the cheeses, the new cheeses created after lureplant's change are more creative and utilize more interesting mechanics than lureplant. and other creative solutions that were abandoned because they were not as efficient as lureplant are being rediscover and used again.

This is kind of missing the point. Is lureplant cheese still creative in 2024? No, though it was pretty creative when someone came up with it like, 8 years ago. Is it creative to look for guides on how to do things and follow the instructions? No, but many people who like playing the game this way learn these methods and then learn from them concepts that they can use elsewhere and/or build upon. Yes, this fix has forced people to develop new tricks, but if Klei makes a habit of patching stuff up, some people are liable to give up staying ahead of them, or be less willing to share what they come up with for other people to learn from and build on.

Personally, I've already worked out a new (to me) method (which is probably more complicated than it needs to be and thus not very good), but while coming up with a new idea that worked was pretty fun, I'm pretty likely to keep it to myself because I don't know if I have what it takes to develop yet another if that method is patched out and my goal is ultimately to end run a fight I find tedious and not fun to do (especially as a controller player). Klei's adjustments for controller play helped some, but it's still a fairly hectic fight and inventory management is still just horrible when playing with a controller.

[Frosty_Mentos]

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

Its really easy to play the troll and laugh at people who have lost fun game elements here, the toxic uprising emboldened by Klei's change has certainly been a blight on the forums.  And for what?  Can we really take such pleasure in another player in another server doing something different than you having their fun in the game stripped away?

You're god damn right about that part. I see specific some people just that act super passive aggressive or want to just be boring trolls to mess with people or me for speaking out about our ideas of how perhaps we'd want the game to be or some specific mechanics enhanced. It's gross how these people here have acted so far and little that the moderators have done so far to do so but to tame the existing flames than anything.

It sucks to have my ideas and brainstorming and solutions proposed by some of these morons because they come here to fight than actually talk and act with some level of dignity as either they are trolls, elitist trolls, those that refuse to want threads of big existing system changes or old content updates, those that just come to complain because "ITS NOT HOW IT USED TO BE YOU RUINED IT KLEIIIIII" from one of the very uncompromising player back then.

It's, like, a sandbox game. Anything could be added and it might be fun to mess around with. I don't want boring game content - I want the game content to actually expand upon and DO something with what we already have because we got a LOT of arsenal and items that are about to what it feels "replaced", we got bosses that feel extremely outdated in some regard or not fitting into what we could call now modern Don't Starve bosses, not raid bosses perhaps but still a really good concept to having satisfying fights; there's a myriad of survival items that are completely underutilized in current game or not even touched for how BAD and I'll repeat BAD they are for not having any functional uses to be expanded upon cause yes, thermalstone, umbrella and tamoshanter still are king along with a krampus sack. I see never that anyone would care for anything else yet these people insist "THEY ARE OPPPPP OMG WHAT NONSENSE YOU WRITE", man, those people are like 5% of players perhaps that think that and still argue while they munch on their honey hams and jerkies like they know better. Cause from all the writing and talking I clearly found nothing good here but yapping and disagreeing till one or few, and thank you for the few that give me actual conversations and thoughts behind the good and the bad, cause others are not here for that. Moronic, is the word.

Even someone else being attacked here for just making a poll as if "you either agree with them or nothing" even tho that's just false way of thinking. Noone can make you think otherwise unless you want to consider or care. Not necessarily have to agree, not like these ideas are gonna be put in by devs immediately or at all. General discussion is generally for everything, not just talk about whatever but suggestions and criticisms or pointers. Similar to suggestions, but suggestions is more like a dessert for tossing there an idea and noone cares about it.

This is a long enough rant, because I needed to let out some steam, and that people should acknowledge we're here to make discussion, not war.

[Notecja]

I am terrible at fighting. I have too slow reaction, too clumsy fingers, and I never know when to dogde (even moose/goose I fail kiting... and my favourite boss Klaus). I have fight AFW many times with friends, I know how fight look like, I know how they perform and how my performance look like. I play as different characters - WX, Woodie, Wendy, even Wurt and Winona. I cannot imagine managing fighting AFW solo and maintain every it's aspect properly without a "little help".

Skillissuesis exist and sometimes cannot be cured with thousands of gaming hours. Just saying, I am neutral on topic, but maybe some people cannot imagine that some people will never be able to do this fight on their own. We aren't same, our reflexes aren't same, even if we enjoy same game.

[Mike23Ua]

7 hours ago, grm9 said:

is that wanting people to play the game the same way you do for no reason or elitism? 

From my point of view Klei adds items into the game constantly that encourage players to discover new strategies & new ways to tackle old content.

All of this goes Immediately out the window when players use well known cheese/exploits to do things in the most effective, and arguably least creative.. way of auto-mating the fight.

To Further drive that point home, Klei actually DOES add items into the game exclusively for the sole purpose of Self-Automation, such as for example the DreadStone Pillars..

Yet again as I said, all of it goes immediately out the window the moment easier well known cheese/exploits are used.

Houndious Shootius (a self automating tool) recently got several changes too, so it’s clear to me that Klei wants players to use the tools & toys at their disposal, but only in the ways they intend for them to be used.

And as much as people like to argue against it, I sincerely do not think Lureplants or Spider Eggs were EVER supposed to be better at being a wall than the various types of craftable wall types we can create.