Regarding the recent discussion environment of the forum

[Kwaik]

34 minutes ago, somethin said:

This forum is so weird to me. I have never seen any game forum as obsessed in 'design philosophy' and 'uncompromising' or whatever other gaming buzzword as much as this one. Like, it's almost unhealthy even. Heck, even other Klei game forum is not as bad as this one. It's baffling really.

The extremism of this view is a problem (ie the elitist attitude and generally being pretty rude) 

But it's a reasonable point that this games had something like a decade of power creep and QoL (which generally also adds to power creep) so balance has gotten thrown out of whack. 

Do I think uncompromising blah blah blah is what this game needs? Not necessarily. But if the devs announced the plan for a NG+ increased difficulty mode (ie terraria style) where at a certain point you unlocked a whole more challenging more difficult world. That would probably be the most exciting thing imaginable 

For a game called Don't Starve, within like an hour of playing the game food basically becomes a non issue forever. And increased challenge would add a ton of replayability as well as force players to find  new ways to play the game.

The devs have had major patches revamping characters with skill trees, giving players who want to play different characters what they want. This coming patch is a massive boon for mega basers and builders. I think it would be really cool if we eventually saw new challenges making them game more difficult as well 

[Fatkitty]

It has begun! Rage thread #2!!!

[HowlVoid]

It's really scary...

People are letting the mask slip and almost coming out and saying

"This is how I like the game and it's how I want it"

With complete disregard for anyone else.

Inflated egos will be the downfall of DST.

Edited March 7 by HowlVoid

[Mike23Ua]

5 hours ago, Zima Blue said:

agreed. it's almost like people don't care about what's fun but rather about the game keeping an image they idealized. 

The thing about that is people have varying opinions about what’s “Fun” I’m playing a Mobile game right now “Guidus”

Spoiler

 

 

it’s a small IPhone RogueLite that much like Hamlets temples, played from small room corridor to small room corridor.

I literally just died because I entered a room and immediately slide uncontrollably across icey tiles right off into a pit of acid.

unfair? Yes.. hilarious? Also yes..

But “Klei” of all game companies are pretty much front runners in this Genre, a Genre that was only ever going to appeal to a very niche group of gamers who enjoyed that sort of thing.

(RotWood & Invisible Inc are RogueLites by Klei.)

I can’t say I blame Klei for trying to make the Dont starve franchise appeal to a broader gaming audience by making it more accessible to casual players, but at the exact same time they should offer up more difficult modes that do not completely abandon their franchises roots, for the long-time fans of what the franchise was before all the casualization

And I’m not even asking for anything NEW in terms of content, I’m not asking for your base to unfairly explode.. I’m simply asking for the same types of challenges and obstacles players that can be found in DSA’s Adventures Mode & SW\Ham DLCs.

Also I’ll have you ALL know that just because DST is “Multiplayer” doesn’t mean that the entire design philosophy of the game should’ve changed to this Multi-Player group party raid boss crap we got going now.

I can name a list of several actual GOOD Co-Op RogueLites/Likes that still retain the same type of traps and hazards that were once present in Solo DS Adventures Mode & it’s DLCs.

I almost feel like Klei felt like if the player died in Multiplayer DS by stepping on a floor spike trap that they felt it would be too “frustrating” for multiplayer when players had to revive their fallen teammates.

But- as I stated at the top of this post: there are people in this world who find that level of punishment to be “Fun”

I can even give you a brand new example of a ground hazard that could be present in DST thanks to players now “slipping” across Ice at the RockJaw boss fight, at penguin ponds, over frozen lakes in winter etc…

Lets build a narrow maze (kinda like the swamp tentacles maze from solo DS adventures mode) build a corridor maze like this down inside the caves where the surface is made of this slippery ice, but below that is a lava pit leading to instant character death should you slip off the edge.

See? I just turned DST into a more uncompromising RogueLike, all without needing to rely on a 50,000 hp boss. 

Edited March 7 by Mike23Ua
Added cute video of me dying lol <3

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

4 hours ago, somethin said:

This forum is so weird to me. I have never seen any game forum as obsessed in 'design philosophy' and 'uncompromising' or whatever other gaming buzzword as much as this one. Like, it's almost unhealthy even. Heck, even other Klei game forum is not as bad as this one. It's baffling really.

I agree that this forum specifically is very strange, but I think there is good reason for that. Not only is Don't Starve (and by extension DST) Klei's longest running game, but it has by far received the most drastic changes and updates. It makes sense that players talk so much about design philosophy, because the game has been around for so long that it realistically cannot have the same design philosophy as it once did. 

[cropo]

5 hours ago, Zima Blue said:

agreed. it's almost like people don't care about what's fun but rather about the game keeping an image they idealized. 

I think they deserve to feel this way on some level. While I am happy with the current updates(on the condition that it leads to something good down the line, we're all rolling the dice here with these updates), a lot of people got into this game near the start where the original makers had various interviews on what they wanted Don't Starve to be, when it was in early access and still developing the creators were VERY active on the forum taking every bit of feedback very seriously for balance and design.

 

Constant scarcity, and the idea that EVERYTHING has a cost was a big deal when making Don't Starve. Klei had already made games where their protagonist could rip a shark into pieces with his bare hands, and they wanted a game where the player was much weaker than everything around them and would never truly feel ''comfortable'' with their surroundings.

The strong commitment to that idea is what brought Don't Starve a level above other survival games at the time, it was glorious. Most survival games focused on Minecraft-esque building, or obnoxious kill-on-sight pvp with the actual "survival" elements being a huge afterthought.

There was no other game like it, no matter how many survival type games they make I can't think of any other game that's on Don't Starve's level back then.

 

My personal perspective on the matter has changed over the years, the game was never really that difficult and the players found ways to completely dominate the game in ways Klei never wanted. What players think is ''options and player freedom'' are things Klei used to hate and want to stamp out. During early access, they kind of had an unspoken war with the playerbase where they would ''Hostile DM" all new content specifically to invalidate strategies and tactics they had been using up to that point. This ''design philosophy'' of limiting player choice to force them to play the way they intended carried over into bosses like Toadstool and BeeQueen, and you can still see elements of it to this day. 

They've tried making an uncompromising survival game, and the playerbase who begs for this kind of game manages to find ways to dominate and trivialize it to the point that the only way Klei could genuinely make difficult survival gameplay is if they make it downright unfair and remove player skill and freedom as a means of countering it(kind of like a certain falling boulder and unavoidable monkey curses),

Design philosophy is an important topic of discussion in games where there is serious stakes, another example of a community that takes design philosophy very seriously is the Souls-bloodborne-elden ring community, the painstaking effort and love that is put into their worlds only comes through a strong commitment to it, and they're very scared of anything that could lead to it being compromised which is why there was a huge controversy during Dark Souls 2's prerelease when there was a poorly translated interview where the developers said they wanted to make the game easier for everyone. 


Again, not saying I completely share this opinion. I don't think a lot of their ideals have been compromised, and the ones that have been were not worth preserving...but even though I disagree with them on almost any metric, I can sympathize with where they are coming from.

[Szczuku]

8 hours ago, somethin said:

Heck, even other Klei game forum is not as bad as this one. It's baffling really.

To be fair, Oxygen not Included is the only other Klei game that isn't dead or unreleased and the oni devs don't try to pull off stunts that dst devs do (as far as I know anyways)

Oni still very much is a niche-occupying game

[_zwb]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I almost feel like Klei felt like if the player died in Multiplayer DS by stepping on a floor spike trap that they felt it would be too “frustrating” for multiplayer when players had to revive their fallen teammates.

Dying in DST frustrating because you have to wait for couple minutes to revive, in ds you just reset world and start playing again.

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

unfair? Yes.. hilarious? Also yes..

Dying to something you have no control over might be funny for the first few times, after 273th death you wouldn't find that funny.

Edited March 7 by _zwb

[Mike23Ua]

7 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Dying in DST frustrating because you have to wait for couple minutes to revive, in ds you just reset world and start playing again.

Dying to something you have no control over might be funny for the first few times, after 273th death you wouldn't find that funny.

Only on default settings do you have to wait, or you can toggle on Instant world deletion upon death, same as it was in Solo DS! The only problem with that is that mobs and bosses do not also scale to accommodate for that. Dying to spike pits, automatic machine gun arrows coming out the wall, rolling boulders, Swinging axe pendulums is no different from discovering Dragonfly or Klaus has an “Enraged” mode for the first time.

The game franchise is no stranger to funny, unfair & timely demise.

[_zwb]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The game franchise is no stranger to funny, unfair & timely demise.

And I'm bored of it already

[mykenception]

It's perfectly clear that Mike has different views and expectations on what he wants DST to be.

Sadly DST is no longer DS+Rog with multiplayer and has changed already

DST isn't roguelike much like DS and it's DLCs, no matter how much you twist and turn it, it's just not it anymore. you're grasping for strands full of cope now. But I'm guessing since you lasted with 14k posts in the forum, the only thing unshakable in this community is your persistence.

(you're waiting for DS2 anyway)

9 hours ago, Fatkitty said:

It has begun! Rage thread #2!!!

Now showing: Rage thread #2: Electric Boogaloo

Rage thread #3 coming soon

[Kevinnator]

I've only dabled in the forums somewhat recently and anytime I try to be positive about the new content, there's always someone who has to argue that it's actually **** with no good qualities. I've never seen people so passionately hate stuff that they can literally choose to turn off or ignore.
I've even had someone tell my opinion is less important than their opinion because I'm relatively new to DST, yeah sure buddy, don't let your head grow too big now.

I don't mind having a nice discussion about the pros and cons of stuff but the moment someone starts acting like an elitist, I just don't bother replying 'cus I know I'll get sassy and it won't be a respectful discussion anymore. Ain't worth the effort.

[Zima Blue]

7 hours ago, cropo said:

, the game was never really that difficult and the players found ways to completely dominate the game in ways Klei never wanted.

Agree with that in some way. For beginners the game is hard and that kinda creates an image of what's the game is supposed to look; hard, unforgiving etc. The problem is some players get so attached to this idea that when a new update comes out and it doesn't reflect what they felt when they first started playing the game, they feel like the game is not what it used to be. But as you said, the game was never difficult. It just take some time to get better at it. 

 

7 hours ago, cropo said:

a lot of people got into this game near the start where the original makers had various interviews on what they wanted Don't Starve to be, when it was in early access and still developing the creators were VERY active on the forum taking every bit of feedback very seriously for balance and design.

Yeah, I've been playing DST since november 2015 and although I'm not playing it since DS ROG beta, I do relate to this feeling of needing our feedbacks to be seen and heard and that's fine, my opinion is that some people have to manage their expectations of what the game is and what the game should be. I'm not targeting my opinion on anyone specifically, specially because I don't remember most of the people I see commenting here on the forum, I'm directing my opinion to posts that the main goal is to generally talk about how's the game becoming worse and not the posts created to criticize a specific mechanic and ideas to improve a specific mechanic.

[The Starver]

21 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Such as a molting hot underground lava cave biome

This is one of the best features that got cut. It still makes me sad.

[loonreaper]

I personally find it really odd... I thought Starcraft 2 forums were toxic . For all the content Klei releases for the price of the game and for the amount of sheer playtime you get it is mind-bogglingly negative. Even the "constructive criticism" threads are always phrased in an alarmist sort of way. 

[Mike23Ua]

14 hours ago, loonreaper said:

I personally find it really odd... I thought Starcraft 2 forums were toxic . For all the content Klei releases for the price of the game and for the amount of sheer playtime you get it is mind-bogglingly negative. Even the "constructive criticism" threads are always phrased in an alarmist sort of way. 

I think a lot of it has to do with Klei adding almost completely pointless features just because fans Asked for it as sort of Immersion flavor or whatever.. like okay for example: The new Beta makes it so players now slide across Pengull nesting grounds, and even more useless than that… the player can slide over frozen over ponds in Winter.

Yeah those teeny.. tiny.. ponds that don’t really have any gameplay purpose for WHY the player could slide over them.

Meanwhile.. im playing Guidus on my Smartphone & It makes me sad that these kind of features aren’t in DST.

Like okay look, just look at this-

Spoiler

 

 

In that video you see me slip across the ice uncontrollably to the other side, preventing me from just getting to the next room, forcing me to slide into enemies I needed to clear out or traps that may be waiting on the other side of the ice.

With DST it’s really just so players can pretend they’re ice skating.

Sure- I guess it adds realism and a small touch of life to the game world, But as the video above shows.. it could be used for so much more.

Players can Ruins Rush DST Because it isn’t built with traps and mazes.

In the above game there are cursed statues that randomly spawn little bad guys until the statue can be reached and destroyed.. & there are enemy mobs who can cause ground hazards to erupt beneath the players feet, until the player makes it to that mob and kills it.

I love DS/DST with all my heart, but this one simple mobile game has all the traps and hazards DST SHOULD have, but doesn’t.

And I think the only times I’ve felt like I ever needed to be careful where I stepped in DST (outside of a boss fight..) was when trying to venture through the Ancient Archives where getting too close to the little light beacon things made the light seek out and animate to life the centipede robots in the area.

If I can make one desperate plea to the devs at Klei, in your free time please just download this mobile app (it’s free!) and play it a few times, then look at your own game and ask yourselves how can we incorporate stuff like that into our own game?

I know this game isn’t the best example to use, but it’s a Free mobile app anyone should have easy access to and it’s tiny rooms filled with traps have plenty of cute & clever ideas.

(I hate the chickens in the sewers who send spikes up from the ground to damage you while your trying to navigate the small rooms and kill the enemies without getting damaged by floor & wall traps, focus those chickens first or your going to have a really really bad time..)

I hope that my posts here aren’t stepping too far out of line, I’m merely wanting to share a simplistic little pixel game that has cute art, map hazards, and captures the best parts of what makes a RogueLite/like great. 
 

Please don’t ban me Mr JoeW, I sincerely do not mean for any of my posts to come off as if I’m constantly complaining.. 

[Falkenpelz]

Welp, here we go. I absolutely agree, the forums are so full of complaints these days. While criticism is fine, I wish there was some balance in terms of vibes. Please everyone, keep the "uncompromising"-discussions to the respective threads. And now, instead of complaining about the complaints, I'm gonna make some memes 

[Swiyss]

The OP is right. We have to give more positive feedback.

Edited March 9 by Swiyss
Negative feedback is not great.