Character Synergy poll

[Swiyss]

If we went as far as to block any further discussion slighty off-topic then almost 90% of topics here in the forums are out of topic.

If you (the author) don't want to participate in it I think that is fine, but to make me not say what I think and why it is not an unfair interaction it is to censor me in my book. But correct me if I'm wrong.

35 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

As you mean, playing other characters has become a burden instead? Why do you still have to play such a role?

Honestly, it hasn't become a "burden" per say, but more of a situation where I will never see myself playing a specific survivor because I know their perks and skills are very irrelevant to my gameplay (fundamentally and style-wise).

I won't sacrifice wx78 movespeed + 300 hp/night vision for ANY survivor in this game UNLESS I can get something similar/better.

That's why I want them to add combat abilities to wx78, so I can play my boy without having to sacrifice much.

Sure I can contantly use magi, or use moggles in the caves, but having these things as automatic is way better.

Also I won't play Maxwell because he doesn't have a skillset yet, and unless it is convincing I won't switch either. He will probably have 2 shadows sides, and currently there are 0 lunar enemies early game that are as relevant as nightmare creatures, so the extra 10% damage on them is already a reason for me to not pick shadow in most of my skillset plans.

In my vision, I think that a feature like willow's blue flame on day 1 is unbalanced because of combat. Combat only. Combat specific. Any skill tree that makes surviving, gathering, building, fighting (taking in consideration the game's progress (doing less dps than a dark sword is NOT an argument since her skill is AoE)) easier is a W. Sure they added that, but changing the sprites would make me never touch on this subject again in this forum. It felt uninspired and like a punch in the face of old willow players.

As I said before, I won't play Warly, Winona or Wickerbottom ever again in my life unless it is to swap them back to wendy, maxwell, wormwood, wx and woodie later. If the skill trees fix that and make then more fun and interesting on their own, then I would.

I changed my entire mindset about the game because I saw Klei making the game more Fun and less Uncompromising. For that I agree and will probably stay like this for a while.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, zhangsheng said:

What you mean is that we should delete the character Wickerbottom and transfer our abilities to Maxwell. Isn't that more convenient.

Lores should serve for gameplay, not for gameplay as a lore service.

I only know that Maxwell is already strong enough and should not take away the abilities that originally belonged solely to Wickerbottom. As for the lore, I don't know or care. Klei has given you the ability to switch people and experience more characters.

But you expect to concentrate all your abilities on one person, so why do we have to play other characters.

Maxwell does not take away Wickerbottom's abilities. I really don't know why you guys care about this so much. If you don't want to gather all the stuff to repair the Celestial Portal, then repair the Celestial Portal, then make an idol, then gather hundreds of reeds and other various things to make Wickerbottom's crafts, then make another idol, then switch to Maxwell, you don't have to. I don't, because that's boring. I don't even play Maxwell in the first place because his base kit is already boring even without Wickerbottom's stuff, let alone do that huuuuge amount of effort to be able to get all her books going on Maxwell.

Nobody is forcing you to use the portal, and it's not even like it's making some sort of imbalance. Maxwell is already ridiculous with or without her books, they're not exactly pushing him over some line. If anything is a problem here it's the Celestial Portal or Maxwell's base kit. Him being able to use her books is really unimportant. 

Edited February 24 by Cheggf

[chirsg]

12 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Maxwell does not take away Wickerbottom's abilities. I really don't know why you guys care about this so much.

I think wickerbottom should be more than a mere stepping stone to maxwell. Same can be said about almost any character. No character deserves to be a pedestal which another can stand on. 

It's too bad that when you've crafted every book and bookcase you would want, there is no longer ever a reason to play wickerbottom. 

 

 

[Dr. Safety]

I said Yes to the first and No to the second, but I want to clarify that it's only No because of character swapping (which as I'm reading the responses, was intentionally worded like that). IMO you need both characters present for it to be synergy and not just leeching off of a characters upsides. One could argue that even if both Wickerbottom and Maxwell are present, it's still leeching but I disagree. There is at least the upside that Wicker doesn't have to lose sanity to get the benefits of the books. While it is a minor upside, it is still a mutual benefit for both overall.

Is it stupid of me to view the character synergy and upside leeching as completely different even though they are virtually the same action? Probably. I'm stubborn though and hate that the portal can invalidate playing as certain characters just because you can get the best part about them while no on is actually playing them. I find it respectable when people actually commit to playing these characters, even though they would be better off switching and having the upsides of two characters

Edited February 24 by Dr. Safety

[Chaghatai]

Maxwell being able to read Wicker's books isn't really synergy - synergy should benefit both or create a situation where the sum of the parts is greater than the whole, not just to concentrate benefits onto one "super player" 

Max being able to read Wicker's books just makes Wicker into an unlock for Maxwell 

When it feels like one player character is merely a follower for another, that's not really synergy - it's just concentration of abilities

The poll is useful because gauging whether it even "feels" like synergy enough to call it that is a useful point beyond strict definitions

No character should feel subordinate to another character - that's bad design

If he can read her books at all, it should be inconvenient enough that one would rather play Wicker if one wants to read the books as often as a "typical" Wicker in a "normal" playthrough

There needs to be a reason to keep playing Wicker to read and use the books as the "active player" compared to switching to Maxwell - so that there is a real trade off between better access to Wicker's books and Maxwell's abilities, rather than "lol both" and just play Max after calling in Wicker as a subcontractor

The "effort" of Max using the portal doesn't justify or change the superior/subordinate relationship between the player characters - it just reinforces her as a Max unlock gated by the portal 

Edited February 24 by Chaghatai
Finishing thoughts after <5 minutes

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Chaghatai said:

Maxwell being able to read Wicker's books isn't really synergy - synergy should benefit both or create a situation where the sum of the parts is greater than the whole, not just to concentrate benefits onto one "super player" 

Max being able to read Wicker's books just makes Wicker into an unlock for Maxwell 

When it feels like one player character is merely a follower for another, that's not really synergy - it's just concentration of abilities

The poll is useful because gauging whether it even "feels" like synergy enough to call it that is a useful point beyond strict definitions

No character should feel subordinate to another character - that's bad design

If he can read her books at all, it should be inconvenient enough that one would rather play Wicker if one wants to read the books as often as a "typical" Wicker in a "normal" playthrough

There needs to be a reason to keep playing Wicker to read and use the books as the "active player" compared to switching to Maxwell - so that there is a real trade off between better access to Wicker's books and Maxwell's abilities, rather than "lol both" and just play Max after calling in Wicker as a subcontractor

The "effort" of Max using the portal doesn't justify or change the superior/subordinate relationship between the player characters - it just reinforces her as a Max unlock gated by the portal 

Why is it okay for someone to abuse the Celestial Portal to get any character's power whenever they want with no real drawbacks and no downside or commitment, but as soon as they're literally using the power while on someone else it's a problem? Why is it okay for someone to switch to Wolfgang for a few minutes so that they kill a boss faster, but when they switch to Winona for a few minutes to kill a boss faster it's a problem? Why is it okay for someone to switch to Wickerbottom to use her books (making traps, massing resources, etc) then switch off, but when someone switches to Wickerbottom to make her books for Maxwell it's suddenly a problem? I really do not understand your position here, it genuinely just seems to be that you don't like how character items still exist even if the character who made them doesn't, regardless of what impact that has on the game.

[Yuuko]

11 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Why is it okay for someone to abuse the Celestial Portal to get any character's power whenever they want with no real drawbacks and no downside or commitment, but as soon as they're literally using the power while on someone else it's a problem? Why is it okay for someone to switch to Wolfgang for a few minutes so that they kill a boss faster, but when they switch to Winona for a few minutes to kill a boss faster it's a problem? Why is it okay for someone to switch to Wickerbottom to use her books (making traps, massing resources, etc) then switch off, but when someone switches to Wickerbottom to make her books for Maxwell it's suddenly a problem? I really do not understand your position here, it genuinely just seems to be that you don't like how character items still exist even if the character who made them doesn't, regardless of what impact that has on the game.

This thread isn't about what is fair or not, it is about whether people perceive these situations as "synergy" or not.

They gave their reasons why they feel certain interactions are, and are not synergy.  Done.

It is a separate issue what is fair or unfair, that is not the point of this thread.  We're talking about what we perceive as character synergy.

Edited February 24 by Yuuko

[grm9]

31 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Why is it okay for someone to switch to Wolfgang for a few minutes so that they kill a boss faster, but when they switch to Winona for a few minutes to kill a boss faster it's a problem?

people usually don't like this because there's no reason to keep playing as winona after that, not because it's too good, and even if you keep playing as her after that, it'll be boring because she has less impactful perks than wilson

[_zwb]

I would define character synergy as, when two or more characters play together, their abilities produce a greater effect.

In Maxwell& Wickerbottom's case, it's not a synergy because you aren't actually combining the abilities of two characters. You're not playing with another character, you are merely using the celestial portal as a crafting station to get Wicker's abilities.

[Cheggf]

23 minutes ago, grm9 said:

people usually don't like this because there's no reason to keep playing as winona after that, not because it's too good, and even if you keep playing as her after that, it'll be boring because she has less impactful perks than wilson

If other characters couldn't use her catapults people wouldn't suddenly start playing Winona, they'd just stop making catapults. It sounds like the real complaint has nothing to do with other people being able to use her catapults, and everything about her just being a boring character with nothing going on. 

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

If other characters couldn't use her catapults people wouldn't suddenly start playing Winona, they'd just stop making catapults. It sounds like the real complaint has nothing to do with other people being able to use her catapults, and everything about her just being a boring character with nothing going on

it's usually about warly, who is more interesting to play as in comparison to winona but there's no reason to do that except for fun after cooking and bundling all of his useful dishes, with winona being mentioned as a similar thing except there's no reason at all to play as her

[Cheggf]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it's usually about warly, who is more interesting to play as in comparison to winona but there's no reason to do that except for fun after cooking and bundling all of his useful dishes, with winona being mentioned as a similar thing except there's no reason at all to play as her

No reason other than fun (which as we all know is the least important part of playing videogames) to play as Warly except when he's doing his character ability? You mean like everyone? There's no reason to be Wolfgang/Wigfrid/Webber/Wendy when you aren't fighting, no reason to be Wickerbottom when you aren't doing something with her books, no reason to be Warly when you aren't cooking, no reason to be Winona when you aren't building things, etc. Either the Celestial Portal is the issue, or you guys' mindset is the issue, but the characters themselves are not the issue. There is no difference between swapping to Wolfgang to fight a boss before swapping off and swapping to Warly to make food before swapping off.

[djturner]

Why disguise an argument (i.e. OP clearly trying to make an argument) as a poll? I don't understand why that's a thing.

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

No reason other than fun (which as we all know is the least important part of playing videogames) to play as Warly except when he's doing his character ability? You mean like everyone? There's no reason to be Wolfgang/Wigfrid/Webber/Wendy when you aren't fighting, no reason to be Wickerbottom when you aren't doing something with her books, no reason to be Warly when you aren't cooking, no reason to be Winona when you aren't building things, etc. Either the Celestial Portal is the issue, or you guys' mindset is the issue, but the characters themselves are not the issue. There is no difference between swapping to Wolfgang to fight a boss before swapping off and swapping to Warly to make food before swapping off.

Anywho, the "problem," if one exists at all, is character swapping. And I couldn't put it better than this post here so I won't try. People need to reframe their mind on this issue or they'll be perpetually upset.

Worth considering though: My wife and I used to play Wicker/Max all the time early on. Turns out when you rely heavily on managing sanity using tents, reading books as Wicker is difficult and can't be done as often as the Wicker player would want to. To that end, Maxwell, who has a far easier time managing sanity (and typically has sanity to spare), was a really good complement to her sanity-demanding books. No, it's not a synergy that I expect a lot of top tier players would get value out of (these days, she's much better at managing sanity on Wicker so I can play whoever), but it was a synergy that carried a lot our runs with those two characters early on in our DST careers.

But oh look, nobody is actually talking about the game in motion being played cooperatively between a Max and a Wicker, everybody is just assuming there's one player character swapping.

[Ohan]

On 2/23/2024 at 11:13 PM, Guille6785 said:

stuff like wicker charging old WX was sort of close but also not really because it only benefited the wx player

Wdym, as wicker u got a supercharged teammate that could go sweep the ruins like its nothing even in winter iirc and bring back loot or do any number of other fetching tasks faster than a wicker could. 

The end is nigh was and is a completely dead ability without WX. Its only productive use to a wicker was and is to charge WX. 

On 2/23/2024 at 11:13 PM, Guille6785 said:

IMO there are no real character synergies in DST

Whut..

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, djturner said:

Why disguise an argument (i.e. OP clearly trying to make an argument) as a poll? I don't understand why that's a thing.

 

It is not an argument in disguise.  The thread is being hijacked by people who are talking about what is fair or not.  The poll, and my topic has nothing to do with what is fair, or what should be in the game or what someone might consider a problem with the game.  All I am asking is whether, in the forumer's opinions, if either of these situations counts as "character synergy" in their mind.

Things can exist in game whether they are "character synergy" or not, and things can be fair or not regardless of whether or not they are "character synergy."  What is fair, and what should be in the game are completely irrelevant to my poll and question.

All talk about what is fair or not can be re-directed here, where it would be on-topic:

 

Edited February 25 by Yuuko

[Notecja]

Wicker would have synergy with Maxwell if they both could read each other books, yet giving different effects, so there is no redundant character. Technically in current situation Maxwell is a parasite on Wicker books.

[grm9]

8 hours ago, Cheggf said:

There is no difference between swapping to Wolfgang to fight a boss before swapping off and swapping to Warly to make food before swapping off

you'll probably end up cooking much less often than fighting things and it's more of an issue with people wanting everything to have a purpose even if purpose of things that currently exist is questionable

8 hours ago, Cheggf said:

you guys' mindset

i was explaining why others think that, i'm fine with some characters not having a purpose because it's a pointless bother to constantly ask the devs to rework a specific character especially if you aren't playing as them and i don't use celestial portal for anything other than swapping to warly for potatoes for astroggles anyway

Edited February 25 by grm9

[GimplyGoose]

Polls should try to be impartial and this poll has two loaded questions. I don't think you can get much value out of a poll constructed like this one. I think the reason people have gone "off-topic" in the replies (talking about fairness) is because they want to avoid the fallacy in your poll.

[Cheggf]

7 hours ago, djturner said:

Worth considering though: My wife and I used to play Wicker/Max all the time early on. Turns out when you rely heavily on managing sanity using tents, reading books as Wicker is difficult and can't be done as often as the Wicker player would want to. To that end, Maxwell, who has a far easier time managing sanity (and typically has sanity to spare), was a really good complement to her sanity-demanding books. No, it's not a synergy that I expect a lot of top tier players would get value out of (these days, she's much better at managing sanity on Wicker so I can play whoever), but it was a synergy that carried a lot our runs with those two characters early on in our DST careers.

Which is how it almost always is. Most of my playtime is on public servers, and the Celestial Portal almost never even gets repaired. Even when it does, people always just use it to swap characters. I don't remember a single time when someone did what people here love to complain about where people are swapping using the portal over and over again and abusing it to get multiple characters' advantages. The amount of people who do that is very, very, very, very small, the vast majority of players who are going to be reading Wickerbottom's books as Maxwell are going to be doing it because Wickerbottom made some for him. Then, as you said, he can help Wickerbottom with her reading without her needing to use her much more valuable sanity. It might be the closest thing to a character synergy this game has.

7 hours ago, Ohan said:

The end is nigh was and is a completely dead ability without WX. Its only productive use to a wicker was and is to charge WX. 

It can make a super duper long light source, useful on a boat. 

6 hours ago, Notecja said:

Wicker would have synergy with Maxwell if they both could read each other books, yet giving different effects, so there is no redundant character. Technically in current situation Maxwell is a parasite on Wicker books.

How is Maxwell being able to give Wickerbottom the benefits of her book while she doesn't have to use any of her valuable sanity for it being a "parasite"? If anything Wickerbottom is the parasite, she gets all of the rewards while Maxwell gets all of the penalties.

Is Warly a character who helps no one, and everyone else is just parasites?

4 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

Polls should try to be impartial and this poll has two loaded questions. I don't think you can get much value out of a poll constructed like this one. I think the reason people have gone "off-topic" in the replies (talking about fairness) is because they want to avoid the fallacy in your poll.

It's also a very shallow topic that's unnecessarily restrictive and has already run its course. Imagine a thread about meaty stew's 12 healing, and you aren't allowed to talk about its hunger, sanity, spoilage, crafting recipe, or usefulness on different characters. Only the 12 healing. That's what this thread is like. Due to the extremely blatant phrasing of the poll the conversation is already over before it began. The answer to the question is obvious, even before anyone left a comment. 

Edited February 25 by Cheggf

[Frosty_Mentos]

I do think Maxwell and Wicker having book affinity counts as synergy as they both are able to cast, but it's an odd place for Wicker because Maxwell gains greater benefit of that especially on moon island or with a bone helm. Issue comes then when Klei decides to make a skill tree for Wicker then they'll have to buff her via that in some regard to be even more efficient or have different effects to increase the yield to results to her casts. Which, honestly, I think her books are very much busted in that sense. She was always top tier character for being able to manipulate the world in food wise as a more passive player but that being handed over to Maxwell - who's resourceful by combat and general resources making him literally the king of the world by all powers he can combine.

I think it's fine he can use books, but the question now is how much do we want to make Wicker be on par to rival Maxwell or be just even more efficient than she already is? At best with her abilities she's like Winona - a swap character, but worse, cause Winona at least has double crafting speed and can rebuild her automation structures whenever she exists and be fine to return to her. Wicker on the other hand has no swap value besides just produce books and leave.

People call Wanda broken when the old people can bend space and time at their will already. Wanda is okay for a while till you get bored of playing her. Wicker - you just get bored of playing her cause she's all the books and just leaves. Wanda has to use her clocks at least to be useful, only odd thing that she's illiterate. Maybe for the best...

[Yuuko]

6 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

Polls should try to be impartial and this poll has two loaded questions. I don't think you can get much value out of a poll constructed like this one. I think the reason people have gone "off-topic" in the replies (talking about fairness) is because they want to avoid the fallacy in your poll.

Loaded would imply that the questions were designed to force a specific response or to persuade the voter with the question to a certain answer regardless of their actual thoughts and feelings on the matter.  I posted 2 situations which contrast on a very specific point, and I don't think anyone voting is unclear on what that point is or feels pressured to vote other than how they feel.

There is no fallacy in my poll - it is asking people's opinions of 2 real life (in game) situations.  There is no right or wrong answer.  The results show what "most people would agree with."

The reason people have gone off topic is because some believe defining something as "not character synergy" is a judgement of the mechanic.  I have not used any terms in the topic, poll options, OP - or my replies here - that have given any such judgement.  They have no reason to tell me about what is fair or not, that isn't what I'm talking about.

Edited February 25 by Yuuko

[Popian]

8 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

Polls should try to be impartial and this poll has two loaded questions. I don't think you can get much value out of a poll constructed like this one.

It's easy to imagine that this started from a disagreement with a friend and wondering what other people think. Things may look a certain way simply because they're meant to be that way.

 

"Synergy" does not apply to both cases because they do not immediately describe "working together" and "mutual benefit" (unless Wicker wants to get insane in case 1).

"Character synergy" on the other hand depends on how strict you want its definition to apply to the original words. There are "mutual benefit" and "working together" aspects that can make both cases technically true. I'd prefer keeping the original meaning to avoid this kind of confusion in the first place.

[grm9]

16 minutes ago, Popian said:

It's easy to imagine that this started from a disagreement with a friend and wondering what other people think

no, the post was made because of a reply on the forums, with someone saying that both examples were synergies

[Swiyss]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:13 AM, Swiyss said:

Not even talking about how her blue fire looks more like endothermic fire from reign of giants instead of the ACTUAL white blue-ISH characteristics of gestalts, lunar energy and materials.

Honestly.. this was kinda pointless since the archive chandeliers have the same blue flames when using moon gems to activate it.

 

On 2/24/2024 at 2:13 AM, Swiyss said:

Wigfrid dash is only obtainable when almost getting into late-game

That was wrong also, it only repairs at that stage, but the dash is available earlier. My train of thought was like this because I unlocked her insight while playing, not cheating.