The Maxwell Debate

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, maxst said:

Maybe they could change that when you summon the puppets, instead of having your meter consumed from top to bottom without necessarily consuming sanity, it's from bottom to top and you can't summon if you don't have sanity. So if you wanted to use it as before, you would have to take sanity foods much more into account. But for new and medium players it would force you a bit more to deal with the weakness of having 75 hp (because you can't spam) and you should be much more tactical with your summons if you don't want to go crazy. the bone helmet cancels it but pfff it's the bone helmet

If it were bottom to top, you would be immune to being insane i don't know what you mean

[Dr.Webber]

9 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Is lore a good reason why a character should be op, better than the rest?

Yea

[Dextops]

9 hours ago, SonicDen220 said:

Maxwell deserves to be powerful. He's the puppet master, the shadow magician, the former antagonist, the former king of this world. His rework absolutely did him justice.

Yeah this argument makes no sense at all

[Scrimbles]

Maxwell is the biggest example of an over bloated character.

Klei took his refresh and the vagueness of shadow magic, and just let him do whatever they wanted. I have nothing against the specifics of his spells, just the fact that they are a little unbalanced, and it lets Maxwell do too much.

Personally, I find it so bland to just give a character every possible tool that you can come up with, Maxwell has way too much now and it feels so unnecessary, it makes him LESS fun for me.

I would rather have a character that is more focused on being really good at a few specific things, or having a few in depth mechanics, than being an overbloated jack of all trades.

[Jakepeng99]

9 minutes ago, Dr.Webber said:

Yea

Oh ok then

[2097]

6 hours ago, skile said:

why can he still read all of Wicker's books?

I’d like to think it’s lore oriented perhaps they’re also written in the same/similar language as the codex umbra?

[Jakepeng99]

1 minute ago, 2097 said:

I’d like to think it’s lore oriented perhaps they’re also written in the same/similar language as the codex umbra?

Maxwell is the reason Wickerbottom can read books. Wickerbottom probably could use the umbra if she didn't have a phobia of it.

[Mr_Vol]

A downside that makes sense is that he is weak and frail old man, they could have given him the Wes treatment and had him take longer working and doing  less damage during fights making him really on the codex to function. 

[ShadowDuelist]

6 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

The wickerbottom book thing is a bit unfair to wickerbottom, but a better solution would be giving wickerbottom more perks that only she can use.

Absolutely agree. Maxwell is now a direct upgrade of wicker, if you started as wicker once you got a library and most books, or at least the 2-3 you use more often, the most reasonable thing to do is it switch to Maxwell.
 

You really are not missing out anything if you do that, which should NOT be the case. If you play with others maxwell has even better book handling options as other people can put the used books back to the Library to regenerate them through the hat and the magician cabin.

Giving Wickerbottom more unique interactions with magic and specially books, that only she has, would make her some justice.

Also I always say I love Maxwell and play a lot as him, but to be fair his personal quest starts at a much higher power level than most of the others. To put him in a  Wanda or Wickerbottom, or Wurt or Wendy like quest, would mean that he starts with his codex and no extra fuel, and his codex can only summon workers , and he has to do stuff to unlock the other powers. EG: when you stand next to a shadow manipulator you get an upgrade for your codex that lets you unlock the duelists, when you stand next to a broken pseudoscience you unlock the shadow pillars, etc.
Of course this would mean just a small delay for experienced players, (and a nightmare for inexperienced players) but at least it would be about the same gameplay loop as most of the other characters: Start, and grind towards your personal development while doing other stuff.

[Dr.Webber]

2 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Oh ok then

What’s that wink for I’m not saying pacifically Maxwell I haven’t studied his lore enough or seen his rework in a while but if lore dictates that something is so then something Is so

[Jakepeng99]

They should give Maxwell this new downside related to being old. He has a chance to crack his back, he will be really slow, take damage over time, and needs another player or a shadow servent/pigman to fix it for him. This is well desined as it encourages you to use his upsides. 

 

Carrying a statue will crush and kill him.

1 minute ago, Dr.Webber said:

What’s that wink for I’m not saying pacifically Maxwell I haven’t studied his lore enough or seen his rework in a while but if lore dictates that something is so then something Is so

I did it because i was messing around

[Dr.Webber]

4 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

They should give Maxwell this new downside related to being old. He has a chance to crack his back, he will be really slow, take damage over time, and needs another player or a shadow servent/pigman to fix it for him. This is well desined as it encourages you to use his upsides. 

 

Carrying a statue will crush and kill him.

I did it because i was messing around

Ok

[Cheggf]

6 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

I'd say this isn't very accurate. Most tier lists I see that people make agree on giving maxwell an above average score in terms of combat power.

And if a tier list made by some random dude who didn't actually do any research and just threw the characters around in random spots says it, it must be true.

5 hours ago, Valase said:

The only nerf that I think that Max could get, would be not starting with his codex fully charged, that would be enough to put the character behind a few notches.

Make him spawn shadows instantly if reading the Codex Umbra brings him to 0 sanity like Wickerbottom. Remove Shadow Prison and Shadow Sneak, possibly adding them back in a skill tree. Make his abilities more expensive so you don't get the most powerful things in the game at some of the cheapest costs in the game. Give him some real downside(s) instead of "If you forget that you can craft armor and you go touching a weird wet blue plant, it will oneshot you". Make his duelists require thought & effort to use, and/or lower their damage. Lower the efficacy of his servants/prison/snare. Give him 1-all of these and he's good. 

[Mr Giggio]

11 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

On the other hand Maxwell is fun to play, so does it all matter?

It doesnt

11 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Powercreep

bs in a sandbox ffs

11 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

But Maxwell will end up getting a skill tree too

it can have soooooooo many ways to give him a polishment without actually straight up buffing the character

Examples?

 1 - A dismiss all pupeets button. It gets kinda annoying having to despawn shadows manually cuz they keep dodging u when a enemy is around and its DST so it happens a lot. A ban/purge button to dismiss all shadows by once in the middle of the book wheel would be lovely. 

2 - Planar damage is a thing now. If all the bonus damage maxwell gets from whats hes wearing would planar darkness it would also be fun. Not buffing a single number, just make it planar. Like when Max have the fuelweaver gear the 60 damage is reduced to 37 agains planar mobs and the 90 damage lunge attack is only 50. So make the bonus planar and the base 20 damage normal. done.

 

Now some considerations

a lotta folks think Maxwell does 6 times more damage than a regular character.

A player does 2 hits per secon while a shadow does 1 hit each 1,8 seconds

When it performs lunge attack it gets there for at least 3 seconds so it actually looses damage if bursting isnt the case. You have to be  A   L O T  stuck in casting animations and constantly resummon things and spells. its different and strong but definitly not broken or something. I still could put a all bosses run earlier with wolfgang than with maxwell but I rather play maxwell cuz hes my type of man no pun intended

 

Theres my 50 cents to the discussion

[Mysterious box]

24 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

They should give Maxwell this new downside related to being old. He has a chance to crack his back, he will be really slow, take damage over time, and needs another player or a shadow servent/pigman to fix it for him. This is well desined as it encourages you to use his upsides.

Actually another interesting idea you just gave me is if Maxwell had Wanda's old age penalties at all times and friendly mobs fear him since they seem to be afraid of shadow magic. Rather than being hostile against him like say Wortox they would just try to actively avoid him and refuse to become his follower(this would be mostly pointless as he has better followers anyway just more of a flavor thing)

However as a added advantage to help with this new playstyle his servants would be able to carry heavy objects so long as there's 4 or more of them summoned and Maxwell will be able to cast his spells much faster.

Feel like it'd give a more realistic feeling of him being fragile and dependant on the Codex Umbra.

[Dextops]

4 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

It doesnt

I think it does when it comes at the cost of other characters.

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

Now some considerations

a lotta folks think Maxwell does 6 times more damage than a regular character.

A player does 2 hits per secon while a shadow does 1 hit each 1,8 seconds

When it performs lunge attack it gets there for at least 3 seconds so it actually looses damage if bursting isnt the case. You have to be  A   L O T  stuck in casting animations and constantly resummon things and spells. its different and strong but definitly not broken or something. I still could put a all bosses run earlier with wolfgang than with maxwell but I rather play maxwell cuz hes my type of man no pun intended

You can bind your target completely while those casting animations are going off. Those duelists are fighting alongside him meaning your damage will be up there with the highest dealers. You can also go kill all bosses earlier than most other characters with Maxwell you start with a massive amount of spell casts and those spells make those fights easier even if you don't power up your duelists fully.

9 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

bs in a sandbox ffs

If it didn't matter the topic of balance wouldn't keep coming up heck the refreshes and skill trees wouldn't even be necessary.

Heck people wouldn't be so afraid of breaking Walter or Wolfgang being "op"

[Mr Giggio]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

You can also go kill all bosses earlier than most other characters with Maxwell

its only for bee queen and guess what

all these guys can do the same
Wolfie and Wendy in less time even

[Picklesaurus]

4 hours ago, Dextops said:

I think it does when it comes at the cost of other characters.

I agree Max reading Wicker books takes something unique from her and I like having reasons to keep playing as a character but I have two genuine questions: what makes Wickerbottom so different from Warly and Winona in this aspect? Why are there way less complains about  Warly and Winona having the most advantageous part of their perks being used not only by Max but by any other characters for possibly greater effect or results? 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

its only for bee queen and guess what

all these guys can do the same
Wolfie and Wendy in less time even

Interesting so are you saying Maxwell's slower at killing most bosses than say.... Walter, Wilson, Wicker, Wurt, Webber, Wes, Wx, Winona, Wormwood, Willow, Wortox, and Warly a potentially afew of the lower end combat characters early game? Because if he is that is indeed most of the cast and if he isn't then I'll have to ask how? The difference being Maxwell is supposed to be a allrounder while Wolfgang is more or less just damage focused.

[Dextops]

4 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

I agree Max reading Wicker books takes something unique from her and I like having reasons to keep playing as a character but I have two genuine questions: what makes Wickerbottom so different from Warly and Winona is this aspect? Why are there way less complains about  Warly and Winona having the most advantageous part of their perks being used not only by Max but by any other characters for possibly greater effect or results? 

What? Literally everyone complains about how warly and Winona lack any uniqueness for themselves. 

[Mr Giggio]

13 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

you saying Maxwell's slower than

z

zz

Im saying he is faster to do beequeen indeed cuz he can skip parts but for the rest is almost the same time of preparation

pretty clean pretty simple so please, make an effort

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

is supposed to be a allrounder while Wolfgang is more or less just damage focused

this gatekeeping man geez x__x

 

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Mr Giggio said:

z

zz

Im saying he is faster to do beequeen indeed cuz he can skip parts but for the rest is almost the same time of preparation

pretty clean pretty simple so please, make an effort

Ok but that wasn't ever my point the advantages he gets don't end at bee queen.

[Cheggf]

19 minutes ago, Dextops said:

What? Literally everyone complains about how warly and Winona lack any uniqueness for themselves. 

No. It's literally like 10 people on the Klei forums who are addicted to minmaxing and incapable of actually experiencing joy or fun. A lot of people pick Warly in-game, and I even see Winona occasionally. 

24 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

I agree Max reading Wicker books takes something unique from her and I like having reasons to keep playing as a character but I have two genuine questions: what makes Wickerbottom so different from Warly and Winona is this aspect? Why are there way less complains about  Warly and Winona having the most advantageous part of their perks being used not only by Max but by any other characters for possibly greater effect or results? 

Warly is really fun to play, supporting other players is his whole deal, and doing that on him is super expensive + can apply to all characters. Maxwell is already the best even without his ability to uniquely steal a different character's entire kit for cheap.

Wickerbottom's spells are also actually, like, spells. You use them in an interesting and fun way. They're abilities. Warly's dishes are just buffs. 

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

No. It's literally like 10 people on the Klei forums who are addicted to minmaxing and incapable of actually experiencing joy or fun. A lot of people pick Warly in-game, and I even see Winona occasionally. 

The Klei forums aren’t the only people in the dst community. It’s a widely repeated sentiment that I agree with. More so with Winona than warly cause in my opinion warly just sucks, but literally all Winona is, is an over glorified catapult because that’s all she really has.