The Maxwell Debate

[Dextops]

4 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

you think "ohh then just wear armor all the time" then that in itself is a downside already limiting Maxwell's options in gearing.

Except why aren’t you wearing armor all the time????? What’s the downside in at least wearing a football helmet??

[Jakepeng99]

8 hours ago, Cheggf said:

So needing to press right click on an item in your inventory every 5 or 10 minutes is jank, unlike needing to constantly walk over to boats and swap your fish around. And needing to farm literally one single time is expensive, unlike spending who knows how long sailing during the opposite season to prepare for the other season you aren't in, catching enough fish to then place multiple copies in all the boats you've littered around the map (which themselves need to be made, along with their tin fishing bins), and then walking around the map placing fish in those boats. OK.

The fish last 32 minutes (48minutes in Winter), that is way more than enough to do whatever you do before quickly swapping it at a boat. If it is not enough, bundle an extra fish and you have over an hour of seasonal immunity. You only need 3-4 fish and you wont need anymore ever unless you end up dying and having that fish die too, though it is not that hard to get a good amount of extra spares. For Warly, you need to constantly refresh your supply, and the season immunity time they give is 2 minutes each, and often it is lower because the lower the spoilage, the lower the duration. 

[kroban]

People debating about Maxwell when theres a character with 200 health and sanity, a x2.25 damage for doing barely nothing, while also being good at labour because he can 1shot things. If theres a character that deserves having added a downside because of how "dumb op" he is, Its wolfgang. An actual downside, not some "easily scared so x0.10 to darkness uwu"

[lenship2]

3 hours ago, Dextops said:

Except why aren’t you wearing armor all the time????? What’s the downside in at least wearing a football helmet??

losing out on literally every other head equip item in the game: stuff like a tam o shanter, an eyebrella, a beefalo hat. etc.

[Mr Giggio]

9 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Dunno why people think Maxwell is so OP

I fail to see that when Wolfgang exists. And if he can, Maxwell can too. Good gather potential, exceptional fighting potential, still better than Maxwell overall, but now we have options. Also, no downsides. People ignore that Maxwell has 75 health and say to wear armor and pretend we dont have to deal with the stupid sanity threshold that triggers terrorbeaks all the time even when u eat perfect the cactus after a prison and harrassed u for a loooong minute while u have to deal with a boss at the same time. Its such a convenient argue. :T

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, kroban said:

People debating about Maxwell when theres a character with 200 health and sanity, a x2.25 damage for doing barely nothing, while also being good at labour because he can 1shot things. If theres a character that deserves having added a downside because of how "dumb op" he is, Its wolfgang. An actual downside, not some "easily scared so x0.10 to darkness uwu"

I played Wolfgang, his downsides are more than you say. It is actually a ×0.30 drain (It is 0.10 when near a player or follower though, so you can do that forever using a pet)

It is ×2 damage, not ×2.25

You need to maintain his mightiness which costs hunger, and less hunger the less mightiness.

He doesn't really have much downsides i am not saying they are big but they are still bigger than 75hp. I think they should make dumbells drain your hunger.

[Dextops]

1 hour ago, lenship2 said:

losing out on literally every other head equip item in the game: stuff like a tam o shanter, an eyebrella, a beefalo hat. etc.

Tam o shanter and beefalo hat are things you don’t need, can live without. You can have an eyebrellla as long as you’re attentive, things aren’t attacking you 24/7. The downside is utterly negligible and I don’t get people trying to make it out to be a big one when it really isn’t. you’re not going to bosses without armor, hounds give a warning, and everything else can just be avoided.

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

Tam o shanter and beefalo hat are things you don’t need, can live without. You can have an eyebrellla as long as you’re attentive, things aren’t attacking you 24/7. The downside is utterly negligible and I don’t get people trying to make it out to be a big one when it really isn’t. you’re not going to bosses without armor, hounds give a warning, and everything else can just be avoided.

Maxwell has a built in tamo shanter so he need it even less. Normally i would use a beefalo with him and deal tons of dps, the beefalo speed makes using the book way less risky which lets you do so much more powerful things. E.g outspeeding a group of mobs to be able to cage or scare them.

[Cheggf]

13 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

I'm talking about a large amount of players who shared their tier list, meaning there's a decent amount of agreement in the playerbase. It's all about the experience, doesnt matter f there's one self proclaimed expert who disagrees if that's not the sentiment of the majority. Also, some of these were tierlists by DST streamers who have been plying the game since day 1.

My mistake for going against the scripture of YouTubers. They really know a lot, along with their viewers that stop playing when it becomes winter.

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

The fish last 32 minutes (48minutes in Winter), that is way more than enough to do whatever you do before quickly swapping it at a boat. If it is not enough, bundle an extra fish and you have over an hour of seasonal immunity. You only need 3-4 fish and you wont need anymore ever unless you end up dying and having that fish die too, though it is not that hard to get a good amount of extra spares.

Killing bee queen and using bundling wrap just to juggle fish around sure is a lot cheaper and less janky than farming one single time so that you can press right click on something periodically. 

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

For Warly, you need to constantly refresh your supply, and the season immunity time they give is 2 minutes each, and often it is lower because the lower the spoilage, the lower the duration. 

You tell me that I need to play Wurt but you clearly haven't even played Warly once. The immunity is at least 6 minutes each, and unaffected by spoilage. You're just making a bunch of stuff up. Even in a worst case scenario where the food is your only defense, you have no insulation at all, and you're never ever in a situation where you don't need the food like near dwarf stars (winter) or in the caves/night (summer), you can have more than enough food for an entire season with just 1 rigamajig's worth of farming.

[kroban]

21 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I played Wolfgang, his downsides are more than you say. It is actually a ×0.30 drain (It is 0.10 when near a player or follower though, so you can do that forever using a pet)

It is ×2 damage, not ×2.25

You need to maintain his mightiness which costs hunger, and less hunger the less mightiness.

He doesn't really have much downsides i am not saying they are big but they are still bigger than 75hp. I think they should make dumbells drain your hunger.

His mightiness add 2x damage, but with skill tree's damage buff he's basically a 2.25, probably even more with the 10% additional damage against the opposite aligment and ****.

His sanity and "hungry when mighty" drain are a joke. When it comes to sanity he can almost 2-shot nightmares with a dark sword. And unless you are playing Walter, sanity is one of the easiest things to deal with by just getting a Tam O Shanter or a crown.

And when it comes to hunger well, healing during a boss fight or a "farm session" basically also covers your hunger issue and theres also bundles so you can stack lots of food at all times.

Also considering he has huge pools for all these 3 things WHILE ALSO being a huge damage dealer? I would say Wolfgang is the one that should have Walter's negative trait or Maxwell's health, THAT would be an actual disadvantage for how much damage he can do.

[Jakepeng99]

18 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Killing bee queen and using bundling wrap j

Normally it's better to bundle your crops anyway, bundling wrap isn't a big issue since it is something most people want, though you rarely need it unless you are going to the ruins or caves for awhile in Winter. It is actually 5 minutes so i was actually wrong, though i am sure does get lowered by spoilage, Jazzy who plays alot of Warly also mentioned it and i don't think that is something he would make up.

 

18 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You tell me that I need to play Wurt but you clearly haven't even played Warly once.

I have played Warly a decent amount though i didn't use the seasonal food that much since i needed to prepare alot every time for something for one season vs as Wurt where i fished once for a lifetime supply. Though you saying that shows you probably didn't play Wurt. I have a friend who mains Warly too. I used to think it was not worth using the fish and it was really bad before trying it when someone told me. I remember trying it and it was kind of like discovering running is faster than walking. I probably should try the seasonal dishes more often when i play Warly again in a skill tree, though you never realistically need a bundling wrap for the fish, it is unlikely to be away and never return to base for more than half an hour, and if you plan to bundling an extra fish isn't that hard. Sometimes i like to use an adorable lavae with a thermal stone instead when in the caves though i did not use that strategy for awhile.

[Mysterious box]

On 9/4/2023 at 4:39 AM, BB Marioni said:

If you think "ohh then just wear armor all the time" then that in itself is a downside already limiting Maxwell's options in gearing.

I mean I get mistakes happen but like where is this jumpscare damage coming from that he wouldn't have time to put armor on?

On 9/4/2023 at 3:46 AM, Gashzer said:

Maxwells shadow top hat is way too janky compared to using woby/chester, you cant even craft by directly using items in the hat without the hat dropping. Meaning you need to manually remove the items then craft... pure f**kin' jank! And ofc it doesnt extend across into the caves with each shard having a different inventory.

On the flipside the tophat won't run from you in combat. Removing your access to it.

On 9/4/2023 at 3:46 AM, Gashzer said:

Dunno why people think Maxwell is so OP. The lower hp and needing to juggle casting of his spells which takes abit of time to learn how to do it well make him pretty balanced.

I don't get this argument maybe I'm missing something but I haven't seen anyone struggling with the cast time since they slightly shortened the cast time interruption period. The hp situation doesn't really seem to matter too much unless your walking into a combat zone without armor which I don't understand who is doing that unless it's someone who is overconfident or a complete noob as even a casual player should know to use armor in combat. I get dst has a large casual playerbase but I feel like people give them too little credit sometimes.

[Cheggf]

6 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean I get mistakes happen but like where is this jumpscare damage coming from that he wouldn't have time to put armor on?

One time I got killed by a depths worm who was obscured behind one of those big pillars, but that's only one little area in one little place so you can just wear a helmet for a few seconds there if you're worried about super surprises.

6 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I don't get this argument maybe I'm missing something but I haven't seen anyone struggling with the cast time since they slightly shortened the cast time interruption period.

They buffed the animation speed I think 3 times, and allowed you to chain casts back to back. I think "slightly" is an understatement.

[Vultureneck]

People who post on the forums are by far the minority of those who play dst. Just cause 75 HP isn't a big deal to a lot of people around here doesn't mean people playing Maxwell don't get bushwhacked and repeatedly die because they have less room for mistakes. He definitely as a downside, personally I don't think characters should be balanced around people with hundreds and hundreds of hours in this game already. 

I'm also of the opinion that if anyone should be Overtuned/OP it should be Maxwell, someone will always be OP by virtue of the extensive cast so you should have characters that are thematically powerful feel powerful. He also feels very different from each other character which I think is cool. 

 

23 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I get dst has a large casual playerbase but I feel like people give them too little credit sometimes.

Bruh I think you're giving them too much credit. I don't know how often you play with people who have less than 500 hours of playtime but they die all the freaking time. 

[Mysterious box]

18 minutes ago, Vultureneck said:

People who post on the forums are by far the minority of those who play dst.

This is true but it also applies to every platform you could ask on so I don't think this is worth mentioning. Most people don't care to comment on these matters they would just pick another character. If they had a issue with them.

 

20 minutes ago, Vultureneck said:

Just cause 75 HP isn't a big deal to a lot of people around here doesn't mean people playing Maxwell don't get bushwhacked and repeatedly die because they have less room for mistakes. He definitely as a downside, personally I don't think characters should be balanced around people with hundreds and hundreds of hours in this game already. 

People also starve due to Wigfrid and Wurt's downside as well as many others that are often called not that bad heck there were many who couldn't handle Wolfgang's old hunger drain. I'll agree Maxwell's downside does give you less room for mistakes than the rest of the cast but it still gives you a fair bit of breathing room it isn't like people trying to use Wanda's old age perk. People with hundreds of hours shouldn't be the standard for balance but people with less than 5 hours also shouldn't be the standard.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Vultureneck said:

Bruh I think you're giving them too much credit. I don't know how often you play with people who have less than 500 hours of playtime but they die all the freaking time. 

I've met many people with less than 30 who don't die all the time not everyone is bad at video games. This isn't to say people don't die eventually we all do but dst sure is heck isn't a game that takes 500 hours to get past the basics of wearing armor and using weapons for the average player.

32 minutes ago, Vultureneck said:

I'm also of the opinion that if anyone should be Overtuned/OP it should be Maxwell, someone will always be OP by virtue of the extensive cast so you should have characters that are thematically powerful feel powerful.

It's this kind of design that results in infinite refreshes. I mean think about it was Willow's refresh bad? I mean before Klei went off the deep end with the refreshes would you say it was bad? There's no good reason for Maxwell to be overtuned it's just bad game design to make a character who makes their alternatives feel completely inferior in a multiplayer game.

 

35 minutes ago, Vultureneck said:

He also feels very different from each other character which I think is cool. 

I mean he doesn't feel that much different from the rest of the follower cast.

[Jakepeng99]

On 9/5/2023 at 4:49 PM, kroban said:

"hungry when mighty"

I found out he has 0 extra hunger drain, and he loses less hunger when Wimpy so Wolfgang uses less food than most characters which is weird, you are right he has no downsides that do anything.

[Cheggf]

14 hours ago, Vultureneck said:

People who post on the forums are by far the minority of those who play dst. Just cause 75 HP isn't a big deal to a lot of people around here doesn't mean people playing Maxwell don't get bushwhacked and repeatedly die because they have less room for mistakes. He definitely as a downside, personally I don't think characters should be balanced around people with hundreds and hundreds of hours in this game already. 

It doesn't take hundreds of hours to learn how to make armor. Just because literal children die as Maxwell doesn't mean his downside is this enormous thing that takes several lifetimes to master.

14 hours ago, Vultureneck said:

someone will always be OP by virtue of the extensive cast

If Maxwell were reverted to his pre-rework form nobody would be particularly OP. OP is not synonymous with "best".

14 hours ago, Vultureneck said:

Bruh I think you're giving them too much credit. I don't know how often you play with people who have less than 500 hours of playtime but they die all the freaking time. 

0.5 is less than 500, so technically true I guess.

[Dragonboooorn]

On 9/3/2023 at 9:15 PM, Dextops said:

I think it does when it comes at the cost of other characters.

uhhh I dont think I get what you trying to say.

Maybe its OTHER characters fault for them being boring/weak? Klei made Maxwell super fun and unique, I mostly played him from time to time before his rework simply for his persona, now hes one of my two mains.

Why ruin HIM when you can buff/refresh other characters to make them just as powerful and unique as Maxwell? Everyone will be happy in the end. Its not like DST is a competetive game, nor balanced and hard at this point.

 

On 9/4/2023 at 7:16 PM, kroban said:

People debating about Maxwell when theres a character with 200 health and sanity, a x2.25 damage for doing barely nothing, while also being good at labour because he can 1shot things. If theres a character that deserves having added a downside because of how "dumb op" he is, Its wolfgang. An actual downside, not some "easily scared so x0.10 to darkness uwu"

Days since someone havent complained about Wolfgang being OP pls nerf: 0