The Maxwell Debate

[Jakepeng99]

Jack of all trades, master of all. Keeper of two kits, and does it quick. 

 

On one hand, he invalidates multiple characters since he can do what they can do better. Wurt, Wickerbottom(Straight up has Wickerbottoms entire kit), and even can invalidate most combat characters due to how powerful, cheap and efficent his minions are while also having access to all his utility and spells. He has zero weaknesses, one minor downside to try balance it all. Other players also lack any options to collect resources such as grass and stuff faster, the scyth should auto stack resourcs it collects. His cage can even disable a few bosses, so Maxwell is the best utility and support character, and is one of the best combat characters.

On the other hand Maxwell is fun to play, so does it all matter? He offers a unique playstyle of a spell caster in many places at once, i enjoy finding out how shadow sneak is actually really good, especially when combined with shadow wall. He has some fun niches on the ocean since his minions can walk on water.

 

Maxwell is fun, but potentially giving him a good downside which plays with his upsides could also not only make him a little more fun, but also make his dominance a little less dumb. Powercreep becomes an issue if a character steals the niches from so many characters without their or any of their own drawbacks, though another often seen as better solution is giving those characters more niches with skill trees, like Woodie who is now known for his Moose form now. But Maxwell will end up getting a skill tree too with direct and considerable buffs to probably the best character in the game who was known for doing everything better. But...

Lets just wait till the skill trees for the affected characters are out and see how it goes, Wurt needed a touch up anyway and needs a new niche that is not late game boss sweeping. The only thing that really should be looked at in the present is if Maxwell should be able to read books so effectively without the added downside doing much.

[SonicDen220]

Maxwell deserves to be powerful. He's the puppet master, the shadow magician, the former antagonist, the former king of this world. His rework absolutely did him justice.

[Jakepeng99]

23 minutes ago, SonicDen220 said:

Maxwell deserves to be powerful. He's the puppet master, the shadow magician, the former antagonist, the former king of this world. His rework absolutely did him justice.

Is lore a good reason why a character should be op, better than the rest?

[abrocator]

24 minutes ago, SonicDen220 said:

Maxwell deserves to be powerful. He's the puppet master, the shadow magician, the former antagonist, the former king of this world. His rework absolutely did him justice.

This is fine as long as the downside is noticeable enough. His frailty (75HP) was his thing in the original DS and it's the same now. Is that enough? I don't know. I mostly play him in the late-game.

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, abrocator said:

This is fine as long as the downside is noticeable enough. His frailty (75HP) was his thing in the original DS and it's the same now. Is that enough? I don't know. I mostly play him in the late-game.

Normally healing and armour often invalidates the health pool in most situations. It matters against large burst damage which is kinda situational

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

On the other hand Maxwell is fun to play, so does it all matter?

I'm gonna beat the crap out of this hand. This hand is going in a cast.

[Jakepeng99]

52 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I'm gonna beat the crap out of this hand. This hand is going in a cast.

I was doing a constructive argument looking at both sides. Maxwell's mechanics are generally fun even though he has no downsides.

 

There is so many people that say " Who cares if X has no downside, obviously downsides means less fun! "

[Cheggf]

9 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I was doing a constructive argument looking at both sides. Maxwell's mechanics are generally fun even though he has no downsides.

 

There is so many people that say " Who cares if X has no downside, obviously downsides means less fun! "

I'm just joking around 

2 hours ago, SonicDen220 said:

Maxwell deserves to be powerful. He's the puppet master, the shadow magician, the former antagonist, the former king of this world. His rework absolutely did him justice.

He was a frail little man trapped to a throne who turned into bones as soon as Wilson touched the "turn Maxwell into bones" doohicky. The throne & the shadows were doing everything; Maxwell was the puppet, not the master.

[Uedo]

2 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Is lore a good reason why a character should be op, better than the rest?

Obvs <3

[flamboyant wolf]

3 hours ago, SonicDen220 said:

Maxwell deserves to be powerful. He's the puppet master, the shadow magician, the former antagonist, the former king of this world. His rework absolutely did him justice.

ok, but he's not the librarian, why can he still read all of Wicker's books? It was a cool little synergy before the refreshes started, but now it's just Maxwell being able to use Wicker's entire kit for no good reason. 

[gamehun20]

21 minutes ago, skile said:

why can he still read all of Wicker's books?

Book liker

[BB Marioni]

I'd say this isn't very accurate. Most tier lists I see that people make agree on giving maxwell an above average score in terms of combat power. He does excel at gathering resources, but he also isn't without any downsides. the 75 hp itself already makes him very mistake sensitive. One surprise shot while not wearing armor can mean instant death. His spells and summons also lock him in quite a long animation which makes him very vulnerable to attacks if not timed right. His spells also cost sanity and nightmare fuel which are not always easy for everyone to manage. It might be for you, but not for some people. Some people like me who do not farm bosses would not have a bone helm to protect us from nightmare creatures when insane. 

The wickerbottom book thing is a bit unfair to wickerbottom, but a better solution would be giving wickerbottom more perks that only she can use. Plus, even though a lot of people are saying that this makes Maxwell OP, I very rarely encounter Maxwells taking advantage of it most likely due to the effort it requires to swap and setup everything. 

[Kwaik]

Maxwell is definitely OP but he's not godmode 

 

His prison ability is what breaks him 

 

But if you take it away then he's suddenly not particularly good at harder content 

 

I think Maxwell is S tier, but not stupid broken S tier 

[Valase]

The only nerf that I think that Max could get, would be not starting with his codex fully charged, that would be enough to put the character behind a few notches.

And about the Wick book reading, you need a lot o time to set up(unless you get a reed trap setpiece, and even then still takes quite some time) and for every location that you would want to use a book more than twice, you would also need another bookstation. So you either get to use the portal for that, which is your game, so I see no problem, or you have a friend with you, which means that you both are having fun.

(Also you can't really read that many books with Maxwell without a bone helm).

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, BB Marioni said:

One surprise shot while not wearing armor can mean instant death

Wear armour

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, SonicDen220 said:

Maxwell deserves to be powerful. He's the puppet master, the shadow magician, the former antagonist, the former king of this world. His rework absolutely did him justice.

By this logic Wolfgang should be able to rip trees out the ground with this bare hands. Walter should be able to shoot his slingshot at the speed of a normal Weapon. Wortox should be able to instant kill enemies by touching them. Shadow creatures should run from Bernie and Willow should be able to explode when her sanity is low. Wurt should be bale to deal decent damage just by punching and so on. Lore is not a good reason for being a balance paradox like Maxwell.

I know it won't happen but Kiel should have made shadow sneak, shadow prison, and the magician's chest part of the skill tree while leaving Maxwell starting with the servants, the duelists, and the magician's top hat. Regardless Wickerbottom's entire skill set should be removed from him there's no good reason for him to be two characters at once. Besides if we're defending Maxwell reading the books then I don't see why Wanda can't read the codex umbra she's clearly interested in it and it's not like she wouldn't use something related to shadow magic if it benefited her.

 

[Copyafriend]

13 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Wear armour

Dude its fine to open a discussion while having a preformed opinion that you wanted to discuss, but it seems like you wanted this to just be a “maxwell op” thread, and you dont like people disagreeing. People can have their opinions.

i personally feel like maxwell is a little overtuned, however, he is a character that requires a comparatively high skill level. “Wear armor” doesn’t help much for a noob with a football helmet not watching his health well and dying to deerclops in only 5 hits. Or to the noobie without armor that got one shot by a depth worm. Or to the moderately experienced player who got swarmed by clockworks in the ruins and died when any other character could have gotten away with half their health remaining. 
 

Maxwell DOES have a downside, and its pretty significant for newer players. Just because we’re all experienced and can work around it fairly easily doesn’t make it nonexistent.

i think maxwells “being overtuned” as i put it, has nothing to do with wickerbottom, and everything to do with everything he can do being so cheap and effective. I dont think he should have gotten a gathering skill, the shadows are already the best choppers and miners, they shouldn’t harvest for you as well.

 

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

i think maxwells “being overtuned” as i put it, has nothing to do with wickerbottom, and everything to do with everything he can do being so cheap and effective. I dont think he should have gotten a gathering skill, the shadows are already the best choppers and miners, they shouldn’t harvest for you as well.

Honestly I somewhat agree here probably a better alternative would be to just making using the codex umbra much more expensive to compensate how powerful it is but I am a bit conflicted on removing his gathering skill despite it being too powerful I kinda like it. The issue is probably just that his skill set too cheap and his downside is mostly glossed over with basic knowledge of armor.

[Dextops]

13 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

personally feel like maxwell is a little overtuned, however, he is a character that requires a comparatively high skill level. “Wear armor” doesn’t help much for a noob with a football helmet not watching his health well and dying to deerclops in only 5 hits. Or to the noobie without armor that got one shot by a depth worm. Or to the moderately experienced player who got swarmed by clockworks in the ruins and died when any other character could have gotten away with half their health remaining. 

I think the wear armor argument is completely valid. You have a characters who’s only downside is 75 health, and wearing armor almost completely negates that. I don’t see why it matters if noobs are dying because after a noob doesn’t have a problem with that now what? It’s such an easy downside to get over because health barely matters in this game when armor gives you way more health than necessary.

13 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

personally feel like maxwell is a little overtuned, however, he is a character that requires a comparatively high skill level. “Wear armor” doesn’t help much for a noob with a football helmet not watching his health well and dying to deerclops in only 5 hits. Or to the noobie without armor that got one shot by a depth worm. Or to the moderately experienced player who got swarmed by clockworks in the ruins and died when any other character could have gotten away with half their health remaining. 

I think the wear armor argument is completely valid. You have a characters who’s only downside is 75 health, and wearing armor almost completely negates that. I don’t see why it matters if noobs are dying because after a noob doesn’t have a problem with that now what? It’s such an easy downside to get over because health barely matters in this game when armor gives you way more health than necessary.

[Mysterious box]

Okay I got a mockup that makes his skill set more in line with other characters.

His shadow prison goes back to not breaking early from attacks but consumes purple gems instead.

His shadow sneak now consumes blue gems.

Finally nightmare fuel will charge the codex for 10% at a time also each cast from it will reduce durability by 10% 

I'd argue noone would have a issue with him being too unbalanced if these changes went through nor would it make him feel bad to play.

[Copyafriend]

28 minutes ago, Dextops said:

I think the wear armor argument is completely valid. You have a characters who’s only downside is 75 health, and wearing armor almost completely negates that. I don’t see why it matters if noobs are dying because after a noob doesn’t have a problem with that now what? It’s such an easy downside to get over because health barely matters in this game when armor gives you way more health than necessary

Armor being really effective IS a good point, but simultaneously, it does not make you invincible, and having half the health of other characters comes up anytime you’re wearing less than night armor.

(side completely unrelated note, i hate night and marble armor, really OP, you’re practically invincible with them)

even if you are wearing night armor, it means that to play as maxwell you must make and wear the best armor or be in danger, football helmets are really sketchy armor as maxwell, yeah its fine if you CAN rush the daywalker, but the new player experience matters too, and they probably cant, so they have to contend with 75 health and football helmets, and thats pretty difficult to deal with.

in summary, the best armor making you really tough is a good point, but it doesn’t mean that having half max hp is a nonissue either. Its a significant downside, but completely workable. 

i do think maxwell is overtuned, but he requires more prep than every other character. Full shadow gear isn’t that hard to obtain, but always needing night armor AND a thulecite crown AND a darksword means that he uses more resources than any other character to do the same fight, but he IS nonetheless too effective for how many other things he can do.

[Jakepeng99]

45 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Dude its fine to open a discussion while having a preformed opinion that you wanted to discuss, but it seems like you wanted this to just be a “maxwell op” thread, and you dont like people disagreeing. People can have their opinions.

i personally feel like maxwell is a little overtuned, however, he is a character that requires a comparatively high skill level. “Wear armor” doesn’t help much for a noob with a football helmet not watching his health well and dying to deerclops in only 5 hits. Or to the noobie without armor that got one shot by a depth worm. Or to the moderately experienced player who got swarmed by clockworks in the ruins and died when any other character could have gotten away with half their health remaining. 
 

Maxwell DOES have a downside, and its pretty significant for newer players. Just because we’re all experienced and can work around it fairly easily doesn’t make it nonexistent.

i think maxwells “being overtuned” as i put it, has nothing to do with wickerbottom, and everything to do with everything he can do being so cheap and effective. I dont think he should have gotten a gathering skill, the shadows are already the best choppers and miners, they shouldn’t harvest for you as well.

 

You are mostly right. I always wondered if Maxwell would be better if he took extra damage but had more health to compensate. Wx health circuits are often seen as bad since it does not effect how much resources you drain, and armour is often enough to not die with his 125hp.

6 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

i do think maxwell is overtuned, but he requires more prep than every other character. Full shadow gear isn’t that hard to obtain, but always needing night armor AND a thulecite crown AND a darksword means that he uses more resources than any other character to do the same fight, but he IS nonetheless too effective for how many other things he can do.

Though this is inaccurate, he happens to be the best resource gatherer so he can easily get the reeds for night armour, and in general he is great at farming nightmare fuel. Darkswords in general are not that hard to obtain especially since maxwell can spawn tree guards well, and the magician hat is something you will have anyway. He gets no downsides from the equipment too. Saying he needs more prep than Wanda and Wurt is a huge claim

[maxst]

Maybe they could change that when you summon the puppets, instead of having your meter consumed from top to bottom without necessarily consuming sanity, it's from bottom to top and you can't summon if you don't have sanity. So if you wanted to use it as before, you would have to take sanity foods much more into account. But for new and medium players it would force you a bit more to deal with the weakness of having 75 hp (because you can't spam) and you should be much more tactical with your summons if you don't want to go crazy. the bone helmet cancels it but pfff it's the bone helmet

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Armor being really effective IS a good point, but simultaneously, it does not make you invincible, and having half the health of other characters comes up anytime you’re wearing less than night armor.

I mean it might seem that way but it's still not as impactful as it seems. The average enemy usually deals around 20-30 damage which is 6-7 damage with a log suit which translates to somewhere around 10-12 hits before death with the most basic of armors which is a fair bit of breathing room in most situations but even then it's not like night armor is very expensive especially for Maxwell. Sure this might be a issue for a absolute newbie but they're not who should be considered when balancing characters. 

43 minutes ago, Dextops said:

These forums keep double posting my messages and on mobile you can’t even delete quote boxes

on mobile you have to click on the top left corner of the back then click backspace.

[Golden Daemon]

The only problem i have with maxwell is that his duelist puppets are just a set and forget mechanic , i would've preferred if his duelists were weaker but maxwell himself had more active spells and tricks that could aid them in increasing their damage and survivability.
Other than that his other shadows and hat trick is absolutely fun to use and the power increase he gets from wearing magic items is also a nice progression system to have on a character (even if its a bit too passive for my taste) that helps to give the player a character specific goal to pursue.

Maxwell being fun is mostly due to the progression system he has and the fact that all the time you are playing him , you are looking forward to the increases in the power the entirety of your playing session by getting the shadow dimension storage running / setting up magic stations to get shadow sword and night armor / farming nightmare fuel for spells and summons (Wx is also fun to play for the same reason) and ofc the new worker shadows make chores much much easier (its just very calming watching them do their work).

As for his downside, i dont think the low max health is enough, i wish the shadow puppet cost had something better related to his sanity management , not a fan of puppets being the only source of max sanity reduction (there is no choice other than the obvious one) , you could give the same cost to any other character with 200 sanity and it wouldnt matter because it does not interact with his upsides as much as it should.
It would've been much more interesting if at least he also had spells that cost max sanity (for example something like materializing a shadow armor on himself /other players / puppets / followers /  that would use max sanity for as long as they exist and drain from maxwell's sanity when blocking hits) or other mechanics that could make maxwell focus more on maintaining his sanity in exchange for not having to focus on his health as much.