Planar Mechanics Are Horrible.

[-Variant]

38 minutes ago, Evelo said:

idk, I like the idea of planar damage, I just think there needs to be the opposite. Shadow damage or something. Very odd to me that it affects one but not the other. Maybe it will be explained in further updates. We'll see.

Planar refers to the projected dimensional damage.

It's not Lunar exclusive, it's just a generalized thing. There's no faction specific version of it!
Both Lunar and Shadow forces currently use Planar mechanic, such as Deadly Brightshades and Ink Blights!

[_zwb]

The only thing I like about planar mechanics is that it makes Wanda a glass cannon.

Fighting the ink blights is actually more intense than fuel weaver or celestial champion, because I can't just wear night armour and tank the damage as old Wanda, I'd start worrying about dying in this fight.

[Gi-Go]

15 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

I personally feel planar damage to the player actually works out pretty well, and IMO accomplishes the goal of trying to stop powercreep very well.

Armor had an issue of being very good, almost too much so, for most combat experinces (log suits/football helmets give 80%, the thule gear gives 90%, and the marble/night armor suits gave 95%). It was to the point where downsides like Wanda’s/Maxwell’s low HP for high reward almost completely irrelevant if you just wore night armor. It also meant that for bosses to pose a challenge, they needed to ramp up their damage to compensate. The celestial champion is the most noteworthy example, having multiple powerful multi-hit moves that hit for over 100+, per hit.

If they were to continue the trend of making stronger armor, they would already need to ramp up enemy/boss damage even higher, all while the newer armor’s would have more durability and more protection to compensate, which would mean enemies from before the rift would absolutely be trivialized even more by the new content. Instead, they gave enemies planar damage, and gave the new armor planar defense. While the armor is not quite as good for protection as thule gear or the like, it has a number of benefits most armors lack (EX: void robe’s immunity to sanity auras or the brightshade helm’s goggle functionality), and the fact these armors are repairable, making them far more reliable then most other armor sets.

 

My issue with the planar mechanics mainly stem from planar defense with mobs. I personally feel it downscales every weapon before the rift far too fast. Weapons like the dark sword lose over a third of their potential damage output on a 1X damage character, and only get worse the higher the damage gets. I personally feel there should be a damage threshold where damage is not reduced initally until ~50-60 damage, and then is soft capped with the formula for the excess damage above 50. Doing so would still retain the weapons before the rifts starts being alright options, while still encouraging you to upgrade to the post rift options without preventing them from being outclassed by characters with extreme damage multipliers.

All that just to compensate for creating ridiculously high armor % for no reason. In this game you either have no armor which makes up 99% of death causes or you put a basic hat on and become immortal. Those are the armor options. 

[abrocator]

I'm a broken record on this subject but yeah, planar damage is silly and unnecessary. Invent new mechanics instead of effectively creating different elemental types of damage. I mean one mechanic that I just thought of is a type of corrosive attack. It damages your armor over time and you need to wipe it off in order to get rid of it. I don't know if that would work or not.

To be less polemical for a second: maybe this is just a difference of preference. I like RPGs and I like becoming powerful in them. Heck, that's what ends up happening late-game in most RPGs, apparently. Furthermore I like being able to think of combining different mechanics so that the sum of all of them becomes more powerful. Say you combine a stun power with a heavy damage power. In isolation each of the “power“ of these might be 5 points each. But together they might be 20: more than the sum of the parts. I like being able to steal ideas from Laknish videos figure these things out and apply them. Meanwhile, a different preference might be for the devs to actively prevent that synergies become more powerful than the sum of their parts. In fact they might even program in diminishing returns so that the aforementioned stun+heavy damage has the power of 8 instead of the sum which is 10.

To revert to being polemical again: are all powers supposed to be mediocre and every interaction supposed to be grindy? Are you not supposed to get rewarded for experimenting with your abilities and figure out what works well? Because it seems to some that the bar for “too well” is awfully low:

6 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

In this game you either have no armor which makes up 99% of death causes or you put a basic hat on and become immortal.

 

[Jakepeng99]

22 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Just as I wouldn't be surprised to see if we get planar armor with 90%,

Already in the game

[goblinball]

22 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Personally I don't think that being able to speedrun to the good items if you're a good player is necessarily a bad thing. There's still plenty of non-weapon based items that you want (e.g. jellybeans), and plenty of weapons which are more difficult to acquire (e.g. shield of terror). I would've preferred more weapons be added with merits that stand on their own (e.g. shield of terror) instead of just re-introducing the current arsenal with a new coat of paint.

Getting the dark sword first autumn isn’t “speedrunning” though, it takes minimal effort to get it. Your average new player won’t be able to get it on their first world, yes, but your average new player won’t be able to do anything so that’s not really saying much.

While they could’ve just added new, stronger weapons, these weapons would still need to be arguably objectively more powerful (regardless of how unique) than previous weapons since that’s just how progression works; the rifts are end-game content, and end-game weapons need to be stronger than early game weapons (which are the dark sword + a handful of other weapons in this case). Planar damage exists to allow these weapons to be stronger without nullifying early game content and to make the concept of “stronger weapons” more interesting than just “has more dps”

20 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Wow. That is an aweful direction for the game to take. I don't think I'd even thought of it like that before. And now I wish I really hadn't. 

DST has always been a power fantasy, by “new direction” I meant that the devs are focusing on and expanding this power fantasy aspect a bit more. You getting stronger tools at your disposal as the world progresses has ALWAYS been an aspect of dst, you’ve just never heard anyone call dst a power fantasy game before.

[Theukon-dos]

21 hours ago, goblinball said:

DST has always been a power fantasy,

 

Huh????? What Power Fantasy? Where's the power fantasy in hitting a boss's ankles until it dies? Where's the power fantasy in dying if you get too hot or cold? Where's the power fantasy in having to struggle just to keep your belly full?

 

There's definitely fantasy to be had in struggling against and eventually surmounting impossible odds. But that's not a "Power fantasy" last I checked. Quite the opposite even. Plus that's the exact opposite of what the recent updates have been doing. I genuinely don't know how anyone could ever interpret DST as a "power fantasy". Atleast not a good one. 

[Yuuko]

10 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

 

Huh????? What Power Fantasy? Where's the power fantasy in hitting a boss's ankles until it dies? Where's the power fantasy in dying if you get too hot or cold? Where's the power fantasy in having to struggle just to keep your belly full?

The power fantasy is that you can do much better than you did before, and others do, because you KNOW a lot of things about the game.

DST's scaling design is not a grind2win like an mmo, it is a learn2win.  Its one of the things I like about DST.  I can sleep on this game for months, years even, pick it up and do all of the things I like with it almost instantly.  There is never a time when I feel I'm running back through an area clearing it without a reason I want to clear it.  Its never just "kill all of these and then we can have fun."

Fortunately the skill trees stick to this since they are all a 1 time unlock that you can set up however you want afterwards.  A few hours gaming or a quick console command and you got it all at your fingertips.

However its the part I don't like from the planar stuff.  Once you unlock planar stuff suddenly the game IS a grind where you just gotta keep doing this nonsense...  Its a major gripe I have with this new portal stuff.

[Frosty_Mentos]

I don't think this thread got a valid opinion on planar damage/defense considering that we've got not really enough content to go by to judge it's mechanics. Only armored enemies we've got are Toadstool and the new shadow and lunar lads. After getting their gear I feel like they aren't really a massive threat and just takes a good bit of skill to kite and pick who to target and kill off first. Granting that extra planar damage makes them easy and the bonuses you get to kill shadow aligned like clockworks and nightmares lets you cut through enemies with ease. 

Though power creep wise I don't see much difference, most generic creatures are dying off faster which is nice, means there's more to change!

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

I don't think this thread got a valid opinion on planar damage/defense considering that we've got not really enough content to go by to judge it's mechanics. Only armored enemies we've got are Toadstool and the new shadow and lunar lads. After getting their gear I feel like they aren't really a massive threat and just takes a good bit of skill to kite and pick who to target and kill off first. Granting that extra planar damage makes them easy and the bonuses you get to kill shadow aligned like clockworks and nightmares lets you cut through enemies with ease. 

Though power creep wise I don't see much difference, most generic creatures are dying off faster which is nice, means there's more to change!

Planar damage doesn't actually do anything, it's just "Number bigger" without number being bigger. I don't need there to be more enemies to see what I already know. Either there are enough enemies with enough planar defense where "Number bigger" makes the large and balanced current arsenal outdated forcing you to use the planar reskins, or there are not enough enemies with enough planar defense where you need the new "Number bigger" weapons and there was no point in adding it to begin with since it doesn't do anything to help.

[Theukon-dos]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

The power fantasy is that you can do much better than you did before, and others do, because you KNOW a lot of things about the game.

That's not power fantasy though??? Again, there is a fantasy to that. But that's not power fantasy.

[goblinball]

15 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Huh????? What Power Fantasy? Where's the power fantasy in hitting a boss's ankles until it dies? Where's the power fantasy in dying if you get too hot or cold? Where's the power fantasy in having to struggle just to keep your belly full?

 

There's definitely fantasy to be had in struggling against and eventually surmounting impossible odds. But that's not a "Power fantasy" last I checked. Quite the opposite even. Plus that's the exact opposite of what the recent updates have been doing. I genuinely don't know how anyone could ever interpret DST as a "power fantasy". Atleast not a good one. 

The power fantasy comes from just how much stronger you get as the world progresses and how little of a challenge survival is

You’ve phrased this post like uncompromising survival is all there is to DST but everything you listed about struggling to get food or deal with temperatures is completely irrelevant once the player progresses and gets more powerful

winter temperatures are a threat at the start, but once you beat dfly and get the scaled furnace (or get a star caller’s staff from the ruins) then cold is never an issue anymore because of your stronger arsenal; that’s power fantasy gameplay.

I could list off countless other examples of this structure of something being threatening in the early game then being overcome by the player as they get stronger later (all 3 main stats, light, nightmares, revival, materials, combat, etc).

the only difference between before and now is that while other tools got stronger as you progressed, weapon/armor never really had much progression and growth in power, but now it has some progression too.

[Juanasdf]

We have only started with this new type of content. Planar damage is a way of introducing new progression without making the rest of the already established content easier.

They could have gone through the other route, where new mobs and the player get more HP and damage respectively, but DS should always have that factor of "you'll die if you're careless". So having equipment that is just "dark sword but x2 / 3 / 4 damage" would make all of the current content a walk in the park (you could say it already is but I digress).

The flaw of this planar damage system /besides clarity) is the fact that characters that excel in battle should still be good choices lategame, which is why all of them will get some sort of combat improvement in their skill trees, regardless of wether they are good characters or not ATM. And if they are already good (which most of them are) then you can expect a small / not very impactful skill tree (like wolfgang, who had 6 of his perks divided into several tiers to avoid adding many different skills).

[Theukon-dos]

5 hours ago, goblinball said:

The power fantasy comes from just how much stronger you get as the world progresses and how little of a challenge survival is

You’ve phrased this post like uncompromising survival is all there is to DST but everything you listed about struggling to get food or deal with temperatures is completely irrelevant once the player progresses and gets more powerful

winter temperatures are a threat at the start, but once you beat dfly and get the scaled furnace (or get a star caller’s staff from the ruins) then cold is never an issue anymore because of your stronger arsenal; that’s power fantasy gameplay.

I could list off countless other examples of this structure of something being threatening in the early game then being overcome by the player as they get stronger later (all 3 main stats, light, nightmares, revival, materials, combat, etc).

the only difference between before and now is that while other tools got stronger as you progressed, weapon/armor never really had much progression and growth in power, but now it has some progression too.

That's isn't- That's not-

*Deep breath*

That's not power fantasy. That is definitionally not power fantasy. If the only requirement for something to be power fantasy is "[Character] gets better at dealing with problems", then I would wager that nearly every videogame ever made is some form of power fantasy. 

Mario is a power fantasy because it has power ups. Stardew Valley is a power fantasy because you can upgrade your tools and max energy. Pong is a power fantasy because your skills can improve at it. 

 

While the definition for power fantasy is broad, it still has a definition. And generally speaking, I'd summerize it as "Being the coolest guy in the room and making this fact everyone else's problem". That's not to say they can't be hard or have a skill ceiling. But there is a specific association with the term none the less.

 

Armored Core 6 is a game where you pilot a 30 foot tall killer robot that moves like a hummingbird living at 5x the speed and with enough fire power to level a small city where everyone you fight is either utterly baffled how a single AC can carve swathes through them like butter or is too prideful to admit they're not supposed to have so many holes.

Devil May Cry and ULTRAKILL are games that actively measure how flashy you are at beating enemies and encourage an absolute mastery of their mechanics. With masters of the craft being able to make even the most basic levels look like any other game's flashiest moments. 

Metal Gear Rising: Revengance is a game where you play a cyborg ninja whose tutorial boss is a military super weapon that you cut apart like it's made of wet cardboard and Elmer's white glue. 

 

Meanwhile, no matter how good you get at don't starve, no matter how much equipment you unlock, no matter how many bosses you beat, you're still just an ordinary shmuck who needs to stay warm by a fire unless they want to freeze to death.

 

To call Don't Starve/Together a power fantasy requires having no idea what the term actually means. 

[Cheggf]

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

That's isn't- That's not-

*Deep breath*

That's not power fantasy. That is definitionally not power fantasy. If the only requirement for something to be power fantasy is "[Character] gets better at dealing with problems", then I would wager that nearly every videogame ever made is some form of power fantasy. 

Mario is a power fantasy because it has power ups. Stardew Valley is a power fantasy because you can upgrade your tools and max energy. Pong is a power fantasy because your skills can improve at it. 

 

While the definition for power fantasy is broad, it still has a definition. And generally speaking, I'd summerize it as "Being the coolest guy in the room and making this fact everyone else's problem". That's not to say they can't be hard or have a skill ceiling. But there is a specific association with the term none the less.

 

Armored Core 6 is a game where you pilot a 30 foot tall killer robot that moves like a hummingbird living at 5x the speed and with enough fire power to level a small city where everyone you fight is either utterly baffled how a single AC can carve swathes through them like butter or is too prideful to admit they're not supposed to have so many holes.

Devil May Cry and ULTRAKILL are games that actively measure how flashy you are at beating enemies and encourage an absolute mastery of their mechanics. With masters of the craft being able to make even the most basic levels look like any other game's flashiest moments. 

Metal Gear Rising: Revengance is a game where you play a cyborg ninja whose tutorial boss is a military super weapon that you cut apart like it's made of wet cardboard and Elmer's white glue. 

 

Meanwhile, no matter how good you get at don't starve, no matter how much equipment you unlock, no matter how many bosses you beat, you're still just an ordinary shmuck who needs to stay warm by a fire unless they want to freeze to death.

 

To call Don't Starve/Together a power fantasy requires having no idea what the term actually means. 

Warframe is a good example of a power fantasy game. That game is so boring because it's literally just power fantasy: the game. You press 4 and you kill every single enemy without even needing LoS to them. You effortlessly cleave through large groups of enemies for minimal effort. The enemies pose no threat to you whatsoever. It's too much power fantasy, too little game.

DST is about as far from a power fantasy as you can get. This game would be a power fantasy if we had like 90% base damage resistance, and every time we hit an enemy it does 200 damage to all enemies within 2 tiles with a bunch of flashy animations. And also remove all that temperature, hunger, and sanity stuff, that's getting in the way of power fantasy. That's weakness fantasy.

[goblinball]

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

While the definition for power fantasy is broad, it still has a definition. And generally speaking, I'd summerize it as "Being the coolest guy in the room and making this fact everyone else's problem". That's not to say they can't be hard or have a skill ceiling. But there is a specific association with the term none the less.

The definition for power fantasy that I’m familiar with and have frequently seen used is a game centered around getting more and more power and strength as you progress

stuff like your average MMORPG or terraria 

[Cheggf]

4 minutes ago, goblinball said:

The definition for power fantasy that I’m familiar with and have frequently seen used is a game centered around getting more and more power and strength as you progress

stuff like your average MMORPG or terraria 

That's almost synonymous with "videogame". Very few videogames lack any form of progression. 

[Yuuko]

12 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Planar damage doesn't actually do anything, it's just "Number bigger" without number being bigger. I don't need there to be more enemies to see what I already know. Either there are enough enemies with enough planar defense where "Number bigger" makes the large and balanced current arsenal outdated forcing you to use the planar reskins, or there are not enough enemies with enough planar defense where you need the new "Number bigger" weapons and there was no point in adding it to begin with since it doesn't do anything to help.

This is why I think - if they really want to do this planar stuff they need to make elemental damage a larger part of the game in general, so part of weapon and enemy variations is element type at all stages of the game. The binary you describe would be pretty accurate except that BS sword and scythe are basically better then any other weapon in the game even if you only occasionally need planar b/c its just more convenient to have planar with you anyway, and there is no downside to using planar weapon on non-planar enemy.  There is no competition against planar, it is simply superior.  Even without many planar enemies we have become switched out to only using planar weapons b/c why not?

If planar wasn't a part of this the weapons would still be good b/c they can be repaired, but then we'd still have choice at least...

8 hours ago, Juanasdf said:

We have only started with this new type of content. Planar damage is a way of introducing new progression without making the rest of the already established content easier.

They could have gone through the other route, where new mobs and the player get more HP and damage respectively, but DS should always have that factor of "you'll die if you're careless". So having equipment that is just "dark sword but x2 / 3 / 4 damage" would make all of the current content a walk in the park (you could say it already is but I digress).

The flaw of this planar damage system /besides clarity) is the fact that characters that excel in battle should still be good choices lategame, which is why all of them will get some sort of combat improvement in their skill trees, regardless of wether they are good characters or not ATM. And if they are already good (which most of them are) then you can expect a small / not very impactful skill tree (like wolfgang, who had 6 of his perks divided into several tiers to avoid adding many different skills).

What makes you think they would have needed to increase their health?  Since planar weapons do as much damage as normal weapons, the only time they have more effective health is the first time you interact with them b/c you don't have planar type.  Once you switch to planar weapons and they no longer have extra health...  They could have just released them with the health they had but no planar BS and the only difference is their new equips would have been enticing for their perks like bouncing, repairing, etc rather than being forced to use them through arbitrary damage typing in a game that has no damage typing lol

Same with armor.  ppl like "oh but everyone has 90% armor its too op they can't just make enemies hit harder" okay so planar will hit you hard but then you get planar defense and its all k again...

This is why its all artificial.  Take planar out and most of this content doesn't actually change.  Its all an arbitrary set of hoops to jump through to pretend we're in a higher difficulty tier when really we just do 1 little thing to unlock planar and its all the same (except like, we have only a few weapons compared to before.)

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

That's isn't- That's not-

*Deep breath*

That's not power fantasy. That is definitionally not power fantasy.

Are you sure about that?

Power fantasy in gaming is basically whatever vector the game uses to give you power over the game.  In Mario games power fantasy is largely a game of gaining and maintaining powerups and life counts.  In shooters it is about getting certain weapons which have distinct advantages over most other weapons, knowing the map, and utilizing these over "scrubs" to get your wins.

The power fantasy of DST is not about levels, or time spent playing.  It is about knowing what the answers to the problems are.  When a player boots up the game and gets their first nightfall not knowing how to make a torch they die.  Then they learn how to make a torch, and laugh at how the very dangerous night is now sidestepped because they know how to make a torch.

This is why DST does not need rpg mechanics, or a lot of item progression.  The progression is in your knowledge bank.  This is what separates this game from others where you do need to grind to unlock certain things.  There are not many particularly rare drops in DST.  If you know about something like the Dfly furnace, then you learn how to fight dfly, and once you've done that you can always get a furnace for winter and scoff at the knaves still chopping firewood lol.

This is why ruins rushing is such a powerful strategy, and why its a go-to for many experienced players.  They know the value of something like a dwarf star, early teleport cane, thul crown, etc and go for it

The power fantasy of DST is knowledge.  It takes some time to get things done still, but how long you played isn't an indicator of how much you were able to do.  You can easily base sit and survive 1000 days if you want while someone else beats all the bosses in the first 100 and quits lol.  This is why so many like to gatekeep on what strategy are allowed or not.  They get beat up by Dfly and think "wow, this fight is so hard" but then they see someone set up a wall and take her out ez, then they think "I was not too stupid to think of a wall, its just a wall is cheating! that's why you beat them so easy" lol  but they just don't understand.  DST is not a game of skill, it is a game of knowledge.

[Wonz]

I wonder how good it would be if armor was giving low defense % like just 30% for endgame, 15% log suit. But monsters hit much weaker, food healed you only if you had about 15 hunger missing or was just gradually less efficient. 

It would be easier for new players who have no idea how to find healing, everything hits weaker so they survive better and actually learn more before they die. 

Bosses are harder for "veterans", you can't tank or last forever while eating 100 hits because you took 10 armors and 40 pierogi. 

Monster still in the end hit you for about as much with armor as before since they hit weaker but armor is worse yet still valuable since any bit of healing is very valuable since healing was nerfed.

Now max hp stat matters at all.

Would need some tweaks here and there like rot not reducing your hunger to not abuse the 15 hunger missing thing. Character healing abilities changes like wortox and wigfrid.

It could be real hard mode, not just "unga bunga, turn this setting to take more damage now".

[Cheggf]

Planar damage would have been cool if it was exclusively a damage dealt by enemies with nothing players can do about it. Just a flat amount of damage that pierces through armor. No planar weapons, no planar armor, no enemy planar armor. Just them dealing planar damage. Then they could have the only real advantage of it (reducing effectiveness of 95% armors) without the drawbacks (limiting creativity and number of options).

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, goblinball said:

The definition for power fantasy that I’m familiar with and have frequently seen used is a game centered around getting more and more power and strength as you progress

stuff like your average MMORPG or terraria 

Not sure what definition you've seen. But that's not what it means. Just look up "What is a Power Fantasy", and the definitions you'll see will generally line up with mine. Though they may also talk about Anime power fantasies, which... tend to be a bit... y'know what? let's not. 

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Are you sure about that?

YES!

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Power fantasy in gaming is basically whatever vector the game uses to give you power over the game.  In Mario games power fantasy is largely a game of gaining and maintaining powerups and life counts.  In shooters it is about getting certain weapons which have distinct advantages over most other weapons, knowing the map, and utilizing these over "scrubs" to get your wins.

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

The power fantasy of DST is knowledge.  It takes some time to get things done still, but how long you played isn't an indicator of how much you were able to do.  You can easily base sit and survive 1000 days if you want while someone else beats all the bosses in the first 100 and quits lol.  This is why so many like to gatekeep on what strategy are allowed or not.  They get beat up by Dfly and think "wow, this fight is so hard" but then they see someone set up a wall and take her out ez, then they think "I was not too stupid to think of a wall, its just a wall is cheating! that's why you beat them so easy" lol  but they just don't understand.  DST is not a game of skill, it is a game of knowledge.

That is not power fantasy. 

 

The term "power fantasy" has very specific meanings that I already explained, and you conveniently ignored. I- I don't even know what else I can tell you anymore. Literally everything there was to say on the subject just went right through you. 

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Wonz said:

I wonder how good it would be if armor was giving low defense % like just 30% for endgame, 15% log suit. But monsters hit much weaker, food healed you only if you had about 15 hunger missing or was just gradually less efficient. 

It would be easier for new players who have no idea how to find healing, everything hits weaker so they survive better and actually learn more before they die. 

Bosses are harder for "veterans", you can't tank or last forever while eating 100 hits because you took 10 armors and 40 pierogi. 

Monster still in the end hit you for about as much with armor as before since they hit weaker but armor is worse yet still valuable since any bit of healing is very valuable since healing was nerfed.

Now max hp stat matters at all.

Would need some tweaks here and there like rot not reducing your hunger to not abuse the 15 hunger missing thing. Character healing abilities changes like wortox and wigfrid.

It could be real hard mode, not just "unga bunga, turn this setting to take more damage now".

Nah b/c that just isn't how DST works.  DST is designed around extreme punishment for making mistakes, and then a much much easier time for doing things right.

Example:  You spawn in a new world and its night time.  You get less then 30 seconds to find light or you literally die.  (maybe you get 30 seconds if you're winona.)  However you learn to build a torch and suddenly nights aren't bad at all!  As long as you have a torch.  Mess up and forget light and its straight back to death.

Same for bosses.  First winter hits and you get a deerclops, she swings for 75 a hit.  That's 2 hits to kill most characters without armor.  But you learn what armor is, wear that and you're k again.

DST isn't about 2 hits killing you unless you're doing something wrong.

2 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

 

The term "power fantasy" has very specific meanings that I already explained, and you conveniently ignored. I- I don't even know what else I can tell you anymore. Literally everything there was to say on the subject just went right through you. 

No it doesn't actually, and you are picking one which you feel suits your own view fine I guess, but is 100% NOT a good general use one.  Power fantasy in games is basically whatever vector you use to gain power.  If its an MMO the power fantasy is if you play the game like its a full time job you'll level up and earn low-drop-rate god loot and then basically ignore all enemies in the game without worrying about skill or anything.  The power fantasy of a crusader differs from a ninja in that a crusader is going to tank hits reducing their damage to negligible amounts while the PF of a ninja is going to be dodging every attack.

[Theukon-dos]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

No it doesn't actually, and you are picking one which you feel suits your own view fine I guess, but is 100% NOT a good general use one.  Power fantasy in games is basically whatever vector you use to gain power.  If its an MMO the power fantasy is if you play the game like its a full time job you'll level up and earn low-drop-rate god loot and then basically ignore all enemies in the game without worrying about skill or anything.  The power fantasy of a crusader differs from a ninja in that a crusader is going to tank hits reducing their damage to negligible amounts while the PF of a ninja is going to be dodging every attack.

No, it's just the definition. Or atleast the definition that; where you to call something a "power fantasy" 98% of people would understand it as. You and Goblin are the 2% here.

Quote

Power Fantasy - TV Tropes

 

 

[Cheggf]

Wait how has DST "always been a power fantasy" if power fantasy is just a weird way of saying progression (which almost every game has), but also getting infinite Dark Swords first autumn is super easy and there's not actually progression so we need to add number bigger weapons to add progression/power fantasy which there simultaneously has always and has never been? 

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

No, it's just the definition. Or atleast the definition that; where you to call something a "power fantasy" 98% of people would understand it as. You and Goblin are the 2% here.

 

Nah, give this a read, its much more on the point.  To think that power fantasy is just being god moded is a poor understanding and leaves a lot on the table.  To really capture the power fantasy you have to see what vectors the players can experience and express their power through.  One of the power fantasies of Mine Craft is allowing you to sculpt the world.  Any vector that gives power and agency to players over the games is the basis of that game's power fantasy.

https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/the-heart-of-gaming-is-the-power

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Wait how has DST "always been a power fantasy" if power fantasy is just a weird way of saying progression (which almost every game has), but also getting infinite Dark Swords first autumn is super easy and there's not actually progression so we need to add number bigger weapons to add progression/power fantasy which there simultaneously has always and has never been? 

Its not "progression."  Its just the vector of power.  DST is a power fantasy in 2 ways, one is that through knowledge you can dismantle the extreme dangers of the game and turn it into a sand box, the other is that once it is a sand box you can decorate and reform the world to your whims.