Skill tree domination.

[Pomato]

LOL I don't know how and why did this happen, but now wherever I look around skill tree discussions are everywhere.

Everyone SURE is invested, huh?

I don't know, perhaps one day this game can become a MMORPG!

[Theukon-dos]

Well, that's certainly one way to put it.

 

Really feels like Klei's trying to avoid splitting a player base that's already been split. At this point, the only thing I can hope for is a Terraria-style "Expert" mode. 

[gamehun20]

11 minutes ago, The Box said:

I don't know, perhaps one day this game can become a MMORPG!

Let's hope that never happens

[Antynomity]

Not everyone, 4 years of reworks just to start EVEN MORE character-based updates.

20 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Well, that's certainly one way to put it.

 

Really feels like Klei's trying to avoid splitting a player base that's already been split. At this point, the only thing I can hope for is a Terraria-style "Expert" mode. 

Don't get me started on how horrible the ocean still is.

Though I know you're an ocean conneissour like myself.

[Capybara007]

This game is so mmorpggacha soulslite hack and slash paytowin amiright guys

[flamboyant wolf]

1 hour ago, The Box said:

I don't know, perhaps one day this game can become a MMORPG!

I've seen people say this a bunch during the skill tree update beta, and it just doesn't really make much sense to me.

Skill trees have been appearing in various different genres of games for a while now: Ori and the blind forest (platforming metroidvania), Loop hero (roguelite), Forager(idk what genre it is tbh), even BTD6 has skill trees now(monkey knowledge thing), so I don't feel like it's necessarily unfitting for the kind of game dst is. 

[Mike23Ua]

12 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Well, that's certainly one way to put it.

 

Really feels like Klei's trying to avoid splitting a player base that's already been split. At this point, the only thing I can hope for is a Terraria-style "Expert" mode. 

I want what brought me to the franchise in the first place: RogueLike features, randomly generated worlds (I’d prefer much more random generation then the game currently offers), an actual RogueLike mode (Adventures from Solo DS) oh yeah and uhm significantly less focus in trying to turn the game into Raid Boss Quest 3.

And I’m sorry chief but a Terraria like “Expert Mode” ain’t gonna be it.

I want the game to challenge me in ways that DS once did.

And more importantly: Klei changed DST to be more popular they casualized the holy high hell out of a lot of things to try and gain a larger audience, but what Klei may not be aware of-

Is that 2023 has seen a MASSIVE surge in popularity in the RogueLike Genre, in fact there’s one game in this category in particular coming out later this year I’m looking very much forward to- MythForce!

But the fact these type of games are now taking center stage is why Klei should return the DST franchise to its DS roots.

And a Terraria Expert Mode isn’t going to provide that, what we REALLY Need is a RogueLike Campaign.

Skill Trees are a common feature in RogueLike/Lites, you play, you die, you level up, you play again with some new skills, but the difference between most RogueLikes & DST- Is that DST tends to be more of an open ended sandbox, where as those other games are all designed to kill you so you start over in a new randomly generated level/world.

I am BEYOND Hyped for MythForce, 4 Player Co-op randomized Dungeon raiding, with a Saturday morning cartoon Artstyle, what’s not to love??

Unfortunately: I’ve started to come to terms that DST may NEVER reinstate some of the features and challenges I enjoyed about DS, and that I should start looking elsewhere to scratch that RogueLike/Lite itch that the original DS started within Me.

[Fufuji]

Maybe it's more of a roguelite game?

[Theukon-dos]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

~~snip~~

You do realize I only used Expert mode as an example, right? While our interests may not exactly line up, we can both agree that the game shouldn't become a plain boss rush. I just used Terraria's Expert Mode as an example sense I had assumed it would get the point across. An optional mode for players who wanted to crank the difficulty back up a notch. 

[GenomeSquirrel]

The game is stagnating, the ground is very well tread; yet skill points are something new, something we may be able to influence, something that isn’t highly cryptic and time consuming like the other planned content. 
 

a mmorpg would at least let us retain progress.

… I seem to be falling out of love with this game again.

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

snip 

If I want to play a boss rush I can play the binding of Isaac

1 hour ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

snip

same, had to make a lights out world to enjoy the game again due to how boring it is doing the same thing, even characters you choose don't really affect anything because most downsides are ignorable even after reworks and some can straight up turn them off.

[Random Guy000]

On 8/27/2023 at 5:17 PM, Capybara007 said:

This game is so mmorpggacha soulslite hack and slash paytowin amiright guys

The Dark Souls of survival games

[Duck986]

On 8/27/2023 at 5:54 AM, Antynomity said:

Don't get me started on how horrible the ocean still is.

Though I know you're an ocean conneissour like myself.

Everyone's talking about ocean, but nobody talks about caves, which are literally used just for ruins and bosses

On 8/27/2023 at 6:36 AM, skile said:

I've seen people say this a bunch during the skill tree update beta, and it just doesn't really make much sense to me.

Skill trees have been appearing in various different genres of games for a while now: Ori and the blind forest (platforming metroidvania), Loop hero (roguelite), Forager(idk what genre it is tbh), even BTD6 has skill trees now(monkey knowledge thing), so I don't feel like it's necessarily unfitting for the kind of game dst is. 

You missed one itsy-bitsy detail - DST was initially designed to play without skill trees, unlike Forager or Loop Hero. You had to use your own skill to proceed, not permanent bonuses.

[flamboyant wolf]

40 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

 

You missed one itsy-bitsy detail - DST was initially designed to play without skill trees, unlike Forager or Loop Hero. You had to use your own skill to proceed, not permanent bonuses.

You still have to use your own skills and experience to proceed, but now you can also customize your character's kit a little, after playing them for some time. Besides, it's not like skill trees made the game as a whole significantly easier anyway, game balance isn't gonna shatter if a few weaker characters get closer to Maxwell's power level.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, skile said:

You still have to use your own skills and experience to proceed, but now you can also customize your character's kit a little, after playing them for some time. Besides, it's not like skill trees made the game as a whole significantly easier anyway, game balance isn't gonna shatter if a few weaker characters get closer to Maxwell's power level.

The funniest part about the skill trees is that absolutely literally no one would be complaining about the content they added to them now, had they been part of the characters original rework, take Woodie as an Example- His Lucy Crafting Skills could’ve just been extra items he could craft alongside his were totems and NO ONE would’ve given it a second thought.

People only complain about the skill trees NOW, because instead of just having those skills when you start the game, you have to atleast play the character for a couple hours to unlock their full kit.

Personally I like that skill trees force players to play a character for so many hours to earn all their Insight.

I can see that Klei tried their best to pull an OverWatch 2, Aka: In order to unlock some of the characters in that game, before you can even play as them in Online Modes you have to complete a check list of Tutorial Objectives as that character, this ensures that when you actually DO join an Online Match, you atleast somewhat know what your character is meant to do in the game.

DSTs skill trees won’t do this, and “Technically” you can just go idle all day and unlock full insight, BUT for the people who actually WILL spend all those hours playing the character, hopefully they learn a little about how to effectively play as them.

Completely Ignoring Wilson’s skill tree because it’s a Joke… lets deep dive into the other 3 and what it actually teaches you..

Woodie: Let’s start with the simplest one, his skill tree will help teach you that Moose is good for Combat (thanks to perks like passive healing) Beaver is good at mining (faster mine speed perks & tail slam) And Goose is well.. mostly a joke. It will also lessen the penalty of switching forms by not forcing you into full starvation status when exiting a Wereform.

Wolfgang- Right off the Bat Wolfgang’s skill tree teaches players they can craft a Gym, & Dumbells, even if they’ve Never played as Wolfgang before in their life.. the skill tree informs them that not only does he have these craftables but skill investment can add new dumbells to his kit or boost his might to higher heights on the Gym, not only that but if people suck at the Gym Mini-Game they can invest a skill point to auto complete it. Wolfgang also has craftables he can only use in Normal form in this skill tree so it’ll teach even a NEW player that his Mightiness is tied to what he can do.

Wormwood: Oh dear god, Wormwoods skill tree is a Overly bloated headache… but- The TL:DR is it’ll teach new players about bloom speed, or that they can heal by crafting compost wraps (faster heal perk) it’ll also teach them wormwood can talk to and tend to plants needs, as well as that Wormwood has exclusive perks to yield higher results from Mushroom planters (which hopefully guides them to learn how to craft and use Mushroom planters like it did for me) Other noteable perks are: Less harsh health penalties with faster or passive HP healing.

In short: The skill trees are a clear cut directional guide that will hopefully teach a new DST player at least how to half-ass play as the character.

Personally I wish you had to OverWatch 2 them- (complete a check list guided tutorial before you can play them online) but for what it is…. the skill trees do their job.

and as a added bonus, they further flesh out a characters playstyle and personality to make playing them even more unique.

[Flip Face]

I remember a discussion here on the forums about being able to play with non-reworked versions of characters, and that it would divide the community and many players would be harassed if they chose to keep the "basic" characters.

Wx78 can now no longer use all of his abilities at once.

Wilson got a tree. And all survivors can be customized, regardless of whether the chosen skills are bad.

[Theukon-dos]

2 hours ago, Duck986 said:

Everyone's talking about ocean, but nobody talks about caves, which are literally used just for ruins and bosses

Atleast the caves have the ruins. Something so valuable and so game-changing that many players dictate their entire playstyles around getting in and out of them ASAP once they start a world. I know people will sometimes rush the lunar island. But it's not nearly as rewarding as rushing the ruins. 

2 hours ago, Duck986 said:

You missed one itsy-bitsy detail - DST was initially designed to play without skill trees, unlike Forager or Loop Hero. You had to use your own skill to proceed, not permanent bonuses.

Yeah, that's another big problem I feel with all these updates. Klei's tacking systems onto the game that the game was never designed to support. It strikes me as really unsustainable, and the game would really need some big rewrites to actually handle them.

2 hours ago, skile said:

You still have to use your own skills and experience to proceed, but now you can also customize your character's kit a little, after playing them for some time. Besides, it's not like skill trees made the game as a whole significantly easier anyway, game balance isn't gonna shatter if a few weaker characters get closer to Maxwell's power level.

Except that now you need significantly less skill because characters where made stronger.

Also, everyone's getting a skill tree. Sure, nothing wrong with weak characters being closer to Maxwell's power level. But what happens when Maxwell himself gets a skill tree? Even Wolfgang's incredibly tepid and boring kill tree was a pretty big boost in power, all things considered. So what sort of Devil will Maxwell end up as?

[Ulisesvolador]

51 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

People only complain about the skill trees NOW, because instead of just having those skills when you start the game, you have to atleast play the character for a couple hours to unlock their full kit.

Personally I like that skill trees force players to play a character for so many hours to earn all their Insight.

It would be better if you got skill points doing ACTUAL activities related with the characters you're playing with and also by exploring the world, instead of """Playing""" for 2 ingame years per character.

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I can see that Klei tried their best to pull an OverWatch 2, Aka: In order to unlock some of the characters in that game, before you can even play as them in Online Modes you have to complete a check list of Tutorial Objectives as that character, this ensures that when you actually DO join an Online Match, you atleast somewhat know what your character is meant to do in the game.

Yea, no.

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Personally I wish you had to OverWatch 2 them- (complete a check list guided tutorial before you can play them online) but for what it is…. the skill trees do their job.

Yea, no x2, making the skill trees interactive with the world and with the character activities is better than a "tutorial", so players can actually learn how to play their character and the game while they are playing with other people.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Ulisesvolador said:

It would be better if you got skill points doing ACTUAL activities related with the characters you're playing with and also by exploring the world, instead of """Playing""" for 2 ingame years per character.

Yea, no.

Yea, no x2, making the skill trees interactive with the world and with the character activities is better than a "tutorial", so players can actually learn how to play their character and the game while they are playing with other people.

The problem with playing with other people… is that it’s not going to teach them that plucking flowers or chopping trees near a Wormwood is absolutely going to yank his sanity. Or that spamming the Moon Book as Wicker is going to make Woodie feel like Ben 10 with a glitched out Omnitrix, It’s not going to teach you not to stand near a Wendy with Abigail in Riled up Mode while she attacks bees, butterflies, hordes of spiders etc as Wortox due to how quickly it will Overload his souls capacity.

Only a Tutorial is going to do that. (Or bad experiences in learning through multiplayer)

[Uedo]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The problem with playing with other people… is that it’s not going to teach them that plucking flowers or chopping trees near a Wormwood is absolutely going to yank his sanity. Or that spamming the Moon Book as Wicker is going to make Woodie feel like Ben 10 with a glitched out Omnitrix, It’s not going to teach you not to stand near a Wendy with Abigail in Riled up Mode while she attacks bees, butterflies, hordes of spiders etc as Wortox due to how quickly it will Overload his souls capacity.

Only a Tutorial is going to do that. (Or bad experiences in learning through multiplayer)

Mike, none of these things are actual problems. I mean how far do you wanna go with this? Should we also have a tutorial that teaches you how to operate your keyboard - Cause, you know, people may press the wrong letters and accidently do some *insert thing*.

Only a Tutorial is going to do that. (Or bad experiences in learning through multiplayer)

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, Uedo said:

Mike, none of these things are actual problems. I mean how far do you wanna go with this? Should we also have a tutorial that teaches you how to operate your keyboard - Cause, you know, people may press the wrong letters and accidently do some *insert thing*.

Only a Tutorial is going to do that. (Or bad experiences in learning through multiplayer)

While your getting wayyyy off topic- let me just ask have you ever played DST using a console controller?

If you haven’t- then you’ll never know the pains of trying to Rile up Abigail for a hound wave in winter while huddled next to a campfire only to carelessly burn the flower in the firepit and be left defenseless when those hounds show up.

Klei has patched this so you can no longer burn Abigail’s flower (because the prompt to command her also threw crap in a campfire on console controllers)

But this is just an example of things players needed to bring to Klei’s attention to better improve the game.

You have no idea how easy it is to “Accidentally” cause mass forest/base arson as Willow while trying to perform a completely different action… (such as cook food with your lighter)

So yes, we actually DO need a tutorial so people don’t press the wrong buttons at the wrong time.

But nonetheless.. that has nothing to do with skill trees.

Skill trees as I stated in my above post: have mostly been guiding players how to better play their characters, and if that’s any hint at future skill trees- then expect Willows to involve more perks for her lighter & Bernie maybe even better winter insulation while cuddling Bernie etc…

[Ulisesvolador]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The problem with playing with other people… is that it’s not going to teach them that plucking flowers or chopping trees near a Wormwood is absolutely going to yank his sanity. Or that spamming the Moon Book as Wicker is going to make Woodie feel like Ben 10 with a glitched out Omnitrix, It’s not going to teach you not to stand near a Wendy with Abigail in Riled up Mode while she attacks bees, butterflies, hordes of spiders etc as Wortox due to how quickly it will Overload his souls capacity.

Only a Tutorial is going to do that. (Or bad experiences in learning through multiplayer)

Let's be honest here, do you really think new players will play a tutorial of every character?, like imagine it for a moment, a new player buys and starts the game, they go play online or make their own world and see 10+ characters to choose from, they will only play what, 1-3 tutorials? from the characters that they got more interested in, if they only played wilson tutorial they won't know chopping trees and removing flowers is harmful for Wormwood. It's even worse, you need to pay for wormwood and any DLC character so you can't know what those characters do, because its behind a paywall (for the record: im not against DLC characters)

(the ben 10 reference was funny.)

[Mysterious box]

47 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Except that now you need significantly less skill because characters where made stronger.

Also, everyone's getting a skill tree. Sure, nothing wrong with weak characters being closer to Maxwell's power level. But what happens when Maxwell himself gets a skill tree? Even Wolfgang's incredibly tepid and boring kill tree was a pretty big boost in power, all things considered. So what sort of Devil will Maxwell end up as?

Honestly this is what's worrying me about everyone getting one it's often downplayed but Maxwell I'd argue is currently the most overpowered character with just about anything you could ask for..

[Uedo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

While your getting wayyyy off topic- let me just ask have you ever played DST using a console controller?

If you haven’t- then you’ll never know the pains of trying to Rile up Abigail for a hound wave in winter while huddled next to a campfire only to carelessly burn the flower in the firepit and be left defenseless when those hounds show up.

Klei has patched this so you can no longer burn Abigail’s flower (because the prompt to command her also threw crap in a campfire on console controllers)

But this is just an example of things players needed to bring to Klei’s attention to better improve the game.

You have no idea how easy it is to “Accidentally” cause mass forest/base arson as Willow while trying to perform a completely different action… (such as cook food with your lighter)

So yes, we actually DO need a tutorial so people don’t press the wrong buttons at the wrong time.

But nonetheless.. that has nothing to do with skill trees.

Skill trees as I stated in my above post: have mostly been guiding players how to better play their characters, and if that’s any hint at future skill trees- then expect Willows to involve more perks for her lighter & Bernie maybe even better winter insulation while cuddling Bernie etc…

I mean, again, I think I was clear :P I'm sorry you seem to be annoyed with controllers, I guess. 

Back to what I was talking about though; No, we do not need a tutorial.

[flamboyant wolf]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly this is what's worrying me about everyone getting one it's often downplayed but Maxwell I'd argue is currently the most overpowered character with just about anything you could ask for..

I know I've already been "controversial" enough on this post, but here goes nothing. Even though I know it won't ever happen, I'm still hoping, that one day, klei just removes Maxwell's ability to read Wicker's books. Yeah, yeah, nerfs are bad and all, but really, a character being able to use the entire kit of another character for no good reason doesn't do much good to character balance, even ignoring Maxwell being one of the stronger characters. Like, it's just bad. Yes, once Wicker gets some perks in her skill tree update, she'll probably get back some individuality, that would make one want to stick with her, however, the fact that she even needs this is pretty upsetting, and even then, we either get significant skills that make Wicker(a pretty powerful character) even stronger (when she doesn't really need to be), or some basic skills, like Wolfgang's, which would barely fix the issue, if at all (which would be fine! it would be! if Wicker actually had her main kit just to herself, instead of sharing it with Maxwell), and furthermore, as you mentioned, Maxwell will be receiving a tree as well, and while I do hope klei know what they're doing and Maxwell's tree won't give him any further significant buffs, we'll still have a character who will always be a few steps ahead of nearly every other character, due to actually being 2 powerhouses in the tranchcoat. 

Sorry if this is incomprehensible, it's midnight and I'm just done with this Wickerbottom injustice. rant over.