Types of boss mechanics that should be scaled

[Lardee]

18 minutes ago, bloopah said:

The most optimal equipment as in cheese methods for not having to deal with the boss part of the... boss.

Is using weatherpains to quickly destroy trees considered cheese?  I've never heard this opinion before.  IMO, it's not cheese since you're using the weapon as it was intended to be used by the developers.  And that's only one part of the boss fight.

52 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I mean ARE they supposed to be the toughest challenges in the game though? That may have been TRUE once upon a long time ago when literally the only content you had left to enjoy were those raid bosses, but NOW new content such as character skill perks & new world wide changes are being introduced only AFTER you fight these raid bosses.

Do they really need to be so challenging that they lock players out of experiencing new gameplay content?

Most of the raid bosses don't lock players out of experiencing new gameplay content, and for the ones that do, the lack of skill/experience can be overcome by amassing resources.  If you're talking about Crab King, that's just a really badly designed boss that Klei gave up on.  It's not the case with Toadstool, there are many viable ways to beat it without cheese methods.

[bloopah]

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Is using weatherpains to quickly destroy trees considered cheese?  I've never heard this opinion before.  IMO, it's not cheese since you're using the weapon as it was intended to be used by the developers.  And that's only one part of the boss fight.

The raid bosses were designed to only be able to be beaten in a group. I consider using Weather Pains cheese as it would be infeasible for solo players to chop the trees normally.

[Mike23Ua]

30 minutes ago, bloopah said:

The raid bosses were designed to only be able to be beaten in a group. I consider using Weather Pains cheese as it would be infeasible for solo players to chop the trees normally.

This just makes me wish Winona gets a Cat In the Hat style gadget machine that chops trees for her:

Spoiler

I can picture it working if it was like a stationary structure with stretchy arms, all wielding axes, or whatever she equips it with.

Toadstool would be do-able solo if a had such a Who-Gadget.

[Picklesaurus]

1 hour ago, bloopah said:

The raid bosses were designed to only be able to be beaten in a group. I consider using Weather Pains cheese as it would be infeasible for solo players to chop the trees normally.

I use a bunch of glass axes combined with torch and fire staff if I want to beat it solo without weather pain, it works for wilson. I find toad solo fight fun but a resource sink, it is also a really long solo fight. I agree there should be some small adjustment to the amount or frequency of mushtree he spawns when it is a solo player. With that said, Crab king is on a much worse spot than toad, Crab is much less manageable and much more punishing to a solo player while also locking content behind it, including the new surface rift content. I also find it funny that you need to beat Crab King to fight Celestial Champion considering that Crab king feels much harder to beat and is much more resource intensive than Celestial.

[Jakepeng99]

9 hours ago, Lardee said:

It's a raid boss which are suppose to be the hardest challenges in the game.  It would be a huge problem if they weren't really tough to beat without spending time and resources to acquire the most optimal equipment for the fight.

Toadstool is really slow, if anything it makes the fight more fun with depth. You could probably destroy two or three trees using their body.

[Nogard78]

Toadstool is a really fun boss (for me) even if a lot of people say otherwise. Just get a few glass axes, a ice staff or/and pan flute and a good weapon, 1 morning star i winter/spring will be enough, you can even use hambat with enough speed boosta to not spoil it. Perhaps bring one weather pain if you a tree spawn inside a spore cloud.

But if changing anything about the boss, the tree count would be best. 

[Jakepeng99]

7 hours ago, bloopah said:

and it's the boss at the end of a questline that takes at least a year minimum for the average solo player to complete and even has what the playerbase collectively agrees is the worst boss in Don't Starve history, then there definetly needs to be change.

Nigtmare were pig is also S teir boss. Probably the best one in the franchise, it is fun and rewarding to fight. The best comparisson to it is nightmare king grimm (Ignoring difficulty). It is a fun and consistent fight that always keeps you on your toes, it is so satisfying to get some extra hits on them during the phase you are meant to be focused on dodging their attacks. The boss talking, and knocking you back makes it feel more intense. The healing the pig does makes you want to be more aggressive.

3 minutes ago, Nogard78 said:

Toadstool is a really fun boss (for me) even if a lot of people say otherwise. Just get a few glass axes, a ice staff or/and pan flute and a good weapon, 1 morning star i winter/spring will be enough, you can even use hambat with enough speed boosta to not spoil it. Perhaps bring one weather pain if you a tree spawn inside a spore cloud.

But if changing anything about the boss, the tree count would be best. 

I think it is really fun in the group. The trees are too much solo and ruin the fun of it.

[Fufuji]

19 hours ago, Nogard78 said:

Crab King claws or their health. Doing him solo(no ice staff cheese) is quite the task. Or make it so that when defeated CK gets demaged a bit.

The reason his Claws have such incredible HP and atk is that when the BETA ended, Klei secretly boosted the Claws' atk by a huge amount of 100%, and later enhanced the effects of Green Gems, effectively buffing Claws by 50 HP. CK literally received no nerf in and after BETA. It's all buffs. 

[Cheggf]

13 hours ago, Lardee said:

Is using weatherpains to quickly destroy trees considered cheese?  I've never heard this opinion before.  IMO, it's not cheese since you're using the weapon as it was intended to be used by the developers.  And that's only one part of the boss fight.

For some reason a lot of people think that literally anything except swinging a weapon is cheese. I've seen people say that using ice staves on the larvae (which have a sprite for being frozen, and uniquely die upon thawing) is cheese, using the pan flute on enraged Dragonfly is cheese, using the weatherpain on AFW/CK/TS is cheese, using the lazy explorer to teleport out of AFW's bone cage is cheese. They don't see the difference between using items explicitly made to do things doing things they were explicitly made for, and exploiting things like AI quirks to entirely remove mechanics of the fight.

[Capybara007]

Even if its cheese who cares

[Jakepeng99]

31 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

For some reason a lot of people think that literally anything except swinging a weapon is cheese. I've seen people say that using ice staves on the larvae (which have a sprite for being frozen, and uniquely die upon thawing) is cheese, using the pan flute on enraged Dragonfly is cheese, using the weatherpain on AFW/CK/TS is cheese, using the lazy explorer to teleport out of AFW's bone cage is cheese. They don't see the difference between using items explicitly made to do things doing things they were explicitly made for, and exploiting things like AI quirks to entirely remove mechanics of the fight.

I had someone say before that using followers was cheese for bossess... like really? Is Webber befriending spiders a bug?

 

I consider cheese to be using things like flingos to freeze bosses, or doing things that are clearly an exploit, or removes the challenge of the fight completly, like lure plants and Walter snipping over inpassable edges.

[bloopah]

10 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Nigtmare were pig is also S teir boss. Probably the best one in the franchise, it is fun and rewarding to fight. The best comparisson to it is nightmare king grimm (Ignoring difficulty). It is a fun and consistent fight that always keeps you on your toes, it is so satisfying to get some extra hits on them during the phase you are meant to be focused on dodging their attacks. The boss talking, and knocking you back makes it feel more intense. The healing the pig does makes you want to be more aggressive.

I was talking about Crab King when I said that. Nightmare Werepig is a great boss, but he's a boss that can be beaten at any time between entering the Ruins and killing the Ancient Fuelweaver in the Shadow questline, unlike Crab King which has to be beaten in order to access the final boss of the Lunar questline.

[Mike23Ua]

9 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I had someone say before that using followers was cheese for bossess... like really? Is Webber befriending spiders a bug?

 

I consider cheese to be using things like flingos to freeze bosses, or doing things that are clearly an exploit, or removes the challenge of the fight completly, like lure plants and Walter snipping over inpassable edges.

Have you ever considered that if the boss has an animation for freezing then maybe Klei intended for you to use the item?

They don’t just code those animations into the game for nothing.. and it’s not a “Bug” that they have those animations either.

It’s like the Palm Trees from solo DS adventures mode, Klei devs said they were a bug and removed them, yet they very specifically had snow animations that covered them in winter.

Usually if the tree was actually bugged, it wouldn’t even register being covered in snow (see some of the newer trees/plant types Klei added to dst that had to later have snow animations added)

before I turn this into a TL:DR, Freezing a boss in place with a Ice Flingo Machine after hitting them with a Firestaff isn’t a bug, it’s a to be quite honest about it: Clever use of the tools the game gives you.

HOWEVER Building a bunch of statues to block a bosses movement, is very very very much Cheese..

[gamehun20]

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Freezing a boss in place with a Ice Flingo Machine

Well it is because ice flingos can't target bosses normally and you need to take advantage of how flingos put out fire also it's not called a bug it's called a cheese

[Evelo]

Toadstool, Crab King, Queen Bee, Fuelweaver, CC hp (mechanics are fine solo).

[Gi-Go]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:59 PM, Lardee said:

They are very possible to solo without weatherpains, it just requires different strategies, different skill, and different equipment.  Plenty of different methods, just not as straightforward as weatherpains. For example:

 

This boss is so freaking lame o my God. When is he getting a rework. I died of boredom just watching this

[Gashzer]

On 8/26/2023 at 8:59 PM, Lardee said:

They are very possible to solo without weatherpains, it just requires different strategies, different skill, and different equipment.  Plenty of different methods, just not as straightforward as weatherpains. For example:

 

If you need to bug out pathfinding of a boss by getting it stuck to kill it. Then that boss needs a rework like ancient guardian. Dfly and toadstool could do with reworks as both fights incentivize players to use bugs/pathfinding exploits. 

The bugs are too easy to pull off as well making it worse.

[Brago-sama]

ya'll heard it here folks, luring a boss by having it follow you to a favorable positiion is a bug lol. He still attacks, he still summons trees. What is the problem here

Ill remember to turn my brain fully off next time i fight a boss. Lets make a petition klei to have it stand completely still while we're at it. Submit the bug report lol

[Gashzer]

23 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

ya'll heard it here folks, luring a boss by having it follow you to a favorable positiion is a bug lol. He still attacks, he still summons trees. What is the problem here

Ill remember to turn my brain fully off next time i fight a boss. Lets make a petition klei to have it stand completely still while we're at it. Submit the bug report lol

Ya'll heard it here folks. Old ancient guardian didn't need a rework because getting it stuck between a grave an a pillar is just a "favorable position".  

[Brago-sama]

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Ya'll heard it here folks. Old ancient guardian didn't need a rework because getting it stuck between a grave an a pillar is just a "favorable position".  

He couldnt attack you

Toadstool still can. Big difference. Again, what is the problem here

[Gashzer]

3 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

He couldnt attack you

Toadstill still can. Big difference. Again, what is the probelem here

Toadstool bugs out an stops attacking you, not forever but for a long period of time making it by far the main strat for fighting him. If buggy gameplay becomes the primary strat for fighting bosses then a rework is needed, same as ancient guardian. 

Even if we disagree that this is a bug or not. Both dfly and toadstool are not super fun fights and need reworked regardless. Dfly 99% just skip her larve mechanic using wall cheese so thats like half the fight that needs reworked. Toadstool is too tedious, and his fight loop isn't enjoyable so much so that Lardee needed to abuse a pathfinding bug to reasonably kill him.

[Brago-sama]

19 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Toadstool bugs out an stops attacking you, not forever but for a long period of time making it by far the main strat for fighting him

Using the knowledge that he doesnt spawn trees until he reaches the center by using his arena against him isnt a bug imo. He still does everything toadstool can do, just slower, a reward for good positioning, unlike dragonflys Lavae doing nothing or ancient gaurdian being stunlocked to death

I consider this the same as fuelweavers/Klauses cage/Thermal magic not spawning if youre far when he casts.  Odd looking behavior that likly wasnt directly thought of when the fight was created but most likely is accepted as a clever use of mechanics and simply rewards player knowledge/timing

 

[Gashzer]

Just now, Brago-sama said:

Using the knowledge that he doesnt spawn trees until he reaches the center by using his arena against him isnt a bug imo. He still does everything toadstool can do, just slower, a reward for good positioning, unlike dragonflys Lavae doing nothing or ancient gaurdian being stunlocked to death

I consider this the same as fuelweavers/Klauses cage/Thermal magic not spawning if youre far when he casts.  Odd looking behavior that likly wasnt directly thought of when the fight was created but is most likely is accepted as a clever use of mechanics and simply rewards player knowledge/timing,

 

Well fair points tbh, I can see where you are coming from now.

I believe someone said when you sleep or freeze toadstool his mushtree timer is still ticking down? If they made it so if u sleep him, it pauses his mushtree move timer and if it took longer for him to spawn all his trees giving more time to cut them down.

Small nerfs like this would go along way to reduce the tediousness of the fight without needing a full rework or needing to introduce boss scaling. I do still think dfly is the boss that needs a full rework the most (even more than crab king who i find is ok to kill, i treat him as a "use followers for an easy kill" boss in the same boat as bee queen as bunnymen help alot in both fights.)

[Left 4 Sharkb8]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:27 PM, bloopah said:

The most optimal equipment as in cheese methods for not having to deal with the boss part of the... boss.

Yeah, if you have to completely avoid the mechanics of a boss to make the fight less frustrating then I don't like said boss. And the video you showed has the guy fighting Toadstool for 20 minutes. I would rather play the actual game to obtain Weather Pains or even Fire Staffs and do the fight like the rest of the playerbase than wrestle with him as Woodie for 2.5 in-game days.

And I don't really get why a lot of forumites latch onto the mentality that the raid bosses should stay as being pains in the ass unless in a group. If, out of all of the damage sponges in the game, only a single one is worth fighting without a cheese method, and it's the boss at the end of a questline that takes at least a year minimum for the average solo player to complete and even has what the playerbase collectively agrees is the worst boss in Don't Starve history as a dependency, then there definetly needs to be change.

I am honestly surprised that this really even needs to be said. I really don't understand that a boss fight shouldn't be doable without tons of resources (or other players who can at least not die every 2 seconds, or even just show up to said fight), let alone one that is tedious and unfun. Even IF I didn't need tons of Weather Pains, Ice Staves, Pan Flutes, etc for bosses like Toadstool, Crab King, and Bee Queen, they would still take ages and not be very engaging or fun. And even after that, I'm still ignoring the fact that Crab King and Toadstool have TERRIBLE drops! The only reason I ever fight Crab King is literally because he's required for a ton of actually fun and important content, not because he has good rewards or a fun fight. They're unengaging boss fights with terrible rewards and a ton of prep needed, but on top of that, they're also massive health sponges when done solo, which just makes everything that much worse when you don't play a character with damage modifiers.

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, Left 4 Sharkbai said:

I am honestly surprised that this really even needs to be said. I really don't understand that a boss fight shouldn't be doable without tons of resources (or other players who can at least not die every 2 seconds, or even just show up to said fight), let alone one that is tedious and unfun. Even IF I didn't need tons of Weather Pains, Ice Staves, Pan Flutes, etc for bosses like Toadstool, Crab King, and Bee Queen, they would still take ages and not be very engaging or fun. And even after that, I'm still ignoring the fact that Crab King and Toadstool have TERRIBLE drops! The only reason I ever fight Crab King is literally because he's required for a ton of actually fun and important content, not because he has good rewards or a fun fight. They're unengaging boss fights with terrible rewards and a ton of prep needed, but on top of that, they're also massive health sponges when done solo, which just makes everything that much worse when you don't play a character with damage modifiers.

I don't know why people keep complaining that they dislike Toadstool's fight and also dislike that he has bad drops. Isn't it good that he has bad drops and the only reason to fight him is because you like it? Do you want him to get good drops so you feel compelled to do the fight that you hate, and can no longer just ignore him?