I am Deeply confused about Woodies Skill Tree..

[Mike23Ua]

Okay so long story short after obtaining all of Wilson & Wolfgang’s Insight and investing them into their skill Trees as I saw fit to do so..

Woodie feels how do put this.. “Ripped Off”

Like I Mean WHY Do I need to invest 1 Skill point into first unlocking the ability to craft items using Lucy & then invest 2 additional skill points in unlocking his Cane & Hardwood Hat perks?

I literally JUST COMPLETED the Wolfgang skill tree not but about a few hours ago and with 1 Insight Wolfgang gains access to 3 brand new types of Dumbells (Thermal, Fire, Ice) that *GASP* do not each need additional Skill Point investments to unlock.

and don’t even get me started on the “% Chance to finish a chopping/mining task instantly while in Mighty mode” I’m convinced that Wolfgang is now a Better Wood Harvester than Woodie Himself 

Do Note that so far I only have 3 skill points invested into Lucy Crafts so it remains to be seen if once I obtain all 15 of Woodies perks if he will still feel Underwhelming compared to Wolfgang.

But as it stands Right NOW… I’m deeply confused why Wolfgang gets Instant access to 3 additional crafts with ONE Skill Point, While Woodie has to invest 3 Skill Points just to obtain 2 additional Crafts??????

Does Klei love Wolfgang & Hate Woodie or something?

My suggestion is to “Restructure” either Wolfgang’s tree (remove some of 10% boosts in mighty or planar and just let it jump from 110% to 140% or something… and make his extra Dumbell crafts each require a Skill point investment to craft just like Woodies) 
 

OR remove the (in my opinion silly & unfair..) need to invest 3 skill points to unlock Lucy’s perks.. and maybe “Restructure” this skill tree to have something else added to it.. Maybe a new Wereform power such as Beaver being able to swim & ferry other players on his shoulders while he does so 

(the Wendy main in me thinks this would be a cute interaction… considering her Quote for Werebeaver..)

Thank You, I just wanted to bring this to your awareness and ask if it’s fair.

 

[Dracian]

Not to mention that those crafts lose their interest once you have access to Walking Canes and a study supply of Pig Skin... Sure, being able to craft a wooden helmet on the run is nice, but does that really need a full skill point ? I don't think so.

[gamehun20]

5 minutes ago, Dracian said:

Pig Skin

Does a football helmet protect from cave ins without damaging the player?

[mkemal23]

32 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Okay so long story short after obtaining all of Wilson & Wolfgang’s Insight and investing them into their skill Trees as I saw fit to do so..

Woodie feels how do put this.. “Ripped Off”

Like I Mean WHY Do I need to invest 1 Skill point into first unlocking the ability to craft items using Lucy & then invest 2 additional skill points in unlocking his Cane & Hardwood Hat perks?

I literally JUST COMPLETED the Wolfgang skill tree not but about a few hours ago and with 1 Insight Wolfgang gains access to 3 brand new types of Dumbells (Thermal, Fire, Ice) that *GASP* do not each need additional Skill Point investments to unlock.

and don’t even get me started on the “% Chance to finish a chopping/mining task instantly while in Mighty mode” I’m convinced that Wolfgang is now a Better Wood Harvester than Woodie Himself 

Do Note that so far I only have 3 skill points invested into Lucy Crafts so it remains to be seen if once I obtain all 15 of Woodies perks if he will still feel Underwhelming compared to Wolfgang.

But as it stands Right NOW… I’m deeply confused why Wolfgang gets Instant access to 3 additional crafts with ONE Skill Point, While Woodie has to invest 3 Skill Points just to obtain 2 additional Crafts??????

Does Klei love Wolfgang & Hate Woodie or something? 

One extreme example of this is Wormwood's bramble husk specialist and Wilson's torch toss ability. Both skills makes you give up multiple insight points to reach them. However, Wormwood simply gains much more than Wilson.

This is because K̶l̶e̶i̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ W̶i̶l̶s̶o̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ everybody has a different playstyle and powers.

Yes, Woodie has to give up 3 skill points to unlock 3 crafts, while Wolfgang only needs 1 skill point to unlock 3 crafts But what about rest of the skills? Wolfgang's skill tree simply can not match Woodie's skill tree when it comes to amount of utility given to player. Not only that, I still think that Woodie's craftables are much better because they can be mass produced. It is understandable why klei locked the crafts behind 3 insight points.

[Toda9]

58 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

But what about rest of the skills? Wolfgang's skill tree simply can not match Woodie's skill tree when it comes to amount of utility given to player.

If you play Webber or Wurt , Wolfgang coach = Ultimate army (+100% dmg for all spider / merm).

[Gashzer]

Woodie skill tree is 100000% more fun even if wolfgang is better for a salty tryhard min-maxer. The only part of woodies skill tree im disappointed with is the quick pick skills not being very quick... they take up 3 whole skill points for next to nothing.

[Mysterious box]

7 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

Yes, Woodie has to give up 3 skill points to unlock 3 crafts, while Wolfgang only needs 1 skill point to unlock 3 crafts But what about rest of the skills? Wolfgang's skill tree simply can not match Woodie's skill tree when it comes to amount of utility given to player. Not only that, I still think that Woodie's craftables are much better because they can be mass produced. It is understandable why klei locked the crafts behind 3 insight points.

Honestly something that's always bugged me about this is that it's not factoring in the fact the entire curse portion of Woodie's skill tree is a bad skill fix sold to you with tons of skill points. His were form system is bad until you invest a ton of skill points into it whereas Wormwood and Wolfgang are already good before you even start the skill tree. When people talk about how strong Woodie is they're mainly just looking at the moose and the tree guard idols which are strong sure but it feels bad that more than half his skill point allocation is for completely necessary skills massively limiting your skill choices.

I'm sure some people will say well it's not like you need to pick the wereform fixes but if you don't your stuck with a bad fighting form, a bad gathering form, and a bad traversal form outside of island scouting.

I understand the hp regen and pound ability of the moose being sold as skills but the other two should have been base kit. As for the other two forms goose's entire skill tree except the warp should have been base kit and everything but the beavers ground slam should have been base kit.

The way kiel handled it however was if Wormwood's bramble armor had it's old defense value but also didn't have the retaliation effect. 1 skill point to raise it to 80% 1 skill point to get the retaliating effect. 1 skill point to make it not harm followers. Then finally 1 skill point to make them shoot when your attacking.

I wouldn't even be as annoyed on that front if the were form final abilities didn't lock you out of the other ones. While I've been playing on servers I've been checking other people's builds almost every Woodie player goes for the full moose tree because combat is obviously the most relevant of the forms with only 2 times did I see someone pick beaver and never did I see someone pick goose. I know this choice is mostly irrelevant due to the celestial portal but if that's the case why lock them in the first place it's not a alignment choice and they aren't built equal in terms of value.

I'm not even a Woodie main so I'm kind of surprised more Woodie mains aren't talking about this but again it's probably overlooked due to all the moose and tree guard op stuff.

6 hours ago, Toda9 said:

If you play Webber or Wurt , Wolfgang coach = Ultimate army (+100% dmg for all spider / merm).

It's honestly horrifying with Wurt 30 merm guards equate to 3k damage per attack rotation.

[Maxil20]

I feel the reason it takes 3 skill points is the diffrence in usefulness between his and Wolf's. Wolf's dumbell perk might unlock 3 new dumbells, but they don't necessarily need to be crafted at all, and are mainly to provide different niche cases where they can shine. All of Woodie's carve crafts on the other hand are much more usable and are easy to craft in bulk and give to the team. The walking stick in particular is an excellent substitute for a cane, especially in public servers where getting canes might be tricky if the world only has one mactusk. The helmet is a nice football helm/wig helm alternative with the niche of completely protecting you from quakes, and you're basically always going to use Woodie's board craft if you have the skill for it.

As for wereforms, I personally like the idea of only allowing you to master one perk at the cost of the other 2. It allows for 2 Woodie's on a server to have completely different specialties from the other. While the ""Ideal"" wereform is Weremoose, I personally like going Werebeaver a lot early on, and even my friend likes the silly randomness of the goose flight allowing you to potentially find islands/key areas much earlier then most survivors would even have a chance of finding. It allows for unique niches, and I'm personally a fan of that.

[Gashzer]

55 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly something that's always bugged me about this is that it's not factoring in the fact the entire curse portion of Woodie's skill tree is a bad skill fix sold to you with tons of skill points. His were form system is bad until you invest a ton of skill points into it whereas Wormwood and Wolfgang are already good before you even start the skill tree. When people talk about how strong Woodie is they're mainly just looking at the moose and the tree guard idols which are strong sure but it feels bad that more than half his skill point allocation is for completely necessary skills massively limiting your skill choices.

I'm sure some people will say well it's not like you need to pick the wereform fixes but if you don't your stuck with a bad fighting form, a bad gathering form, and a bad traversal form outside of island scouting.

I understand the hp regen and pound ability of the moose being sold as skills but the other two should have been base kit. As for the other two forms goose's entire skill tree except the warp should have been base kit and everything but the beavers ground slam should have been base kit.

The way kiel handled it however was if Wormwood's bramble armor had it's old defense value but also didn't have the retaliation effect. 1 skill point to raise it to 80% 1 skill point to get the retaliating effect. 1 skill point to make it not harm followers. Then finally 1 skill point to make them shoot when your attacking.

I wouldn't even be as annoyed on that front if the were form final abilities didn't lock you out of the other ones. While I've been playing on servers I've been checking other people's builds almost every Woodie player goes for the full moose tree because combat is obviously the most relevant of the forms with only 2 times did I see someone pick beaver and never did I see someone pick goose. I know this choice is mostly irrelevant due to the celestial portal but if that's the case why lock them in the first place it's not a alignment choice and they aren't built equal in terms of value.

I'm not even a Woodie main so I'm kind of surprised more Woodie mains aren't talking about this but again it's probably overlooked due to all the moose and tree guard op stuff.

It's honestly horrifying with Wurt 30 merm guards equate to 3k damage per attack rotation.

The skill tree isnt a fix for woodie at all. It has enhanced him alot but Woodies wereforms have always been very cost effective. Moose wrecked armies of nightmare beaks in the ruins before the skill tree like no other character can. Moose was great at killing some bosses like Klaus even before the skill tree. Moose's AoE charge was and is still very powerful. Beaver was great if you didnt want to be bothered by treeguards and goose was fantastic at exploring. All forms are cheap as chips to access hence them dropping off in usefulness lategame was 100% fine.

I actually think the moose's mastery is abit of a waste. So what you have abit extra dps? Big woop! You charge attack most basic mobs anyway. Moose's 3 regular skills are all far more impactful in changing the gameplay feel and effectiveness of the moose.

The goose and beaver mastery skills are more fun, unique and useful. The reason why people all rush to moose is because streamers and youtubers say its the best.  The goose waterproof and dodge are meh but are definitely worth it for the flight.

[mkemal23]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly something that's always bugged me about this is that it's not factoring in the fact the entire curse portion of Woodie's skill tree is a bad skill fix sold to you with tons of skill points. His were form system is bad until you invest a ton of skill points into it whereas Wormwood and Wolfgang are already good before you even start the skill tree. When people talk about how strong Woodie is they're mainly just looking at the moose and the tree guard idols which are strong sure but it feels bad that more than half his skill point allocation is for completely necessary skills massively limiting your skill choices.

This is a fair statement. However I don't get why this is a issue. Wolfgang was already a great character before, but planar entity protection made his strongest perk useless. So, klei made a much simple, stat-boosting skill tree that would solve this issue. 

Wormwood was already a good farming character with a really harsh and unique combat downside. So, klei (and the people in forums) made his skill tree focus both on farming and fighting strategies.

And Woodie, his forms were cheap way to fight, gather, and explore. However some of his downsides were too harsh. So, klei made a skill tree that removes his downsides.

 O̶̶̶h̶̶̶,̶̶̶ ̶̶̶a̶̶̶n̶̶̶d̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶r̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶a̶̶̶l̶̶̶s̶̶̶o̶̶̶ ̶̶̶W̶̶̶i̶̶̶l̶̶̶s̶̶̶o̶̶̶n̶̶̶.̶̶̶ ̶̶̶A̶̶̶s̶̶̶i̶̶̶d̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶f̶̶̶r̶̶̶o̶̶̶m̶̶̶ ̶h̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶b̶̶̶e̶̶̶a̶̶̶r̶̶̶d̶̶̶ ̶̶̶s̶̶̶k̶̶̶i̶̶̶l̶̶̶l̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶r̶̶̶e̶̶̶e̶̶̶,̶̶̶ ̶̶̶w̶̶̶h̶̶̶o̶̶̶l̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶i̶̶̶n̶̶̶g̶̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶a̶̶̶ ̶c̶̶̶o̶̶̶m̶̶̶p̶̶̶l̶̶̶e̶̶̶t̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶d̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶s̶̶̶a̶̶̶p̶̶̶o̶̶̶i̶̶̶n̶̶̶t̶̶̶m̶̶̶e̶̶̶n̶̶̶t̶̶̶.̶̶̶ ̶̶̶H̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶s̶̶̶k̶̶̶i̶̶̶l̶̶̶l̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶r̶̶̶e̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶j̶̶̶u̶̶̶s̶̶̶t̶̶̶ ̶̶̶a̶̶̶ ̶̶̶p̶̶̶r̶̶̶o̶̶̶t̶̶̶o̶̶̶t̶̶̶y̶̶̶p̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶f̶̶̶o̶̶̶r̶̶̶ ̶̶̶o̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶r̶̶̶ ̶̶̶c̶̶̶h̶̶̶a̶̶̶r̶̶̶a̶̶̶c̶̶̶t̶̶̶e̶̶̶r̶̶̶s̶̶̶.̶̶̶ ̶

What I'm saying is, every skill tree is unique when it comes to how they make a character strong. Some fix spesific issues with a character, some just removes their downside to show characters full potential, and others simply add more gameplay synergies to the character. A̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶l̶e̶t̶s̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶u̶p̶g̶r̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶s̶t̶ u̶s̶e̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶s̶o̶u̶r̶c̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶.̶

[Well-met]

9 hours ago, gamehun20 said:

Does a football helmet protect from cave ins without damaging the player?

wasd

[HowlVoid]

8 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

One extreme example of this is Wormwood's bramble husk specialist and Wilson's torch toss ability. Both skills makes you give up multiple insight points to reach them. However, Wormwood simply gains much more than Wilson.

This is because K̶l̶e̶i̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ W̶i̶l̶s̶o̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ everybody has a different playstyle and powers.

I think that's more a symptom of the foundation that makes up those characters than the skill trees themselves.

We wormwood mains have knows for years what the husk was missing because we are in tune with his kit. Wilson doesn't have much of a kit besides a beard and beard hair.

I think it's so weird that Wes got a proper rework and Wilson didn't. I think before Wilson mains ask for a better skill tree they should ask for an actual rework first. 

Wilson needs a proper foundation geared towards DST.

[Catuna_]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Okay so long story short after obtaining all of Wilson & Wolfgang’s Insight and investing them into their skill Trees as I saw fit to do so..

Woodie feels how do put this.. “Ripped Off”

Like I Mean WHY Do I need to invest 1 Skill point into first unlocking the ability to craft items using Lucy & then invest 2 additional skill points in unlocking his Cane & Hardwood Hat perks?

I literally JUST COMPLETED the Wolfgang skill tree not but about a few hours ago and with 1 Insight Wolfgang gains access to 3 brand new types of Dumbells (Thermal, Fire, Ice) that *GASP* do not each need additional Skill Point investments to unlock.

and don’t even get me started on the “% Chance to finish a chopping/mining task instantly while in Mighty mode” I’m convinced that Wolfgang is now a Better Wood Harvester than Woodie Himself 

Do Note that so far I only have 3 skill points invested into Lucy Crafts so it remains to be seen if once I obtain all 15 of Woodies perks if he will still feel Underwhelming compared to Wolfgang.

But as it stands Right NOW… I’m deeply confused why Wolfgang gets Instant access to 3 additional crafts with ONE Skill Point, While Woodie has to invest 3 Skill Points just to obtain 2 additional Crafts??????

Does Klei love Wolfgang & Hate Woodie or something?

My suggestion is to “Restructure” either Wolfgang’s tree (remove some of 10% boosts in mighty or planar and just let it jump from 110% to 140% or something… and make his extra Dumbell crafts each require a Skill point investment to craft just like Woodies) 
 

OR remove the (in my opinion silly & unfair..) need to invest 3 skill points to unlock Lucy’s perks.. and maybe “Restructure” this skill tree to have something else added to it.. Maybe a new Wereform power such as Beaver being able to swim & ferry other players on his shoulders while he does so 

(the Wendy main in me thinks this would be a cute interaction… considering her Quote for Werebeaver..)

Thank You, I just wanted to bring this to your awareness and ask if it’s fair.

 

I don't understand what the issue is here... Wolfgang's crafts are way less useful than Woodie's. The firebell and icebell quite literally require Thulecite which makes them expensive for what they actually are, ESPECIALLY the Firebell. As for the Thermbell, it being the equivalent of a dumbell thermal stone is underwhelming too as the dumbell is quite terrible and using it to maintain/gain mightiness will wear down its durability too. Woodie's crafts on the other hand include cheaper boards which really adds up on saving logs when you're mass crafting them, as you get an extra from each 4. The walking stick is an incredible tool because it's not survivor exclusive and gives you +15% speed, most characters don't have day 1 speed and Woodie being able to grant them and himself that advantage is really incredible. The hardwood hat is less-so because of the fact that 70% damage protection means you take 50% more damage than if you were wearing a Football helmet, and the Eyemask exists, but it being as cheap as it is makes it an excellent utility for mass producing armor for follower characters, and you can never go wrong with such cheap armor... Or you could just not invest in it, your choice.

The notion that "KLEI LIKES THIS CHARACTER AND HATES THE OTHER" genuinely leaves me dumbfounded because it feels like you're going out of your way to just find something to complain about ignoring the fact that Woodie gets to pick out incredible boosts in literally every part of his kit as he pleases. He's become the jack of all trades that was originally intended and although Weremoose mastery is regarded as the best by many people Weregoose and especially Werebeaver masteries are more than usable and are both underrated in my opinion, and the need for Weremoose mastery is lower when you're on a server with other people. Your suggestion also would not fit as it means that Werebeaver would outclass Weregoose in the scenario where it's most useful. That's not a good idea.

Woodie's tree does NOT need to be restructured, Wolfgang's doesn't either. I don't mind spending an extra 2 points on cheaper boards and The walking stick. I don't understand why it's such a bother to you.

[mkemal23]

36 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I think that's more a symptom of the foundation that makes up those characters than the skill trees themselves.

Yes, I agree.

36 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

We wormwood mains have knows for years what the husk was missing because we are in tune with his kit. Wilson doesn't have much of a kit besides a beard and beard hair.

My example was to show that different skill trees can have diffrent ways to buff players. I have no hate for bramble husk/trap specialist. I'm happy that Wormwood players finally have proper combat abilities. I just wish that Wilson's torch tree could give us something intersting for giving up 7 insight points.

Also, I Wish Wilson also had an item to at least complain about. But oh well.

40 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I think it's so weird that Wes got a proper rework and Wilson didn't. 

Yeah. Wilson is literally more of a joke character than the actual clown in the game. However, he still didn't got his Archalic skin. I'm hoping that he will get a actual rework when all the skill trees are finished.

47 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I think before Wilson mains ask for a better skill tree they should ask for an actual rework first.

We are trying our best, my friend. But there is simply too little amount of actual Wilson players. I'm aware that the reason behind his bad skill tree is the fact that he actually doesn't have theme or gameplay value.

52 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

 Wilson needs a proper foundation geared towards DST.

Yes, I compelety agree.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, mkemal23 said:

And Woodie, his forms were cheap way to fight, gather, and explore. However some of his downsides were too harsh. So, klei made a skill tree that removes his downsides.

But they weren't all the forms harmed you just for using them meaning just the very act of using them meant you had to spend more resources to fight, harvest, and travel. Goose doesn't let you pick anything up and wasn't very fast making it worse in all situations involving speed unless you count it's ability to run on water which was a ability the community had to pitch to salvage the form. That's 20 hp+hp lost until you can control yourself enough to eat something, 20 sanity, and all your hunger to move abit faster.

Moose not only lost the above stats but was slower than the default player meaning that even in the most ideal of scenarios your not only doing less damage than base Woodie but you''ve always taken more damage before even factoring in what damage you might have taken in combat while also being far more likely to be hit than in your regular state.

Then there's the beaver what's stopping Woodie from just giving the 3 meats needed to use the idol to pigs and chopping alongside them? Also most people seem to see the beaver not being able to spawn tree guards as a downside rather than a upside. Though with the addition of the tree guard idols that's probably changed abit on that perception.

They all failed at their roles before the skill tree were they fun to use? Yes I've said so many times in the past were they ever actually useful beyond that no.

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Moose was great at killing some bosses like Klaus even before the skill tree.

He was capable of killing some bosses before skill tree he was never good at it there's a difference. His charge attack was his only legitimate selling point and even it had it's faults that had to be fixed via the skill tree.

 

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

I actually think the moose's mastery is abit of a waste. So what you have abit extra dps? Big woop! You charge attack most basic mobs anyway. Moose's 3 regular skills are all far more impactful in changing the gameplay feel and effectiveness of the moose.

It makes a massive difference in fights with smaller hordes, high hp mobs, and bosses which is most of the game because combat is most of the game while on the flipside...

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

The goose and beaver mastery skills are more fun, unique and useful. The reason why people all rush to moose is because streamers and youtubers say its the best.  The goose waterproof and dodge are meh but are definitely worth it for the flight.

The problem is they aren't the beaver tail slap is only useful in controlled farms but even then that's only if your spamming multiple idols because due to the wereness drain per slap you'll actually chop far more trees per idol not using the slap which honestly makes me wonder why it has a wereness drain to begin with. Naturally there isn't a big cluster of things to destroy often so outside of that the beaver's slap becomes extremely situational.

As for flight there's not a single reason to use it after you've found moon quay and the lunar island with the speed boost the goose already gets around the map really fast so odds are you'll be able to run where your going before rng ever gets you there.

Don't get me wrong both are fun abilities but they just don't come close to the moose's final ability in terms of day to day usefulness. They're fun gimmicks you'd use occasionally not something you should be locked into.

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

The reason why people all rush to moose is because streamers and youtubers say its the best.  The goose waterproof and dodge are meh but are definitely worth it for the flight.

I'm more than willing to go against opinions formed by streamers and youtubers like a specific one saying Walter is "perk soup" and everyone else bandwagoning the idea without considering how silly that is but sometimes a spade is a spade there's a very clear imbalance in what each final abilities offers not to mention the lesser two of the three draining your meter faster just for using them.

[Catuna_]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

I think that's more a symptom of the foundation that makes up those characters than the skill trees themselves.

We wormwood mains have knows for years what the husk was missing because we are in tune with his kit. Wilson doesn't have much of a kit besides a beard and beard hair.

I think it's so weird that Wes got a proper rework and Wilson didn't. I think before Wilson mains ask for a better skill tree they should ask for an actual rework first. 

Wilson needs a proper foundation geared towards DST.

I feel like this isn't true, Wilson's foundation has been being the "no downsides character" being the most straightforward experience for DST. I think it's important to understand that his skill tree is the most geared towards new players as they tend to gravitate to him or Webber for some reason to get familiar with the game. The consequences of this is that his perks are also basic, but in my opinion fit with his character. I feel like the tree was intended to keep Wilson the default character, just offering really nice upsides that feel convenient but aren't game changers. Yes, the torch skill tree is nowhere near as good as a lantern but new players probably never get their hands on one often enough which means that they'd benefit from it. Yes, not all the transmutation skills are useful. But beard storage, Transmutation , Transmute ore 2 & 3, Transmute Icky 1 & 3, are all convenient perks that add enough to the established default character. The lunar affinity skills feel more like they try to reward those experienced that play Wilson, +10% damage and -10% damage taken is a decent perk imo and the crafts are okay-ish. I want to say that in my opinion it's important to understand what the intended identity of the character you're playing is before you ask stuff for them. So in the context of Wilson, he's supposed to stay basic. And I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that.

Wes's rework nerfed his stats: halved his sanity, made him starve faster. Wes's rework made him work slower only compensates in speedy balloon which I feel like makes him a lot worse in comparison by the time winter rolls around. He's intended to be the joke/challenge character, and I feel like it'd be silly if I were to want him to be re-reworked again because I want him to match other characters' power level (For context I play him a lot), It's just not a reasonable thing to expect. Comparing his rework to Wilson's when he only got downgrade after downgrade with minor new toys that can't compensate is a bit weird to me.

[mkemal23]

54 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

But they weren't all the forms harmed you just for using them meaning just the very act of using them meant you had to spend more resources to fight, harvest, and travel. Goose doesn't let you pick anything up and wasn't very fast making it worse in all situations involving speed unless you count it's ability to run on water which was a ability the community had to pitch to salvage the form. That's 20 hp+hp lost until you can control yourself enough to eat something, 20 sanity, and all your hunger to move abit faster.

Moose not only lost the above stats but was slower than the default player meaning that even in the most ideal of scenarios your not only doing less damage than base Woodie but you''ve always taken more damage before even factoring in what damage you might have taken in combat while also being far more likely to be hit than in your regular state.

I probably could have worded my previous post better, sorry for that. 

What I'm trying to say is that if you ignore the upsides the wereforms already gave you and think them just a worse version of the player, then the whole skill tree would feel meaningless to you. "Klei just created a problem and wasted a skill tree to fix them."

Moose already gave you a %90 damage reduction and good amount of damage. However, Moose can't use any inventory items and when you combine this with his slower movement speed and idol damage penalty, all these downsides made players not use the moose for most of the time.

His new skill tree fixes most of these issues so you can enjoy the remaning upsides.

54 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Then there's the beaver what's stopping Woodie from just giving the 3 meats needed to use the idol to pigs and chopping alongside them? Also most people seem to see the beaver not being able to spawn tree guards as a downside rather than a upside. Though with the addition of the tree guard idols that's probably changed abit on that perception.

I'm- I- I do not know how to answer this.

You are playing Woodie. You have Lucy and Beaver. Yet, Instead of making more idols, you waste your precious monster meat to pigman? The worst wood choppers in the game? I- I'm not on this power level. I will go back to playing Wilson and throwing torches.

[Antynomity]

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Wilson needs a proper foundation geared towards DST.

This, mostly because he's not the starter character and never was in DST, you're not forced to play with him and new players will only play him if they want to (which won't last long because there's a lot of characters in the game and I know from experience that they do like to experiment) or when their veteran friends force them to.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

I'm- I- I do not know how to answer this.

You are playing Woodie. You have Lucy and Beaver. Yet, Instead of making more idols, you waste your precious monster meat to pigman? The worst wood choppers in the game? I- I'm not on this power level. I go back to playing Wilson and throwing torches.

The key thing to consider is if Woodie is using Lucy alongside the pigs he'll finish faster than the beaver my comparison was assuming you were using Lucy instead also his follower bonus loyalty perk is equally a part of his kit as much as the beaver. that being said I was more so talking against the argument of cheapness for example I often say while people consider the moose to be very cheap it's only in the context that you assume weapons and armor are expensive. A moose idol costs 2 grass and 3 monster meat which is pretty cheap but for 4 monster meat you can walk to a pig make it a were pig and get a hambat that lasts much longer than that idol. The beaver falls under the same considerations with Lucy and the pigs with no additional stat losses.

13 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

I probably could have worded my previous post better, sorry for that. 

What I'm trying to say is that if you ignore the upsides the wereforms already gave you and think them just a worse version of the player, then the whole skill tree would feel meaningless to you. "Klei just created a problem and wasted a skill tree to fix them."

Moose already gave you a %90 damage reduction and good amount of damage. However, Moose can't use any invertory items and when you combine this with his slower movement speed and idol damage penalty, all these downsides made players not use the moose for most of the time.

His new skill tree fixes most of these issues so you can enjoy the remaning upsides.

While I get what your saying it wasn't even a case of ignoring the upsides 90% damage reduction needs that latter context to matter and damage wise it was weaker than a hambat which you only needed 1 more monster meat to make by the time you could have made the idol. The surrounding factors play the biggest role in whether what you get is worth it or not. The skill tree definitely fixed the issues of the form but before the skill tree to give a extremely exaggerated example it's like having 99% damage reduction with 5 max hp that's some amazing armor but it's not getting you far with 5 hp but in this hypothetical scenario the skill tree bumped that hp up to 50 allowing you to appreciate just how good that damage reduction is. I'm not saying Woodie needs changed or anything but I still feel like he got a little cheated by just how much of the quality of life improvements to his were forms were spread out as skill points.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

I don't understand what the issue is here... Wolfgang's crafts are way less useful than Woodie's. The firebell and icebell quite literally require Thulecite which makes them expensive for what they actually are, ESPECIALLY the Firebell. As for the Thermbell, it being the equivalent of a dumbell thermal stone is underwhelming too as the dumbell is quite terrible and using it to maintain/gain mightiness will wear down its durability too. Woodie's crafts on the other hand include cheaper boards which really adds up on saving logs when you're mass crafting them, as you get an extra from each 4. The walking stick is an incredible tool because it's not survivor exclusive and gives you +15% speed, most characters don't have day 1 speed and Woodie being able to grant them and himself that advantage is really incredible. The hardwood hat is less-so because of the fact that 70% damage protection means you take 50% more damage than if you were wearing a Football helmet, and the Eyemask exists, but it being as cheap as it is makes it an excellent utility for mass producing armor for follower characters, and you can never go wrong with such cheap armor... Or you could just not invest in it, your choice.

The notion that "KLEI LIKES THIS CHARACTER AND HATES THE OTHER" genuinely leaves me dumbfounded because it feels like you're going out of your way to just find something to complain about ignoring the fact that Woodie gets to pick out incredible boosts in literally every part of his kit as he pleases. He's become the jack of all trades that was originally intended and although Weremoose mastery is regarded as the best by many people Weregoose and especially Werebeaver masteries are more than usable and are both underrated in my opinion, and the need for Weremoose mastery is lower when you're on a server with other people. Your suggestion also would not fit as it means that Werebeaver would outclass Weregoose in the scenario where it's most useful. That's not a good idea.

Woodie's tree does NOT need to be restructured, Wolfgang's doesn't either. I don't mind spending an extra 2 points on cheaper boards and The walking stick. I don't understand why it's such a bother to you.

Sigh… okay- Stick with me on this, Klei is Underutilizing Woodie.

Now I know people think his skill tree is super amazing and fixes all of his problems and all that.. but it really… Doesn’t? 

For starters- and as pointed out in the original post: Wolfgang needs to Invest 1 skill point to gain 3 new craftables. Woodie invests 3 Skill points to gain 2.

In addition: Throughout the course of his rework, some QoL updates & his recent skill tree- Wolfgang has really branches out and became dare I say this a “fun” character to play as. Each of his 3 physical forms (Wimpy,Normal,Mighty) have their own unique pros & cons that make playing him feel like playing 3 characters at once, there’s things he can do while Wimpy/Normal he can’t do while mighty and Vice Versa, such as running faster, buffing followers, yanking sail masts up, “Crit” hitting trees and rocks, and hilariously tossing barbells at two birds just as they land so he can literally knock out two birds with one stone. This doesn’t even cover his insulation (hot/cold) changes his forms can utilize.

I do however wish that “Beyond your Limits” when your (Mighty meter turns purple from using The Gym) had some EXTRA things it could do, like just last night I was playing and standing beside a HORDE of Sleeping Beefalo I was hungry, and needed winter gear cause Winter was just starting… and I thought to myself man if I’m going to have a Brand New different colored Might Meter it would be cool if I could’ve deadlifted one of these sleeping Beefalo up without waking it or the others, Carry it off somewhere away from them and then kill it for the meats and winter fur I needed.

Woodie on the other hand, it feels like his entire skill tree was “Almost” dedicated to fixing his Werecurse. Woodie (in my play experience with him anyway…) has NOT been a fun character to play as because anytime he used a Werecurse Idol it drained his sanity to Zero & left him in full on Starvation Status upon exiting the form, which has lead to me dying while being chased by two Terrorbeaks as I have no room to both Eat, and fight them..

As I stated in the original post: I’ve only invested 3 skill points into Woodies tree (Lucy Crafts) so far but have fully maxed out Wilson & Wolfgang’s.

Playing Wolfgang exclusively for the past 5-6 months (even before he got a skill tree..) has given me an in-depth overview of the character and now ESPECIALLY with his Extra % chances to “Crit” while Mighty he feels like a faster wood chopper than even Woodie Himself.

Now as I said: Only 3 skills into Woodies Tree BUT!!!

Reading their descriptions already leave me desiring more, yes yes Moose is Great, and Treeguards will be OP.. but…

I can’t help but think Goose should’ve gotten a perk so he could catch fish in his mouth while out at sea (like just bob his head over into a fish shoal & pull out fish that would be in woodies inventory and ready to consume to negate FULL ON STARVATION STATUS after exiting the Wereform)

Since this now gives “Goose” a new role of picking up items at sea (whatever those limited items may be..) 

That let’s Werebeaver gain a new perk of “Slowly” swimming through waters, but of course taking up Gooses old role of not being able to interact with ANYTHING.. you can However.. ferry players around on his shoulders.

In short: I want Woodie to be just as in depth throughout his 4 forms as Wolfgang should be in his 4 stages of Fitness.

And I don’t feel like this current skill tree does Woodie Justice.

Mainly because.. 1 point = 3 items Wolfgang, 3 points = 2 Woodie..

But also because of all the crazy “Uniqueness” Klei has given each of Wolfgang’s stages of Buffness.

The Tail Slam, & Moose pound seem like fun upgrades… but therein lies the problem, MOST of Wolfgang’s were a default part of his Rework (minus the new leg day and coaching whistle) Meanwhile… Woodies Skill tree is all about making forms that should’ve been unique by default, better.

 

[Mysterious box]

I will agree Wilson suffers from what happened to Woodie at a much larger scale though. The torch tree should have been 2 skill points, his alchemy tab is fine where it is taking up a similar level of space as Wormwood's plant crafts. While his beard skills could have just been 3 skill points making room for more interesting abilities. 

[Uedo]

15 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Sigh… okay- Stick with me on this, Klei is Underutilizing Woodie.

Now I know people think his skill tree is super amazing and fixes all of his problems and all that.. but it really… Doesn’t? 

For starters- and as pointed out in the original post: Wolfgang needs to Invest 1 skill point to gain 3 new craftables. Woodie invests 3 Skill points to gain 2.

In addition: Throughout the course of his rework, some QoL updates & his recent skill tree- Wolfgang has really branches out and became dare I say this a “fun” character to play as. Each of his 3 physical forms (Wimpy,Normal,Mighty) have their own unique pros & cons that make playing him feel like playing 3 characters at once, there’s things he can do while Wimpy/Normal he can’t do while mighty and Vice Versa, such as running faster, buffing followers, yanking sail masts up, “Crit” hitting trees and rocks, and hilariously tossing barbells at two birds just as they land so he can literally knock out two birds with one stone. This doesn’t even cover his insulation (hot/cold) changes his forms can utilize.

I do however wish that “Beyond your Limits” when your (Mighty meter turns purple from using The Gym) had some EXTRA things it could do, like just last night I was playing and standing beside a HORDE of Sleeping Beefalo I was hungry, and needed winter gear cause Winter was just starting… and I thought to myself man if I’m going to have a Brand New different colored Might Meter it would be cool if I could’ve deadlifted one of these sleeping Beefalo up without waking it or the others, Carry it off somewhere away from them and then kill it for the meats and winter fur I needed.

Woodie on the other hand, it feels like his entire skill tree was “Almost” dedicated to fixing his Werecurse. Woodie (in my play experience with him anyway…) has NOT been a fun character to play as because anytime he used a Werecurse Idol it drained his sanity to Zero & left him in full on Starvation Status upon exiting the form, which has lead to me dying while being chased by two Terrorbeaks as I have no room to both Eat, and fight them..

As I stated in the original post: I’ve only invested 3 skill points into Woodies tree (Lucy Crafts) so far but have fully maxed out Wilson & Wolfgang’s.

Playing Wolfgang exclusively for the past 5-6 months (even before he got a skill tree..) has given me an in-depth overview of the character and now ESPECIALLY with his Extra % chances to “Crit” while Mighty he feels like a faster wood chopper than even Woodie Himself.

Now as I said: Only 3 skills into Woodies Tree BUT!!!

Reading their descriptions already leave me desiring more, yes yes Moose is Great, and Treeguards will be OP.. but…

I can’t help but think Goose should’ve gotten a perk so he could catch fish in his mouth while out at sea (like just bob his head over into a fish shoal & pull out fish that would be in woodies inventory and ready to consume to negate FULL ON STARVATION STATUS after exiting the Wereform)

Since this now gives “Goose” a new role of picking up items at sea (whatever those limited items may be..) 

That let’s Werebeaver gain a new perk of “Slowly” swimming through waters, but of course taking up Gooses old role of not being able to interact with ANYTHING.. you can However.. ferry players around on his shoulders.

In short: I want Woodie to be just as in depth throughout his 4 forms as Wolfgang should be in his 4 stages of Fitness.

And I don’t feel like this current skill tree does Woodie Justice.

Mainly because.. 1 point = 3 items Wolfgang, 3 points = 2 Woodie..

But also because of all the crazy “Uniqueness” Klei has given each of Wolfgang’s stages of Buffness.

The Tail Slam, & Moose pound seem like fun upgrades… but therein lies the problem, MOST of Wolfgang’s were a default part of his Rework (minus the new leg day and coaching whistle) Meanwhile… Woodies Skill tree is all about making forms that should’ve been unique by default, better.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges again, Mike. Not everything is weighted equally and clearly Klei have utilised skill trees to address some community concerns.

In my opinion; Skill trees do provide interesting new takes on characters but they seem to be in place to address shortcomings characters have with the new content. Wolfgang now has options when it comes down to his kit, notably around planar damage. I'd imagine Wanda will have have a similar branch in regards to planar damage. Woodie has finally received an option for dealing with forced transformations, mainly to address concerns and frustrations people have with the game shifting to frequent full moons around the CC questline. I've only recently been playing wormwood again, the option I feel that's been given to me to make me want to play wormwood is the viability of their combat perks.

Ultimately you can still play how you want to Mike, i'm sorry you're dissatisfied with the point distributions for crafts, but based on your previous posts and comments you're somebody who generally likes new crafts and structures - you ask for it a lot, so it'd be more helpful if accept you have a bias toward that and your opinion probably doesn't represent a large portion of the player base. 

[Mike23Ua]

I don’t think it’s worth starting a whole new thread just to suggest a few Woodie changes I’d like to see (which could be added as skill tree perks if Klei wants to restructure his kit)

The first suggestion is pretty basic- I’ve played Wolfgang EXCLUSIVELY for the past 6 Months till the new skill trees, Wolfgang’s “Crit Chance” Let’s him Chop Trees, Mine Boulders & Destroy Spider Nests instantly, his Skill tree also boosts this % Crit Chance if you invest into it.

which brings me to poor Woodie, His Werebeaver Form kinda sucks.. He can Gnaw Trees & Gnaw Boulders.. BOULDERS.. But His Teeth Chomping Powers SUCK when Biting into a Spider Den?? Let those Chompers destroy Spider Nests (but not the spiders that accompany them..) as quickly as Wolfgang Can! 

This would allow Woodie or players playing with Woodie to Kite the Spiders out their Nests while Beaver quickly Gnaws away the Nest.

My Second Suggestion is actually for the newer skill items Wooden Hat & Wooden Walking Cane, Woodie seems to have several quotes about using Duct Tape to fix things (inspect a Pigman house) so why not let Winona’s Duct Tape actually Repair Woodies Wooden Tools? (indirect buff to Winona as a Bonus!)

 

[abrocator]

This is a very weird hangup. He got the best skill tree.

[Mike23Ua]

Okay so it turns out I didn’t realize he had another skill, making the cost of crafting planks cheaper. I apologize for originally missing this.. and had thought I needed to invest a skill point into a Useless skill slot to unlock the ability to craft Hats & Canes.

However… Woodie still has several glaring issues I would LOVE to see addressed (especially since Klei Fixed up Wormwoods skill tree all nice & pretty like after community feedback)

My first issue With Werebeavers Mastery, it takes 4 Skill Points to unlock his Tail Slam the description reads it will destroy everything around him.. but that’s not entirely true, It’s Situational at best, and currently the BEST situation I’ve found a use for it for is this:

Spoiler

 

 

 

However.. with 4 points investment I’d love it if the Beavers Tail Slam could also destroy Spider Nests, Bee Hives, Hound Mounds, Etc (but still remaining to be highly ineffective in combat against the angry spiders that come out the nests etc..)

My next issue is with the cheaper planks perk, this is sooooo obscure I didn’t even NOTICE it exists, mostly because A: If you Pin Planks to your Quick Crafting Tab, you still spend 4 wood to make a plank instead of 3.. and B: You need to Unequip Lucy to craft these planks by opening up your Craft UI Menu and clicking on survivor skills and then (only while Lucy isn’t in hand slot..) Crafting Cheaper Planks.

This Skill in its current form absolutely freaking sucks, the entire point of putting planks in my Quick Craft Tabs was to Quickly Craft them, and Woodies skill does the exact OPPOSITE of that…

I would instead suggest we remove this perk entirely and give Woodie something more meaningful, and I have just the suggestion to request…

Ive been being ruthlessly attacked by normally peaceful Bunnymen in Caves for the past hour, but it took me quite a while to figure out WHY…

They will Attack Woodie if he has an Itchy Idol in his Inventory (I guess cause they originally needed meat to craft and spoiled over time..) Bunnymen won’t attack him if he’s carrying around Treeguard Idols, it’s only his Wereform Totems that get him Mauled over…

So my suggestion is to remove the highly obscure, highly ineffective cheaper plank craft and give him something actually useful, such as a perk that Masks the Scent of his Wereform Idols so these darn Bunnymen stop ruthlessly trying to attack him while carrying them!

Finally I want to bring up one more glaring issue but this is more of a Game Mechanics issue and less a Woodie specific one.. 

You need to for whatever dumb reason… Unequip Lucy from the hand slot to craft the Cheaper Planks, Wooden Hats, and Wooden Walking Canes.

This is painful to do on Console with an Xbox controller and has actually lead to me being killed once or twice.

Its not just a Woodie issue though, you can’t craft for example a Thermal Stone if the Pickaxe is in your hand slot…

This Really needs to be addressed in a future QOL patch.