suggestion Downsides for some skills on skill trees

[Jakepeng99]

Literally every critisism i have for skill trees would go away. This makes choosing skills matter much more, and makes it more interesting and fun. 

For example, Wolfgang's alignment abilities could make him also take +5%(maybe more) damage from the opposing side aswell as a flipside on each level spent. 

Things like this would be great, please me and many others would love it. I have seen multiple people bringing up this idea, and i think this is worth a shot. Post ideas on how you would think this might work for other skills if you want.

Of course i am not saying give every single skill a downside for the sake of it.

[Jakepeng99]

Actually this post is pointless, look at scribbles post which does what i am trying to say way better.

 

Skill trees aren't inherently bad, but some people wish they encorperated downsides and balance. https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149289-skill-trees-arent-inherently-bad-but-some-people-wish-they-encorperated-downsides-and-balance/

[00petar00]

I've not seen a game that has downsides to their skill trees, can you name me a few so that I have an idea on what it would look like? (I don't think you can as skill trees aren't associated with downsides in games).

 

[Capybara007]

14 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

 (I don't think you can as skill trees aren't associated with downsides in games).

 

lets make dst be the first of its kind

either way while i like this idea the structure of the skill tree would have to be different

look at it like this

○○○○○

●●●●●

●●●●●

■■■■■

●●●●●

●●●●●

○ = Skill available to pick

● = Skill still not available (needs the first layer to be unlocked first)

□ = Downside available to pick

■ = Downside still not available

The idea of this is that once you pick one skill from the first layer, you cannot pick another skill from that layer, and to pick the lower layers you must pick the ones above

this way if you want to get all the skills at the bottom, you must also pick some downsides

[landromat]

would be fun if there was another tree with downsides and you could pick any you want. They all are different  but each grants you additional insight point

So if you want you could fully complete your whole skill tree, but with bunch of downsides in exchange

 

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

I've not seen a game that has downsides to their skill trees, can you name me a few so that I have an idea on what it would look like? (I don't think you can as skill trees aren't associated with downsides in games).

 

PAYDAY 2 has at the very least one skill that gives you an advantage with a trade-off disadvantage.

[Jakepeng99]

55 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

lets make dst be the first of its kind

either way while i like this idea the structure of the skill tree would have to be different

look at it like this

○○○○○

●●●●●

●●●●●

■■■■■

●●●●●

●●●●●

○ = Skill available to pick

● = Skill still not available (needs the first layer to be unlocked first)

□ = Downside available to pick

■ = Downside still not available

The idea of this is that once you pick one skill from the first layer, you cannot pick another skill from that layer, and to pick the lower layers you must pick the ones above

this way if you want to get all the skills at the bottom, you must also pick some downsides

I prefer just trade offs when picking skills because that looks too complex.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

I've not seen a game that has downsides to their skill trees, can you name me a few so that I have an idea on what it would look like? (I don't think you can as skill trees aren't associated with downsides in games).

 

tbf it's usually because most games are balanced alongside it's skill trees so that the downside is what your character didn't pick for example not having poison resistance and getting poisoned, lacking fire spells against strong ice based enemies, or even just lacking a healing skill in pursuit of dps. That being said I do remember there were some games that did do this I don't really remember what they were though usually rougelites though but there were some non rougelite games that did this as well maybe later I'll try to check over my back catalog to see if I can find some good examples.

[Arcwell]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

I've not seen a game that has downsides to their skill trees, can you name me a few so that I have an idea on what it would look like? (I don't think you can as skill trees aren't associated with downsides in games).

2 I can think of off-hand:

• Silence the Voices (From Borderlands 2, Krieg): Gives +50% melee damage per point (up to 5), but you have a 12% to hit yourself whenever you melee
• Famished Flames (From Vermintide 2, Sienna): Burn effects deal +150% damage, but all other damage deals -30%

These are mostly just pure upsides because they encourage a style of play where the downside matters less or not at all.

26 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

PAYDAY 2 has at the very least one skill that gives you an advantage with a trade-off disadvantage.

Are you referring to berserker / frenzy? Because the typical builds that run those don't care about the downside because they rely on armor rather than health.

[Antynomity]

13 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Are you referring to berserker / frenzy? Because the typical builds that run those don't care about the downside because they rely on armor rather than health.

Yes, true the downside doesn't matter due to how armour works in the game but still, it gives you a downside for an upside.

[Golden Daemon]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

I've not seen a game that has downsides to their skill trees, can you name me a few so that I have an idea on what it would look like? (I don't think you can as skill trees aren't associated with downsides in games).

 

Project zomboid would be a good example, though i have to say its not really a skill tree, but the concept is the same, it allows you to take negative traits(things like having a lower stress tolerance, blindness , being an alchoholic/smoker,etc...) which gives you extra points to spend on positive traits that you could add to you character.

[pyroisshy]

4 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I've not seen a game that has downsides to their skill trees, can you name me a few so that I have an idea on what it would look like? (I don't think you can as skill trees aren't associated with downsides in games).

 

Krieg from Borderlands 2

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

tbf it's usually because most games are balanced alongside it's skill trees so that the downside is what your character didn't pick for example not having poison resistance and getting poisoned, lacking fire spells against strong ice based enemies, or even just lacking a healing skill in pursuit of dps. That being said I do remember there were some games that did do this I don't really remember what they were though usually rougelites though but there were some non rougelite games that did this as well maybe later I'll try to check over my back catalog to see if I can find some good examples.

I think the main reason is because all of dst's characters (Except Wilson) was not designed around having a skill tree to begin with.

 

Also i realised, there is another game with perks with downsides! Not really a skill tree, but the fleeces in cult of the lamb, e.g ability to convert mana to health, but health can not be gained in any other way. The downsides change how you play though i will be honest this fleece was a bad example i used what i mainly remember.

[dois raios]

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Wolfgang's alignment abilities could make him also take +5%(maybe more) damage from the opposing side aswell as a flipside on each level spent.

wolfgang had 300hp, now he has 200hp, and now we are trying to push it even lower?

I thought wolfgang would have a option to increase the HP in the skill tree not the opposite XD

[Jakepeng99]

39 minutes ago, dois raios said:

wolfgang had 300hp, now he has 200hp, and now we are trying to push it even lower?

I thought wolfgang would have a option to increase the HP in the skill tree not the opposite XD

Trading for damage. Player choice.

[dois raios]

5 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Trading for damage. Player choice.

I agree, it would be good since the skill tree is optional and it would be also good if you could trade health by damage.

 

I was just saying that he had a whooping 300hp before.

It could be also a skill branch that blocks each other, "regain your former welfare or become even weaker in exchange of more damage"

[Popian]

It should be noted that Wormwood has this with his plant crafts - they're really expensive to mass-produce even if you ignore the health cost.