Jakepeng99 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 I was writing this somrwhere else but copy and paste don't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Bee queen is fine as is. She encourages people to try different tactics like using followers. Not every boss should be easily kiteable. Plus her loot is insanely good making her worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dextops Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 8 minutes ago, Gashzer said: Bee queen is fine as is. She encourages people to try different tactics like using followers. Not every boss should be easily kiteable. no reason she can't be improved upon even if you do like her as is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antynomity Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 19 minutes ago, Gashzer said: Bee queen is fine as is. She encourages people to try different tactics like using followers. Not every boss should be easily kiteable. Plus her loot is insanely good making her worth the effort. KEYWORD: fine doesn't equal good / fun or both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 34 minutes ago, Gashzer said: Bee queen is fine as is. She encourages people to try different tactics like using followers. Not every boss should be easily kiteable. Plus her loot is insanely good making her worth the effort. Actually.. My idea of a BQ rework would be to take away some of her grumble bee minions, let her instead spit up globs of Honey Goo (that splat to the ground like the new Grazers from Lunar rifts do) these “Honey Splats” are easy to see incoming & Dodge out of the way of, but if they hit you.. they’ll slow you down or even immobilize you for a few seconds. Meanwhile: Bee Queen herself now attempts to Violently Stab you with that Sharp Stinger on the end of her Behind, so she charges up and then Zips across the screen Horizontally or Diagonally- if you’ve played TMNT Shredders Revenge think of it like that one fight against the dude with the Jet Pack.. Finally, she will hover over your head for a few seconds before Slamming straight down with a Mario-Style Butt Slam, getting her Stinger “Stuck” in the ground for a few free hits she will scream & cry for help from her grumbles while being stuck, and maybe spit Honey Globs to try and keep you away as she frees herself. The TL:DR- Lower all bosses health so they don’t take 5+ in-game days to fight, make their attacks EASY to Dodge but probably INSTANT KILL You if you Mess Up, and give them a Brief Window of Vulnerability to get in some hits. Similar to how Moose/Goose Offspring when their Mama is killed will violently spin around like Tornados before getting Dizzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theukon-dos Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Uncompromising Mode makes her into a pretty nice fight. It gives her and the grumble bees some novel additions, like "Patterns", and "formations" or "Some actual openings". Naturally Klei shouldn't just rip the UM Bee Queen fight straight into the game. But I think the general formula is there for what they should do. Just make the grumble bees have an actual job in the fight instead of swarming the player(s) like a pack of starving hounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catteflyterpill Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Unless this was some variation like Misery Toadstool, coming out with new drops, I don't think a rework is really worth the effort right now. I think she's a fun and interesting boss as she is, don't see much need for change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloopah Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 57 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said: Uncompromising Mode makes her into a pretty nice fight. It gives her and the grumble bees some novel additions, like "Patterns", and "formations" or "Some actual openings". Naturally Klei shouldn't just rip the UM Bee Queen fight straight into the game. But I think the general formula is there for what they should do. Just make the grumble bees have an actual job in the fight instead of swarming the player(s) like a pack of starving hounds. God, this boss look great with the mod. If "uncompromising" means "fun with only one player" then I want the "raid" bosses to be much more uncompromising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosuko Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 It would be kinda cool if they swapped out her bee-dash attack in her later phases into some kinda bullet hell pattern that you can dodge through for some damage time on her. Of course teleporting kinda makes this not work.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theukon-dos Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 10 minutes ago, bloopah said: God, this boss look great with the mod. If "uncompromising" means "fun with only one player" then I want the "raid" bosses to be much more uncompromising. Honestly it might. The twins and Crab King also got reworked to be way more uncompromising but manageable (Though the latter's still a WIP). So yes, make all the bosses Uncompromising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosuko Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said: Uncompromising Mode makes her into a pretty nice fight. It gives her and the grumble bees some novel additions, like "Patterns", and "formations" or "Some actual openings". Naturally Klei shouldn't just rip the UM Bee Queen fight straight into the game. But I think the general formula is there for what they should do. Just make the grumble bees have an actual job in the fight instead of swarming the player(s) like a pack of starving hounds. Pretty cool looking things, but how much does this favor non-combat play? I think in DST it is important to remember this game isn't a boss fight sim, and non-combat options should be viable. Can Winona set up catapults on that? Or you can build a bunnyman army? This looks fun for a session, but seems more like a 1 and done kinda thing. Too involved to run that on repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said: Uncompromising Mode makes her into a pretty nice fight. It gives her and the grumble bees some novel additions, like "Patterns", and "formations" or "Some actual openings". Naturally Klei shouldn't just rip the UM Bee Queen fight straight into the game. But I think the general formula is there for what they should do. Just make the grumble bees have an actual job in the fight instead of swarming the player(s) like a pack of starving hounds. This is actually a pretty cool fight mechanically. I have a few concerns namely with health pool since we don't have access to whatever that AoE spinny moonshard thing or the bug zapper. for damage. I REALLY like the passive grumble bees that orbit the queen to block access to her depending on the side. Neat mechanic. Klei could use a lot of this for sure. Makes the fight a lot more interactive rather than just "tank until it's time to run" Removing the honey she has is a really nice addition to allow kiting to be possible without ludicrous amounts of move speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capybara007 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 For some reason this game and the comunity encourage the bosses to be a total mess with no good pattern or solution to their attacks where its just a "figure it out" from the devs as there doesnt seem to be an actual method they intended for the players to beat bee queen its crazy to come back from their other game rotwood which has really creative boss attacks that dont feel like a total unfair trick like bq grumble bees or fw bone cage and actually make you feel dumb for getting hit, i cant remember the last time i felt that with a dst boss Point is, anyone tell me what is the method the developers actually intended for bee queen, because if it is hold f with other players or panflute spam there is no denying she is a bad boss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsheen Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 5 hours ago, Theukon-dos said: Uncompromising Mode makes her into a pretty nice fight. This doesn't seem nice to me personally, just one cool move and then "cover the area in as much honey as possible" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popian Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 43 minutes ago, Capybara007 said: For some reason this game and the comunity encourage the bosses to be a total mess with no good pattern or solution to their attacks where its just a "figure it out" from the devs as there doesnt seem to be an actual method they intended for the players to beat bee queen its crazy to come back from their other game rotwood which has really creative boss attacks that dont feel like a total unfair trick like bq grumble bees or fw bone cage and actually make you feel dumb for getting hit, i cant remember the last time i felt that with a dst boss Point is, anyone tell me what is the method the developers actually intended for bee queen, because if it is hold f with other players or panflute spam there is no denying she is a bad boss Surprised there aren't any videos covering it, but solo/brute-force methods would be more popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theukon-dos Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 4 hours ago, Horsheen said: This doesn't seem nice to me personally, just one cool move and then "cover the area in as much honey as possible" Most of the attacks leave the gumble bees open to be attacked and killed, and Her Majesty won't instantly spawn more unlike in vanilla. Plus the strong attacks that leave Bee Queen winded for an extended period of time. Even if the fight isn't "perfect", it's still a heck of a lot better than the hodgepodge she is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capybara007 Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 To the people that think bosses are fine because dst isnt a fighting game, look at the 2 previous updates where pretty much all of the content revolves around fighting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 31 minutes ago, Capybara007 said: To the people that think bosses are fine because dst isnt a fighting game, look at the 2 previous updates where pretty much all of the content revolves around fighting But Bee queen is a good fight! I love having to recruit bunnymen to kill her. She has her own army so you bring your own army too. There is always enough bunny hutches in the caves to craft 8-9 bunny hutches by bee queen and thats all you need. 9 armoured bunnymen with either football helmets or beekeeper hats can weaken bee queen to phase 3 before dying. Once bee queen is in phase 3 you can just kite the grumble bees away after bee queen screams and kill her solo easy peasy. Phase 2 is by far the most annoying phase when the grumble army stays near her but 9 armoured bunnymen can get you past that phase! People want to be able to solo kite bee queen like every other boss which is boring. Lets keep her different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capybara007 Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 People want bee queen to be a more interactive and rich in attacks fight where you need raw skill and reaction to beat her with low dodge opportunities to elevate the difficulty you can use a bazillion catas or use a bunnymen army but all you really do is watch them hit the boss, there is no pattern, no attack window, no obvious skill ceiling, its fun because they intended her to be caotic, but i think it has come to a point where "chaos" in dont starve its just a dead joke that nobody really seems to laugh at Im not saying klei should put all of those steps in every dst boss, but just so happens that the most liked bosses like dfly, ancient guardian and celestial champion all dont have a dumb mechanic that forces you to really go out for a stretch solution to the problem (dfly kinda does but whatever) In games like Noita bosses DO have an intended way but because there are so many options to defeat them, the "make your own fight" theme really feels fresh, because there is an intended way, you are just choosing to be creative, whereas dst just forces you to be creative because apparently there is no real way to defeat the bee queen without some obscure item or strat I might make a thread about it because its a topic i think it has really impacted klei's decision making on bosses, their last boss is also the raw skill type of deal with no cheesy tricks, it makes you wander if the reason why other bosses havent been reworked yet is because they just dont have time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsheen Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 7 hours ago, Theukon-dos said: Most of the attacks leave the gumble bees open to be attacked and killed, and Her Majesty won't instantly spawn more unlike in vanilla. Plus the strong attacks that leave Bee Queen winded for an extended period of time. Even if the fight isn't "perfect", it's still a heck of a lot better than the hodgepodge she is now. You do have a point, Bee Queen right now doesn't have a whole lot of vulnerability windows, especially in phase 2 which UM does seem to fix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 1 hour ago, Capybara007 said: you can use a bazillion catas or use a bunnymen army but all you really do is watch them hit the boss, there is no pattern, no attack window, no obvious skill ceiling, its fun because they intended her to be caotic, but i think it has come to a point where "chaos" in dont starve its just a dead joke that nobody really seems to laugh at But thats the thing, you dont need a bazillion bunnymen, you only need enough to get to phase 3 (which is 8/9), not enough for them to kill her without you. The extra follower prep isnt alot. You dont need to grind for any extra bunny puffs, the caves have enough hutches to transport up. People tend to over prep for bee queen like shes this super difficult awkward boss. Nah she isnt.. just use the mechanics that the game has and the fight is fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloopah Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 21 minutes ago, Gashzer said: But thats the thing, you dont need a bazillion bunnymen, you only need enough to get to phase 3 (which is 8/9), not enough for them to kill her without you. That's not the point. The point is that unless you have Bunnymen or anything attacking Bee Queen alongside you it's gonna be a terrible fight due to the amount of things swarming you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antynomity Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 5 minutes ago, bloopah said: That's not the point. The point is that unless you have Bunnymen or anything attacking Bee Queen alongside you it's gonna be a terrible fight due to the amount of things swarming you. That or it's going to be a long drag without those or an another player with you. which makes it a massive resource sink since you kind of have to tank her when the bees are away otherwise the fight is gonna drag on for even longer than it already will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 38 minutes ago, bloopah said: That's not the point. The point is that unless you have Bunnymen or anything attacking Bee Queen alongside you it's gonna be a terrible fight due to the amount of things swarming you. 32 minutes ago, yourAnty said: That or it's going to be a long drag without those or an another player with you. which makes it a massive resource sink since you kind of have to tank her when the bees are away otherwise the fight is gonna drag on for even longer than it already will. Exactly my point, bee queen forces you to employ different tactics other than kite and attack. She forces you to bring followers to hurt her to phase 3 then kite and tank during phase 3 otherwise you will have a bad time! This is what i want from raid bosses, to make us use different strategies for each of them. The UM mod bee queen has fancy attacks buts its just the same old kite and attack. There is no different prep needed from fighting ancient guardian or UM bee queen for example. The current bee queen makes you want to prep differently and engage with the follower mechanics. All this prep is rewarded with 18 jellybeans, the means to reverse sanity drain of bosses and bundling wrap.. insane! That is 54 pierogi worth of healing you get back. You wont use 54 pierogis for bee queen so the jellybeans are a healing net gain. Bee queen is well worth the prep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloopah Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 36 minutes ago, Gashzer said: its just the same old kite and attack. Did you even watch the video??? It's not "just the same old kite and attack", it's her having more attacks than just Grumble Bee spam, having to dodge attacks from a distance and between all of this having windows to attack yourself. And guess what? You don't need an army or Pan Flute spam to have a chance at the boss. 36 minutes ago, Gashzer said: She forces you to bring followers to hurt her to phase 3 then kite and tank during phase 3 otherwise you will have a bad time! This is not a positive. 36 minutes ago, Gashzer said: All this prep is rewarded with 18 jellybeans, the means to reverse sanity drain of bosses and bundling wrap.. insane! That is 54 pierogi worth of healing you get back. You wont use 54 pierogis for bee queen so the jellybeans are a healing net gain. As if it wouldn't be rewarded when using something like On Tentacles spam to kill her, which requires much less prep than your Bunnyman nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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