My concept for bee queen rework

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, bloopah said:

Did you even watch the video??? It's not "just the same old kite and attack", it's her having more attacks than just Grumble Bee spam, having to dodge attacks from a distance and between all of this having windows to attack yourself. And guess what? You don't need an army or Pan Flute spam to have a chance at the boss.

Yeah exactly, not as fun as having to raise an army.

1 hour ago, bloopah said:

As if it wouldn't be rewarded when using something like On Tentacles spam to kill her, which requires much less prep than your Bunnyman nonsense.

Apart from being a character exclusive solution. On tentacles uses glitched spawning due to broken walls being able to stand on. Its an old school exploit. Bunnymen everyone can use (apart from webber and wortox), is a legit method and it doesnt take long to hammer 18 hutches from the caves since they spawn together usually.

[bloopah]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah exactly, not as fun as having to raise an army.

If you think having to raise an army is fun then why does nobody else do it then, instead of cheesing it with Tentacles?

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

On tentacles uses glitched spawning due to broken walls being able to stand on. Its an old school exploit.

And? You're the only person I've seen that complains about that. It's almost like it's generally accepted to put a Tentacle trap next to Bee Queen to make killing her easier.

Imagine only being able to use the Summoner class in Terraria for bosses because they spawn so much backup that all of your other weapons fail to penetrate the wall of meat shields.

[Picklesaurus]

This is a really sloppy solo kill of her:

I enjoy fighting her, I just wish it didnt take so long as a x1 damage multiplier character. 

[_zwb]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Its an old school exploit.

How is this an exploit? The developers clearly don't want the tentacles to spawn on structures, which is what this method takes advantage of.

[Spep]

Bee queen has to be my most hated boss in DST, flat out. Her only mechanic that actually matters is throwing a fistful of adds at you every picosecond, forcing you to either completely bypass her (like 40 bunnymen, 4 catapult arrays, tentacles, merms... you could probably even chuck celestial champion at her if the dock thing still works) OR suffer the worlds most obnoxious kiting pattern and come out on the other end half asleep.

Of course not talking multiplayer, but every boss is easy in multiplayer so who cares.

[Gashzer]

3 minutes ago, _zwb said:

How is this an exploit? The developers clearly don't want the tentacles to spawn on structures, which is what this method takes advantage of.

Yeah but clearly the devs dont want people walking in the abyss of the caves but the bug that allows you to do that still exists... is void walking not an exploit either cause klei hasnt patched it?

[bloopah]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Yeah but clearly the devs dont want people walking in the abyss of the caves but the bug that allows you to do that still exists... is void walking not an exploit either cause klei hasnt patched it?

Void Walking is a flaw of the game's engine. Tentacles not spawning on Structures and Walls is an intended design.

[Jakepeng99]

On 6/21/2023 at 7:33 PM, Gashzer said:

Bee queen is fine as is. She encourages people to try different tactics like using followers. Not every boss should be easily kiteable. 

Plus her loot is insanely good making her worth the effort.

I probably have sucked at explaining how i imagine it, and it does not need to be how i did imagine it, though i find her fight annoying without merms or catapults(Both character exclusive), and loot does not impact the fight.

27 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

This is a really sloppy solo kill of her:

I enjoy fighting her, I just wish it didnt take so long as a x1 damage multiplier character. 

Yeah i just find it so tedious with very little windows for damage.

[Capybara007]

Every boss should have a way the developers intended to be defeated

as much as i hate fw the devs still made a path you must follow, destroy shield and kill wovenshadows

beequeen does not have any intended way to be fought traditionally with just a weapon and armor

[Jakepeng99]

12 minutes ago, bloopah said:

Void Walking is a flaw of the game's engine. Tentacles not spawning on Structures and Walls is an intended design.

They could fix void walking by adding a mechanic that pools you back in, but they know players enjoy it. They don't do a nintendo and patch bugs without reading their label.

4 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Every boss should have a way the developers intended to be defeated

as much as i hate fw the devs still made a path you must follow, destroy shield and kill wovenshadows

beequeen does not have any intended way to be fought traditionally wisth just a weapon and armor

She was made back when klei was trying to make bosses that were almost un-soloable. Toadstool used to have 150k hp, and despawn after 5 minutes. Bee queen was introduced a little later with the same mind set, though not as near bad. The intended way for her is get a group of friends to fight the horde. 

[bloopah]

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

The intended way for her is get a group of friends to fight the horde. 

Which is why I am really hoping for an ANR/C r a b  K i n g boss rework. Antlion is very fun to fight (probably because he was added as a replacement for Dragonfly, meaning he wasn't intended to be fought in a group) and the Shadow Clockworks and Klaus seem to be not that bad either (I haven't fought them yet), but all of the others are just garbage without going through two years of preparation aka. Moose/Goose manslaughter. They tried so hard to force you to go in a group that they forgot to make the bosses tolerable for a solo player.

[Gashzer]

28 minutes ago, bloopah said:

Void Walking is a flaw of the game's engine. Tentacles not spawning on Structures and Walls is an intended design.

Tentacles not spawning on structures is intended... but walking on structures with your character isnt intended as they block your movement too. However klei didnt take into account that walls can be structures you can walk on.... 

Still tho void walking hasnt been patched so its as legit as on tentacles with walls and the wall tactic for dfly.

19 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

They could fix void walking by adding a mechanic that pools you back in, but they know players enjoy it. They don't do a nintendo and patch bugs without reading their label.

Ah yes... the same nintendo that creates some of the best games of all time, probably because they dont let the player base call the shots and actually patch bugs because game polish is more important and that hard working attitude leads to better games.

[bloopah]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Ah yes... the same nintendo that creates some of the best games of all time, probably because they dont let the player base call the shots and actually patch bugs because game polish is more important and that hard working attitude leads to better games.

The same Nintendo that copyright-claimed every YouTube video unless you applied for their horrible creator program, until 2018 when it was finally shut down. The same Nintendo that refuses to upload their own music somewhere for people to listen to, and at the same time copyright strike prominent channels for uploading said music. The same Nintendo that charges you for online multiplayer and cloud saving due to it also including a library of a few 25+ year old games. The same Nintendo that utterly refuses to properly sell the games it doesn't put into its paid subscription anywhere else and is witch-hunting people who allow others to download said games for free.

"Hard working attitude"? Or being extremely dense when it comes to anything that doesn't directly involve game production?

[lenship2]

33 minutes ago, bloopah said:

The same Nintendo that copyright-claimed every YouTube video unless you applied for their horrible creator program, until 2018 when it was finally shut down. The same Nintendo that refuses to upload their own music somewhere for people to listen to, and at the same time copyright strike prominent channels for uploading said music. The same Nintendo that charges you for online multiplayer and cloud saving due to it also including a library of a few 25+ year old games. The same Nintendo that utterly refuses to properly sell the games it doesn't put into its paid subscription anywhere else and is witch-hunting people who allow others to download said games for free.

not that i wanna take sides but that does not directly address Gashzer's point at all, which was that Nintendo made good games, not financial and property decisions.

[bloopah]

1 minute ago, lenship2 said:

not that i wanna take sides but that does not directly address Gashzer's point at all, which was that Nintendo made good games, not financial and property decisions.

I have listed those things because if we're comparing game companies then we shouldn't just focus on the games themselves. Klei might not pump out games and patches at the same rate as Nintendo, but they certainly aren't as deaf as Nintendo and listen to players if there are blatant issues (according to Gashzer at the cost of "game polish",  I guess).

[_zwb]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah but clearly the devs dont want people walking in the abyss of the caves but the bug that allows you to do that still exists... is void walking not an exploit either cause klei hasnt patched it?

What are you talking about? The void walking glitch has nothing to do with bee Queen.

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, bloopah said:

Which is why I am really hoping for an ANR/C r a b  K i n g boss rework. Antlion is very fun to fight (probably because he was added as a replacement for Dragonfly, meaning he wasn't intended to be fought in a group) and the Shadow Clockworks and Klaus seem to be not that bad either (I haven't fought them yet), but all of the others are just garbage without going through two years of preparation aka. Moose/Goose manslaughter. They tried so hard to force you to go in a group that they forgot to make the bosses tolerable for a solo player.

Yeah they try avoid that now. The last time they tried that was with fuelweaver.

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Tentacles not spawning on structures is intended... but walking on structures with your character isnt intended as they block your movement too. However klei didnt take into account that walls can be structures you can walk on.... 

Still tho void walking hasnt been patched so its as legit as on tentacles with walls and the wall tactic for dfly.

Ah yes... the same nintendo that creates some of the best games of all time, probably because they dont let the player base call the shots and actually patch bugs because game polish is more important and that hard working attitude leads to better games.

In the 3D mario ports, and in super mario maker, they patched bugs liked by players, like icicles heing global blocks... for no reason, icicles were very useful.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Tentacles not spawning on structures is intended... but walking on structures with your character isnt intended as they block your movement too. However klei didnt take into account that walls can be structures you can walk on.... 

Still tho void walking hasnt been patched so its as legit as on tentacles with walls and the wall tactic for dfly.

idk - whenever I try to judge dev intent I look at what already exists in the game.  IF something exists in the game in one place, but not in another then we can reasonably determine it as "intended," as they could have easily applied different code to give it different behavior.

For instance - Bee Queen and Dragon Fly both fly over walls / structures.  IF they wanted other mobs (grumbles, lavae) to bypass walls they would have.  Similarly they both get body blocked by mobs.  IF they wanted them to not be body blocked they would have given them the code to fly over them which we see when Dfly retreats to spawn from her lava ponds.

So is it "intended" to be able to walk on completely broken walls?  Well, we see that there are structures both with and without collision, and we see that walls of all levels except broken have collision so I feel we can reasonably presume the devs did intend for the player to walk over broken walls.

It also makes sense thematically as IF broken walls blocked players they would probably need to block most mobs too in which case... what would the point of hounds attacking a wall be if the wall would still obstruct their movement..?

[Gashzer]

18 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Snippy snip

For dfly using walls to block larve is legit if you wall around each lava pool... cause yeno walls are meant to block things. Its building a straight wall through a lava pool which bugs out the pathfinding. So instead of going around the wall they try to go through the lava pool and get stuck... thematically the larve should just jump in the pool and jump out the other side...

Walls arnt the bug here its messing up the pathfinding thats the bug.

Same with on tentacles. The bug isnt being able to walk over broken walls its manipulating the spawning of tentacles with the broken walls. Thematically makes more sense if the tentacles erupted through the broken walls and structures destroying them completely. On tentacles has a random spawn pattern unless we bug them out. 

Bee queen shouldnt be body blocked by mole worms that are moving underground or beefalo. She should fly over moleworms (its crazy that she cant...) and attack beefalo if they are in her way... this is logically what a giant angry queen bee would do and gives her an actual brain.

Klei are terrible at bug patching. Absolutely terrible. Its my biggest gripe with them. Content updates are pretty good overall even if i do complain about them.

[Tranoze]

15 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Tentacles not spawning on structures is intended... but walking on structures with your character isnt intended as they block your movement too. However klei didnt take into account that walls can be structures you can walk on.... 

Nah, even putting grass twigs on ground can block tentacles too, so it not just structures. We dont know what dev actually intend the game to work, so unless you quote them in a bug fix that "this isnt intended" or "this is intended", all of them are features and anyway to kill bosses within players ability and creativity are legit strategy.

What if they intended to allow players glitch to void?

[Gashzer]

17 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

What if they intended to allow players glitch to void?

If all these bugs are actually not bugs but intended features then Klei have to be the laziest, dumbest devs of all time haha.

Ofc they arnt intended tho just the void walking bug you have to go out of your way to learn. It would be very rare to accidently do it. So klei are like "meh we dont have the time to sort this and average player isnt goin to accidently do this bug, we have other more important things."

[Antynomity]

21 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Exactly my point, bee queen forces you to employ different tactics other than kite and attack. She forces you to bring followers to hurt her to phase 3 then kite and tank during phase 3 otherwise you will have a bad time! This is what i want from raid bosses, to make us use different strategies for each of them.

The UM mod bee queen has fancy attacks buts its just the same old kite and attack. There is no different prep needed from fighting ancient guardian or UM bee queen for example. The current bee queen makes you want to prep differently and engage with the follower mechanics.

All this prep is rewarded with 18 jellybeans, the means to reverse sanity drain of bosses and bundling wrap.. insane! That is 54 pierogi worth of healing you get back. You wont use 54 pierogis for bee queen so the jellybeans are a healing net gain. 

Bee queen is well worth the prep.

Didn't know there was an issue with people not wanting to take damage, come up with something better of an excuse please.

[Tranoze]

34 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

we dont have the time to sort this and average player isnt goin to accidently do this bug, we have other more important things."

They do fixed void bug in surface when they introduced new ocean, and in the same patch they make that any items you drop into cave void get destroyed.

So cave void walk feel like a feature to me.

34 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

then Klei have to be the laziest, dumbest devs of all time haha.

Please dont insult people here.

27 minutes ago, yourAnty said:

Didn't know there was an issue with people not wanting to take damage, come up with something better of an excuse please.

The issue is he want all method of doing anystuff better and require less effort than the method he come up with are all bug and unintended features and should be removed from the game.

Nuclear power convert power at the rate e = mc2 instead of coal rate power? That must be a bug, dev please fix and remove nuclear power from the game.

[Gashzer]

37 minutes ago, yourAnty said:

Didn't know there was an issue with people not wanting to take damage, come up with something better of an excuse please.

There is. Lazy veterans just wanna be able to kite everything easily after learning fight patterns. However this means all the prep for boss fights is the same for them. Bee queen fight incentivises you to prep alot differently than most other bosses (getting followers opposed to just doing it completely solo), this rewards you with a much easier fight and this is whatraid bosses should aim to do. 

For example, Mike has stated many times that he hasnt killed bee queen and it shocks me as first of all he is a wendy main, second of all bunnymen are very easy to transfer to surface. 9 bunnymen and abigail will destroy bee queen so easy, all he needs is to hammer some hutches (no extra bunny puff grinding needed), 2 marble armour and 3 beekeeper hats. And like 10 pierogis max.

Its a bit more grindy than dfly but bunnymen can help kill dfly/crab king or for killing monkeys at moonquay island/raids so they are always worth the effort to bring to surface. 

Do people on these forums not like leaving their comfort zones at all? Lets make every boss get stunned like nightmare werepig and ancient guardian after kiting attacks.... cause that wont get samey fast...

 

[Pet Rock]

51 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Lazy veterans just wanna be able to kite everything easily after learning fight patterns.

Im all for using a counter-army to destroy bee queen's but this isn't a constructive way to lead an argument. The same argument could be made with hiring bunnymen/pigmen. I haven't personally fought her this way, but it's relatively easy to recruit a few and I imagine one could just sit back and relax/tank during the fight. As previously stated I think using an army to fight her makes sense and should be incentivized but dividing the community is not a good way to go about arguing.

A compromise would be the best solution here. Replacing the honey trail with the flying honey splatters things that act like ewecus-goo others have recommended and slightly decreasing the grumble bee spawn frequency/amount would make kiting a bit easier and make her attacks more varied, while still incentivizing an army so players stuck in the honey could be freed in solo.