Masked Koopa Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 Intro: I think it's probably quite uncontroversial to say that a lot of the bosses in the game are designed specifically with the idea in mind that you are going to be fighting them as a group. Whether it be fuelweaver, crab king, toadstool, dragonfly or bee queen, there's a pretty consistent trend of bosses being essentially impossible to beat solo, at least without significant time invested in learning the specifics of each boss's mechanics. This tends to result in a lot of suggestions for things like HP scaling, or just a general dislike of the design specific bosses bring to the table, but a lot of people see HP scaling as being too direct, and too messy a system. My take on the issue: I feel like the best way to fix this issue would instead be to buff the capability of "intelligent" followers, specifically pigs and merms, although bunnymen could plausibly be included in this as well. While followers can be used to help in some of these fights, the way they are used generally ends up being focused on spamming the minion in high numbers to overwhelm the target, which ends up causing issues if the boss has AOE, or if the minion count makes it difficult to players to actually engage the enemy, or deal with the unique aspects of the fight. How to implement "better" followers In my opinion, the best way for minions to be improved should not be in simply buffing their power, but instead buffing their capacity. Currently, every minion acts as a mindless attack drone, which is a relic from Don't Starve, where the stupidity of the pigs was meant to enhance the sense of isolation the player felt. As DST is very much not about that sort of feeling, I think it is OK to revisit the idea of improving their AI. I would suggest the following tweaks to all "Smart" followers, those being Pigs and Merms, and maybe Bunnymen. Prioritising the greater threat. I.E: focusing on a bosses's weak point instead of falling for their tricks. They would prioritise attacking things like Larvae, Claws attatched to their boat, Woven Shadows, Klaus (Not attacking the deer), and on Chopping the sporecaps. How this prioritisation would specifically work is up to discussion, whether it be independant behaviour from the mobs, or whether they will prioritise a task based on the command from their leader. Weapons can be given to followers. There's been some discussion on pigs/merms being seen with spears, and while it was evidently meant to be artistic license, I think there is real utility in just allowing this interaction. I understand that there would be some concern over combining the "minion spam" strategy with a bunch of weapon-wielding minions, something like this could be combatted with a greatly increased hunger drain from any minion wielding a weapon, to the point where having more than a handfull of minions wielding weapons would be something a player already extremely well-versed in the game's mechanics would be able to pull off. As to how exactly the damage increases would work, my take would be something akin to the weapon's base damage -10 is added onto the minion's damage. So a pig would deal 24(34-10) extra damage with a spear, 58 more with a darksword, etc. Healing items can be used by followers. Honey poultice, Healing salves, and tillweed salves are all generally not as used by the playerbase at large, but they'd be a nice addition to the improved follower, as we could rationalise that followers are too greedy to keep food instead of eating it. The healing of these items could scale with the follower's max HP, so they don't spend too much time standing around applying healing items. A general buff to helmet durability when worn by a follower. Putting a helmet on a follower is generally more expensive than the benefits you'll get out of their increased survivability. An alternative to this would be simply allowing the minion to carry helmets in reserve, but this would nessecitate adding the ability to view a follower's inventory, as it'd remove the ability to remove a hat from a follower by giving them a different one. General sailing capabilities. Stuff like being able to patch a leak, lower an anchor, raise a sail, or even row a boat. I think it'd be really cool, because it'd also incentivise solo players to have a "crew" that they are captain of, similar to the monkies having a crew, and it'd give the pirate bandanas some excellent utility for buffing minions. How exactly you'd implement that would be up for debate, but there's almost certainly a way to implement it that'd feel natural. Misc. buffs that don't play into my point: I think pigs especially are also just overdue some buffs in general, they've been in the game for ages, but haven't really been given any significant changes since DST's creation. These don't really have anything to do with the focus on multiplayer, but I reckon it'd be nice if minions could also do stuff like pick up items, and use tools. I reckon as long as a player has to do maintinence in the form of paying their minions in food, it's OK for them to be able to do tasks that a player would be able to. I don't think the game would be broken by pigmen being able to gather logs, dig stumps, till fields, or even do something as simple as pick grass. "But what about X character?" Would some of these kind of make some specific character perks a bit worse? Sure, but that happens all the time. There's no reason a character can't just be buffed or given additional features if they lack a proper niche following a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 Dunno about you but 9 football helmetted bunnymen wreck: moose/goose, dfly, crab king, help alot to weaken bee queen to phase 3 before dying. You can kite bee queen solo alot easier in phase 3 and 4 so the bunnymen have done their bit. Its easy enough to get 9 bunny hutches too. Like even if your followers eventually die in a fight they still do massive damage if you armour them up. Woodie has a unique interaction with werepigs. 15 football helmetted pigs during a long winter full moon can kill bee queen... you lose out in the royal jelly cause the werepigs eat it but its good for the blueprint and crown. Rock lobsters mess up ancient fuelweaver real bad. You still need weather pains but they increase your dps alot and they wont die during the fight. Toadstool wrecks followers but thats ok, followers shouldnt help with all bosses. I dunno followers are alot stronger than people give them credit for. One of the reasons i main walter is for how easy he can recruit followers with the one man band without lowering sanity and how easy he can recruit rock lobsters. Slingshot slow down rounds also help to boost follower dps as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 Maybe they can add lunar variants of current followers, making them more enlightened thus less chaotic. So you get to keep the original chaos and sense of loneliness at the same time. Though I would say the problem here isn't the followers, is the boss design. Like, what is this? Why am I forced to fight something designed for 4 people alone? Why are they so obsessed with multiplayer aspect and forgetting the fact that the average player count on all servers is less than 2? I know this game's main gimmick is that you can play with friends, but Don't Starve is an "anti social" game(said Kevin Forbes), so... why are you expecting me to have friends? Kinda silly no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capybara007 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 give the bosses attacks that are only active when there are many players, klaus does this well and give more bosses aoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamehun20 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 2 minutes ago, _zwb said: they so obsessed with multiplayer aspect and forgetting the fact that the average player count on all servers is less than 2? I wonder why they design a boss for multiple people in a game called "don't starve together" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 11 minutes ago, gamehun20 said: I wonder why they design a boss for multiple people in a game called "don't starve together" It's normal to design bosses for multiplayer but they completely ignored the solo player experience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDonuts Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 I really like the idea. And the equipment/healing inventory could be addressed with simple UI showing an inventory similar to Chester content but with slot dedicated to a function: - head slot, plus eventual reserve slot for a helmet - weapon slot (plus eventual reserve) - 1 slot for a stack of healing item (it would allow food item for healing) the inventory would be accessible only on friendly followers. I am not sure the smart followers would be the way to go. But having a control to command for actions would be nice. It could require a specific item to activate: Something similar to Maxwell’s codex umbra, or the item could mark an action to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrocator Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 I think raid bosses are easier for a team earlier game but they are easier to farm as a solo player late game. Once a setup with BeeQueen or Dragon Fly is up you can just repeat. The reason that it’s easier to farm solo is that you get the loot aaaall to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALCRD Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 59 minutes ago, abrocator said: The reason that it’s easier to farm solo is that you get the loot aaaall to yourself. Speaking of i wish DST finally added same mechanic like Terraria where bosses drop lootbags for players who were active and present for the duration of the fight and only said players see and can pick those up and they contain whatever the loot pool of said boss was. It could even be an option in world settings Classic Boss Loot / Loot Bags for those who go "Noooo! I wanna farm bosses several times for each person / steal boss loot from others!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 8 hours ago, Masked Koopa said: dragonfly Fighting Dragonfly with multiple players is an enormous snoozefest. Literally just hold F and she dies in like 1 minute. 7 hours ago, _zwb said: It's normal to design bosses for multiplayer but they completely ignored the solo player experience... No they didn't. Almost every single boss is best experienced either by yourself or with only 1 friend. If you find it too difficult there are tons of things to accommodate you. Volt goat chaud-froid, Wolfgang, catapults, houndius, followers, gunpowder, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 57 minutes ago, abrocator said: I think raid bosses are easier for a team earlier game but they are easier to farm as a solo player late game. Once a setup with BeeQueen or Dragon Fly is up you can just repeat. The reason that it’s easier to farm solo is that you get the loot aaaall to yourself. Having to fight the same boss over and over and over again so each player in the world gets a drop from it is honestly just tedious AF, it’s a Relic of DSTs past and video gaming in general, I mean as an example- Could you imagine playing Dead Island or Redfall where enemies only dropped items for the first player who gets to them?? You’d never have any weapons or Bullets or anything. Why DST does this is just Annoying & Not Fun… And I ALSO don’t think that the solo player getting to keep the loot all to themselves is Justification for why they need to remain to be hard and geared towards multiple players when fought Solo If you want to get technical: Bosses lock players out of ALOT of content they would otherwise be able to enjoy, take myself as an example: every time I’ve EVER fought Dragonfly I did it exclusively to craft her Statue and the Broodling Pet, but is fighting a 27,500 hp boss really worth doing just for some purely cosmetic items? Absolutely not… and I haven’t fought her again since. Dragonfly is being used as my example because she actually has a Multiplayer focused mechanic- and that’s if enough players are dealing damage to her she faints and drops to the ground so you can get in even MORE completely free no threat to you damage. So then why the hell is it designed like that?? It’s dead in seconds with a group of 6 as intended, but takes 20 days to kill Solo? (Obviously over exaggerated timings but you get the idea..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creatorofswamps Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 8 hours ago, Gashzer said: Toadstool wrecks followers but thats ok, followers shouldnt help with all bosses. * the merm guards giggle from around the corner* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 48 minutes ago, Cheggf said: No they didn't. Almost every single boss is best experienced either by yourself or with only 1 friend. If you find it too difficult there are tons of things to accommodate you. Volt goat chaud-froid, Wolfgang, catapults, houndius, followers, gunpowder, etc. I've never found Bee Queen, (Misery) Toadstool, Crab King and Ancient Fuel Weaver enjoyable in solo fights. It's just designed for a group of players: let alone the ridiculous stats, the special attacks that requires morethan 1 player or multitasking, which many is not good at. Have a look at Fuel Weaver, he uses the immunity shield every 20s! Why...? I only get 6 or 7 hits before starting to clearing unseen hands. This "kill the unseen hands" mini game is just tedious and boring. I don't want to cheese but there are no alternatives for solo players. The fight is just dragged too long and I'm enjoying pressing F key for 10 min Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 8 minutes ago, _zwb said: It's just designed for many players: let alone the ridiculous stats, the special attacks that requires many players or you do multitasking, which many is not good at. Look at Fuel Weaver, he uses the immunity shield every 20s! Why...? I only get 6 or 7 hits before starting to clearing unseen hands. This is just tedious. Psst!... Hey _zwb! Recruit me and some of my bros and we will F up ancient fuelweaver with you. ps. Or..... Git Gud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 1 minute ago, Gashzer said: Psst!... Hey _zwb! Recruit me and some of my bros and we will F up ancient fuelweaver with you. ps. Or..... Git Gud I have houndius shootius/void walking glitch if I have to cheese I can kill fuel weaver solo legitimately, I've done it a lot of times but still, it's tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 1 minute ago, _zwb said: I have houndius shootius/void walking glitch if I have to cheese I can kill fuel weaver solo legitimately, I've done it a lot of times but still, it's tedious. Using followers isnt cheese tho. Cheese == exploit. Followers arnt exploits. Otherwise wurt, webber and wickerbottom are cheater characters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 3 minutes ago, Gashzer said: Using followers isnt cheese tho. Cheese == exploit. Followers arnt exploits. Otherwise wurt, webber and wickerbottom are cheater characters I know it's not cheating but it doesn't feel as legit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosuko Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 I definitely think bosses could be designed better to accommodate various amounts of players similar to Klaus BUT I think most bosses are alright as the game is. Most of the tough bosses are a bit of a challenge in juggling different tools solo, but that is part of the fun. The main area I think the bosses go wrong for solo play are things like healing (ck healing is WAY over the top, and AFW can almost fully reset himself if you mess up) and sheer quantity of tasks like the number of shroom trees toad spawns (srsly even with weather pains its a LOT) Also if you make the AI better to where its not "just a swarm of dumb mobs" then you have a swarm of smart mobs and that kinda just makes it worse... tbh a lot of the content is probably too easy for 3-4 people to go through... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudoku Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 I'd like to followers get some more qol. Other than giving them more actions that they can do like rowing/farming I'd like it if after feeding a follower and recruiting them you can alt click them to tell them to stay stationary/follow. While stationary they ignore your actions, and then while in follower mode they have the current behavior of emulating you. This would allow some simple but still helpful management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 1 hour ago, Cheggf said: Fighting Dragonfly with multiple players is an enormous snoozefest. Literally just hold F and she dies in like 1 minute. No they didn't. Almost every single boss is best experienced either by yourself or with only 1 friend. If you find it too difficult there are tons of things to accommodate you. Volt goat chaud-froid, Wolfgang, catapults, houndius, followers, gunpowder, etc. I disagree many bosses mechanics are scaled to be fought with multiple people they're just not made durable enough to handle multiple people it tries to reach a middle ground in that sense and fails in more raid focused bosses in some areas. I know this is a controversial take but I feel like followers should have a cap per player in exchange for making the average follower stronger and wiser in combat. Gets rid of the overwhelm method, encourages investing into followers, and solves server lagging on mass follower recruitments. I'd include personal followers into the cap as well like duelists, abi, and grumble bees but give a slightly higher cap to webber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 1 hour ago, _zwb said: I've never found Bee Queen, (Misery) Toadstool, Crab King and Ancient Fuel Weaver enjoyable in solo fights. It's just designed for a group of players: let alone the ridiculous stats, the special attacks that requires morethan 1 player or multitasking, which many is not good at. Have a look at Fuel Weaver, he uses the immunity shield every 20s! Why...? I only get 6 or 7 hits before starting to clearing unseen hands. This "kill the unseen hands" mini game is just tedious and boring. I don't want to cheese but there are no alternatives for solo players. The fight is just dragged too long and I'm enjoying pressing F key for 10 min There are no special attacks that require more than one player. If you want to do the fights by yourself prepare better. Bring more items, better characters, etc. Use speed boosts to clear the Unseen Hands, then have a Weather Pain help you kill his little healing critters. Use catapults/houndius/Wolfgang/VGCF/Wendy/etc to increase your damage to make the fight shorter. Everything you want is literally already in the game if you put in the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeatAndRun Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 If only the followers can go between shards.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosuko Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 21 minutes ago, HeatAndRun said: If only the followers can go between shards.. No!! The surface rocklobster invasion of 2014 should never be relived !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 1 hour ago, Shosuko said: No!! The surface rocklobster invasion of 2014 should never be relived !!! The sinkholes are the only thing keeping us safe from their oppressive regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 7 hours ago, Cheggf said: There are no special attacks that require more than one player. If you want to do the fights by yourself prepare better. Bring more items, Crab king's healing literally needs at least 2 players to cnacel it, or you use weather pain. You play with other people or waste time in resource drain, how fun! It feels like "craft these items to win" rather than a fair challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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